Boges Posted November 28, 2012 Author Report Posted November 28, 2012 I can't really comment on that instance. From this article I googled up it does seem we supported his overthrow but weren't really on the ground getting rid of him. http://www.cbc.ca/ne...istide-bio.html In January 2004, on the bicentennial of Haiti's independence from France, the opposition — with U.S. support — called for Aristide's resignation, accusing him of corruption. Violent protests erupted on the streets and rebel forces began to take over parts of the country.Aristide and his party Fanmi Lavalas (FL), meanwhile, "relied on intimidation, violence and corruption to maintain themselves in power," Alex Dupuy writes in his 2007 book on Aristide, The Prophet and Power. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) The current demonstrations are precisely because of the Brotherhood's anti-democratic behaviour. That's nice and all but these aren't the same folks that voted him in I'm guessing. On that note, have you ever voted for the Liberals or the Conservatives, federally? God no. Because if you have, do you not think you should have known that both parties are explicitly guilty of subverting democratic will elsewhere? Well...so much for my blame n' guilt. I sleep like a baby and think only of fun on weekends. Preferably the large breasted variety. While they don't announce it, it's certainly no secret, and is uncontroversially the case; which begs your own question: you have been living with these parties in power all your life...so do you really expect us to believe you didn't know they were anti-democratic when it suits them? I've posted newspaper articles from the 1940s and earlier that clearly state the MB is a pro-fascist organization engaged in assassinations and other forms of terrorism. Do I have to go find them again?? Edited November 28, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bleeding heart Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) That's nice and all but these aren't the same folks that voted him in I'm guessing. I honestly couldn't say. I've posted newspaper articles from the 1940s and earlier that clearly state the MB is a pro-fascist organization engaged in assassinations and other forms of terrorism. Do I have to go find them again?? I wasn't even faintly disagreeing with you about the Brotherhood. I was opining that Western democrats tend to be rather..undemocratic, and that this is quite institutionalized. The difference is in the domestic sphere, in which political behaviours are profoundly restrained, at least in most ways. Internationally, it's a different matter. Edited November 28, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Boges Posted November 28, 2012 Author Report Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) Well Governments want the interests of their people served first and foremost. So if a West-friendly dictator has to be installed to maintain peace and OUR interest, I suppose a pragmatist might see that as just. Hypocritical possibly but there are no easy answers in dealing with nations that don't have the history of pluralism that we do. Edited November 28, 2012 by Boges Quote
bleeding heart Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 I can't really comment on that instance. From this article I googled up it does seem we supported his overthrow but weren't really on the ground getting rid of him. http://www.cbc.ca/ne...istide-bio.html That's my understanding, too. But we can't, obviously, be beholden to some principle of "supporting democracy." That doesn't even make sense. As for Aristide's alleged thuggishness...it could well be true (though not for certain), but is not relevant to his overthrow; those we supported in his place were worse in every sphere...except for obedience to Northern/Western interests, which is required to earn the label "moderate," an otherwise meaningless word. All we have to do to udnerstand how such subversion of the democratic will is treacherous and bad is to imagine the unthinkable: imagine a group of more powerful nations doing it to us. There is exactly zero difference in the two scenarios. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
bleeding heart Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 Well Governments abroad want the interests of their people served first and foremost. So if a West-friendly dictator has to be installed to maintain peace and OUR interest, I suppose a pragmatist might see that as just. A pragmatist who has no belief, none whatsoever, in the principles of democracy. Period. (So why have democracy at all? Since it's pointless at best, dangerous at worst?) No one else will countenance it, except perhaps in extreme hypotheticals that simply do not apply to most of the cases we could discuss. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
DogOnPorch Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 Well Governments want the interests of their people served first and foremost. So if a West-friendly dictator has to be installed to maintain peace and OUR interest, I suppose a pragmatist might see that as just. Hypocritical possibly but there are no easy answers in dealing with nations that don't have the history of pluralism that we do. Yes...OUR interests...which don't amount to a hill o' beans in this NWO of our enemy is my friend type of thinking. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Boges Posted November 28, 2012 Author Report Posted November 28, 2012 Democracy works fine here. We've had centuries of practice though. Egypt electing the MB isn't the problem, it's the fact that the electorate acts surprised when the party they elected acts like they have a track-record of acting. And it's not even really a problem, it's more of an "I told you so" moment because this result was totally predictable. I wish I could have put money on it somewhere. Also, as far as I can tell, the Arab Spring in Egypt had little interference from the West. Libya is different but in that instance Democracy was NEVER being defended. I think the West backed the rebels because the instability in Libya was bad for bidness in Europe and we all know how bad it already is there. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 Did you ever ask yourself why Morsi did what he did? Did you ever listen to his explanation before jumping at his throat? The old-guard judiciary was poised to dissolve the Constitutional Committee and destroy all hope for carrying the revolution forward. This is the reason he issued a decree putting his decrees above judicial review. At least that's his explanation. Shouldn't we give him the time he's requested, which is a couple of a months, before coming to the conclusion that he's worse than Mubarak? Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Boges Posted November 28, 2012 Author Report Posted November 28, 2012 Did you ever ask yourself why Morsi did what he did? Did you ever listen to his explanation before jumping at his throat? The old-guard judiciary was poised to dissolve the Constitutional Committee and destroy all hope for carrying the revolution forward. This is the reason he issued a decree putting his decrees above judicial review. At least that's his explanation. Shouldn't we give him the time he's requested, which is a couple of a months, before coming to the conclusion that he's worse than Mubarak? It's not us he has to worry about, it's the people in his own country who are doing the whole protest thing again. Clearly people in Egypt aren't convinced he's sincere. Quote
