Canadians needs a bilingual education

[I miss Reagan]

Here here.  Trying to make the French in Canada happy is akin to trying to deal with the Palestinians.  They will never be happy until they get the whole pie.

Someone can make that equally ridiculous claim for the Israelis. Please lose the racism.

Give me a break. Don't accuse me of racism. Bill Clinton mediated a deal with Yasser Arafat that gave him 95% of his demands and he rejected it. Israel has been more than fair. I'll cut you some slack though, perhaps you attend Concordia?

[kimmy]

That doesn't make sense. Kids are taught lots of things in that they may or may not use later on.

Trust me if you learn French, and later on you visit France you will have a great appreciation for knowing French. So many more doors will be opened for you. 

Sure, that makes a tremendous amount of sense. Learn French, in case you decide to visit France some day. While we're at it, we should probably have kids learn Turkish (in case they visit Turkey some day) and demolitions (in case they ever need to defuse a bomb.)

Is the case for French so weak that we have to consider peoples' future travel plans to justify it?

Why do you think their is such a demand for French immersion in Western Canada? Are all these people wrong? Of course not. They have a vision for their kids, and it is just too bad the rest of the country hasn't quite grasped it yet. But they will. 

Or, maybe they're just keeping their bases covered in case some future act of stupidity by the Federal government results in further discrimination against unilingual Anglos.

I realize we are dealng with yah hoos here, but it is nevertheless quite disturbing.

Hot dog eaters is a good way to describe them.

We'll keep comments like this in mind next time you're wondering why people can't be more courteous.

It's a typical response for people like you to try and label people who disagree with them as "yahoos" or bigots or rednecks. Usually it's a sign that you're running out of ideas.

-kimmy

[Black Dog]

Nothing to add, really, but I think Argus and IMK make pretty cute couple.

[seabee]

It's time for the French to accept their loss on the Plains of Abraham. It's time for the French to accept the fate of the French language, it's dying. Quit trying to keep it on life support

British colonials in North America have been repeating this mantra to the french-speaking conquered for more than two centuries now.

In English!

To french-speaking people!

D'oh!

[seabee]

Trying to make the French in Canada happy is akin to trying to deal with the Palestinians. They will never be happy until they get the whole pie.

« the French in Canada »; there are very few of them, as nearly all the French are in... France (where else?).

D'oh!

French-speaking people in Canada are generally called French-Canadians outside Québec, and Québécois in Québec. And there also are the Acadians in the Maritimes.

Historically, English-speaking presence in present-day Canada can be accounted for by one, and only one, thing, violence, at times genocidal. The only legitimacy for this violence is that "Might makes right". The 1757-1760 conquest of Canada, one of the colonies part of New-France, resulted in the dispossession of the Canadiens. In other words, armed robery. So, yeah, the victims reclaim what was stolen from them. What is so surprising about that. Wouldn't anyone in the same position want the same thing?

[August1991]

It is hard to imagine a country where children do not study a second or third language. Even in the US, children study a second language.

Learning another language opens a different view of the universe and ultimately makes one more tolerant. This past summer, many Canadian kids spent time abroad or in Canada in various language exchange programs. These are memories and anecdotes the kids will remember their whole lives.

In Europe and Asia, it is common to meet people who speak three or more languages. And the fluency level is often very good. About 75% of Dutch and Swedes speak English and a high percentage speak German as well.

What second or third language to learn?

Japanese and Chinese are difficult languages for a westerner. French and Spanish at least have some points in common with English. In addition, French is used in Canada.

I doubt whether English Canadians learning French will make a big difference in any future referendum (although Parizeau often refers to that weekend in Montreal in 1995...)

However, if English Canadians had an appreciation of the situation of the French language in North America, the federalist case in Quebec might be made easier.

Trying to make the French in Canada happy is akin to trying to deal with the Palestinians.  They will never be happy until they get the whole pie.

No one is afraid to take a bus in Montreal because of bulky kids. The whole pie? What possible pie are you talking about?

The only legitimacy for this violence is that "Might makes right". The 1757-1760 conquest of Canada, one of the colonies part of New-France, resulted in the dispossession of the Canadiens.

You don't have to go back to 1760. Canadian history since 1760 is largely a series of efforts to assimilate the French speaking minority. These were not successful.

Nothing to add, really, but I think Argus and IMK make pretty cute couple.

Are they a number yet?

[seabee]

You don't have to go back to 1760. Canadian history since 1760 is largely a series of efforts to assimilate the French speaking minority. These were not successfu

This is totally correct. In fact attempted assimilation really backfired; it is what gave rise to the idea of Québec's independance.

It's time for the English (in Canada) to accept the battle on the Plains of Abraham Martin was only a battle, and that the war has not been won yet. It's time for the English to accept the fate of the English language, it's only good as a second language.

[RB]

well even when English is the first language there is no guarantee that people are actually successful or will be successful

but here is what i think that bilingual education is a better alternative to immersion especially in Quebec.

And in fact because this Canada is so rooted in its two cultures that the country's interest is best service by some larger scale institutional support system like the entire country learns the two languages then you are Canadian - I like that

Now i have some very recent experience with the school and their French program as my kid is registered in the French immersion program, so for this fall an issue of transportation arised who pays

- and one question asked was which school system I support

- well as it winds up my issue is closed and much to my liking based on some polictics.

so where is an English school that the child can attend oppose to the French immersion?

ok so no English school around no problem we will bus her for FREE to the French Immersion program

It reminded me of the time I showed up in court to dispute the a cop car hitting my boss's car, it was about some white line on the road that was suppose to be there - that incident was closed also much to my liking

But, I suspect the gentleman disputing his kid attending the French Immersion program is very much like those white lines and will be to his liking.

[caesar]

This is the essence of the issue. In practical terms, the two languages cannot be treated the same way.

We don't live on a polyglot continent; we live on a largely English-speaking continent. If there is any chance for Quebec to remain part of Canada, the rest of Canada must understand this.

NoT English Canada; French Canada must realize the facts.

If we lived in Quebec, Ontario or other Eastern Canada locations; then it would be adviseable to learn French.

French is not one of the leading languages used in international trade; therefore we in BC would be wise to learn one of the Asian languages; the second most used language in BC and often required for employment.

[August1991]

NoT English Canada; French Canada must realize the facts.

Let me lower the temperature. French Canada understands the facts, extremely well.

If we lived in Quebec, Ontario or other Eastern Canada locations; then it would be adviseable to learn French.

You are right. But many Canadians don't live near Quebec, as you note. So, that's not a good reason to learn French. I agree.

French is not one of the leading languages used in international trade; therefore we in BC would be wise to learn one of the Asian languages; the second most used language in BC and often required for employment.

Japanese? Chinese? Russian? Korean?

Are you clueless? Let me explain. Children in BC should learn a second (or third) language. Why? Because learning another language means opening a different box to existence.

The issue is not "leading language". The issue is thinking outside the box, but in a way that does not discourage.

It's hard to learn Japanese, mathematics, Chinese or Korean.

Spanish and French are easier, and even useful. French is spoken in Canada and it has Les Misérables. Ever read it? Germinal, know it? In the original? Try it.

IME, English Canadians do well speaking French in front of Americans, and Japanese. Try it.

[Guest eureka]

I have yet tp see a post that has any relevance to the case in question. This is not about bilingualism: it is about the forced Francization of a child of English speaking parents.

This child has been in French immersion and the parents want him to continue but the Government of Quebec is not satisfied - no one is a Quebecker to the Nationalists who is not French. This forcible assimilation is one of the methods to assimilate the non-French population of Quebec.

The compromise reached through previous court challenges and in the Charter of Rights was that children of English speaking Canadians who move to Quebec are entitled to be educated in the language of choice. This is an attempt to subvert that rule.

And, it is racist.

It is a principle of international law that parents have the right to choose their childrens' education. This has been ignored in Canada for no other reason than to achieve peace with the Separatists.

The Freedom to Choose is an inalienable right except in Canada and other less civilized societies. Is it any wonder that half the English speaking of Quebec left the province?

[August1991]

I have yet tp see a post that has any relevance to the case in question. This is not about bilingualism: it is about the forced Francization of a child of English speaking parents.