bleeding heart Posted November 29, 2012 Report Posted November 29, 2012 Did you ever ask yourself why Morsi did what he did? Did you ever listen to his explanation before jumping at his throat? The old-guard judiciary was poised to dissolve the Constitutional Committee and destroy all hope for carrying the revolution forward. This is the reason he issued a decree putting his decrees above judicial review. At least that's his explanation. Shouldn't we give him the time he's requested, which is a couple of a months, before coming to the conclusion that he's worse than Mubarak? I make no claim that he's worse than Mubarak. As you say, that's premature, to say the least. In fact, he deserves some credit for a couple of things already: helping with the ceasefire in Gaza, and being willing to absolutely denounce the Syrian government...while in the company of Syria's chief ally. My criticism of Morsi is based on the fact that Egyptian revolutionaries themselves are angered at the anti-democratic move. If he turns out to be a tyrant, that certainly overshadows whatever diplomatic benefits he's responsible for. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Argus Posted December 1, 2012 Report Posted December 1, 2012 (edited) I wasn't even faintly disagreeing with you about the Brotherhood. I was opining that Western democrats tend to be rather..undemocratic, and that this is quite institutionalized. People are often confused about what Democracy is all about. Democracy does not equal freedom. Democracy is a means to an end, not an end in itself. You can have democracy without freedom. Witness the Imperial Russian Empire under Emperor Putin. Edited December 1, 2012 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 1, 2012 Report Posted December 1, 2012 A pragmatist who has no belief, none whatsoever, in the principles of democracy. Period. I wouldn't say 'no' interests, but I certainly don't refer democracy the way so many do. As you might gather from my sig I don't have a lot of respect in the intelligence of the today's flighty electorate, who rarely know what they're doing or who they're voting for or why. Give me a good dictatorship, run by me, and I'd be happy. (So why have democracy at all? The purpose of democracy is to periodically boot out the incompetent crooks the electorate put in earlier, of course. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 All porn is made by Jews to corrupt Muslims. Note reference to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhDhEIiMWgw Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 Why is this person's testimony relevant, though ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 Why is this person's testimony relevant, though ? He's part of the new democratic Arab Spring in Egypt. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 He's part of the new democratic Arab Spring in Egypt. How so ? Is he a citizen of Egypt ? A member of the government ? Just a cleric or ... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 How so ? Is he a citizen of Egypt ? A member of the government ? Just a cleric or ... ...or what? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 ...or what? Or somebody who matters to this debate ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 Or somebody who matters to this debate ? Oh...you want ME to explain Egyptian rational. Ok...here goes. This is a well known rabble-rouser often found railing against Christains and Jews. The new Tahrir TV channel funded 'privately' by the MB broadcasts him and other examples of human filth on a daily basis. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 Oh...you want ME to explain Egyptian rational. Ok...here goes. This is a well known rabble-rouser often found railing against Christains and Jews. The new Tahrir TV channel funded 'privately' by the MB broadcasts him and other examples of human filth on a daily basis. Ok. Well, how about we ignore him then ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 Ok. Well, how about we ignore him then ? I don't think we're the audience. Why do you wish to limit information coming out of Egypt? Shall I pass video links to you first for relevance approval? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 I don't think we're the audience. Why do you wish to limit information coming out of Egypt? Shall I pass video links to you first for relevance approval? That phrasing isn't accurate. I don't want to limit information, but I don't see why we should toss the word of every wingnut into the discussion. Imagine if we did that while discussing Canadian politics ? Now if the person has some influence then maybe we should take it into account - which is why I asked. My problem with this is that we're dealing with countries that are not mature democracies, and that have individuals who make ridiculous statements publicly. So if we quote every wingnut that makes a public statement, we distort the terms of the real debate at hand. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 This is being broadcast on Egyptian TV. The NEW TV station created post-'Arab-Spring'. That vid was from last week. Not some vague point in time long-long ago and far-far away. You just don't like the ugliness of it...and I don't blame you. Welcome to the new Egypt. Are you making any plans to visit? I'm not. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 This is being broadcast on Egyptian TV. The NEW TV station created post-'Arab-Spring'. That vid was from last week. Not some vague point in time long-long ago and far-far away. You just don't like the ugliness of it...and I don't blame you. Welcome to the new Egypt. Are you making any plans to visit? I'm not. Well... I'm not convinced that this means anything at all. There's a steady stream of crackpots and I need to be convinced of their relevance before I decide that this means anything. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
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