If I understand, it is worse. The child is in French immersion but in an English school commission. The State wants to put the child into a French school system.

eureka, what power should the State have over children? Should children living in BC have the right to study in Arabic, and learn the Koran?

Should children in Quebec have the right to study in English?

Should children in Canada have the right to learn the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag?

I don't know. What restriction should the State impose? What right should we all defend? You seem upset that a child can't enrol in an English majority school. (The child will learn English, by the way.)

You raise a good question eureka.

[Guest eureka]

I believe in absolute Freedom of parental choice in language and education and religion. That does not include lerarning the American Pledge other than as an exercise in comparative studies. Americans in Canada can choose their language of education except in Quebec where they do not have the right except on temporary allowance. That is not a matter of linguistic discrimination but is an extra curricular matter.

Jewish schools in Quebec used to receive government funding until the language law application forced their conversion to French if they were to retain government funding. That is not part of this particular issue but it serves to demonstrate just how far Quebec has gone in its determination to convert Quebec into something it never was, a unilingual Francophone society.

This is all part of the language issue in quebec.

I believe and support bilingualism as far as it is practical. I believe Canada can only gain from that. The irony is that the organizations I belonged to in Quebec had always supported that and yet were forced to become the defenders of English and of Freedom of Choice in Quebec

The subject of the book "Partition" has come up a number of times. I knew both the authors well and one was a colleague of mine in the battle. Yet, I and the organization I belonged to did not give our outright support to the 11th. Province Movement. We regarded that as a fallback position if all Court and Political action failed.

Freedom of Choice in language of education is the only moral position that I can see. Second language education should be in all public schools.

Incidentally, it was amusing, and I once had some fun in the newspapers with this, that a certain PQ Minister of long ago sent his child to a Private school in England where French would have been only one subject amongst many.

[caesar]

Japanese? Chinese? Russian? Korean?

Are you clueless? Let me explain. Children in BC should learn a second (or third) language. Why? Because learning another language means opening a different box to existence.

No I am not clueless; are you.

yes we should but one that we will have use of; those languages are Japanese or Chinese. If Japanese or Chinese children can learn; so can we.

Mandarin is particular often required for many jobs here in BC. Why learn a language we will probably never have use for nor anyone to practise our skills on???

[August1991]

Incidentally, it was amusing, and I once had some fun in the newspapers with this, that a certain PQ Minister of long ago sent his child to a Private school in England where French would have been only one subject amongst many.

Let me think about your post in general.

But you are right about one point. Landry, Parizeau, Johnson, Bouchard, Bourassa, Marois have all sent kids to English/international school. True?

[Guest eureka]

I believe that is true but cannot be certain since I have been removed from direct contact for twenty years.

The one I was referring to was Jacques-Yvan Morin, the Education Minister at the time.

[Bakunin]

That is not part of this particular issue but it serves to demonstrate just how far Quebec has gone in its determination to convert Quebec into something it never was, a unilingual Francophone society.

This is false. Quebec was a french colony and english people immigrate after 1760. They mostly immigrate in ghetto in montreal.

I find quite amusing the fact that you are so frustrate about the assimilation of the english when we all know that Evrywhere else in canada except l'acadie, the french has been assimilate. An english person can go to english school if they want if there parent went to english school, i have english friend who went to both english and french system and they never had trouble with the government, in fact thei are still alive ! And they don't complaint, and you know what ? thei are sovregnist...

[Guest eureka]

Bakubin, you have shown over and over that you have no clue as to the reality of Quebec. Quebec was explored and settled in the main by English apeaking people. French settlement was confined to two river banks.

I once, at a public meeting, demonstrated this to Bernaed Landry. Landry shot back; "What about the Ohio Territory." I told him to tey to take that back from the Americans if he felt strong enough. He did not dispute the rest.

[Hawk]

You don't have to go back to 1760. Canadian history since 1760 is largely a series of efforts to assimilate the French speaking minority. These were not successful.

The only assimilation going on is inside the borders of Quebec, you dont see subjugation by government of minorities within Alberta, Ontario, etc etc. But go and try to open a private English Christian school in Montreal =p Good luck with that one.

It's time for the English to accept the fate of the English language, it's only good as a second language.

That statement has got to be the most blatantly ignorant statements I have ever heard. English isn't even remotely close to dying, if anything it is in danger of becoming TOO widespread (which in my opinion is good, since then I can go more places and understand what people are saying xD)

[Argus]

August1991.....that was an excellent post.

The bad news is that unfortunately most people who post here won't get it.

It is unfortunate how mean spirited people can become.

I realize we are dealng with yah hoos here, but it is nevertheless quite disturbing.

Hot dog eaters is a good way to describe them.

Oh Maplesyrup! So many of us can only dream of someday being capable of the heights of almost coherent eloquence and only somewhat vapid wisdom you show us so often! We are in awe of your ability to so nobly put forth cleverly unrealistic positions and defend them so forthrightly against all logic and common sense! Oh woe is us who cannot utterly ignore economic realities in the face of sheer petulant emotion!

We worship you, Maplesyrup. Truly.

[Argus]

We don't live on a polyglot continent; we live on a largely English-speaking continent. If there is any chance for Quebec to remain part of Canada, the rest of Canada must understand this.

You make it sound like Quebec leaving would be a bad thing.

Bon voyage!!!!!

Yaaaa! When Quebec goes so does Alberta! I like you Argus.

Actually, if Quebec went any seperatist sentiment in Alberta would evaporate.

[Argus]

Without sizeable French populations throughout the country there is no point in teaching French to kids because they will lose the language through lack of use within a few years of graduation.

That doesn't make sense. Kids are taught lots of things in that they may or may not use later on.

I am really not much interested in your ideas of what make sense or not. I have spoken, during the course of my own continuing French language education, with a number of French teachers, and they are unanimous. It is extremely difficult to keep up a second language which is so different from ones native tongue without constant use and exposure to it. It is easier for, say, a Frenchman to keep his knowledge of Spanish, for they are closely related languages. But for English and French, where the rules of grammar are almost complete opposites, you need to have constant exposure and use. I suggest you consult a French teacher.

Trust me if you learn French, and later on you visit France you will have a great appreciation for knowing French. So many more doors will be opened for you. 

I have no interest in spending billions on French language education so I can ask directions to the toilet in France, should I happen to go there. Your position was, I believe, that learning French would enable children to reach the top of government. I'm telling you that won't happen. French tests for the federal government are stringent. The majority of those who take them, people who have just graduated from the government's own French courses, fail to pass. You can't go by barely remembered tenses and verbs if you have the slightest hope of passing those tests.

In fact, most Francophones would have difficult with them.

Why do you think their is such a demand for French immersion in Western Canada? Are all these people wrong?

Yes. Well meaning, but quite wrong. Unless they plan to move to Ottawa or Quebec or New Brunswick.

[Argus]

It is hard to imagine a country where children do not study a second or third language.  Even in the US, children study a second language.

That's a lovely sentiment, but just a little off topic. I don't believe people are saying there should be no French language classes. Maplesyrup's demand is for all schools to be bilnigual, Ie, French immersion in rural Alberta.

Learning another language opens a different view of the universe and ultimately makes one more tolerant.

Uhm, I can tell you that most of the people I work with are bilingual, and I haven't detected anything which suggests a larger world view or greater tolerance among any of them. Just like most people in North America, they are focused on their own little worlds, don't read much, and are suspicious of those who aren't like them. None of them, for example, is terribly fond of visible minorities, particularly Blacks, mostly because almost all our visible minorities are immigrants and so much street crime seems to come from Blacks (also immigrants).

In Europe and Asia, it is common to meet people who speak three or more languages.  And the fluency level is often very good.  About 75% of Dutch and Swedes speak English and a high percentage speak German as well.

And people on Polynesian islands all tend to know how to dive and fish and sail boats. So why can't we all learn, too!? Well, for one thing, they're on the water and we aren't. Likewise, those people you talk about in Asia and Europe live in a polyglut community where they are constantly exposed to other languages, where they will meet people who use other languages every day, sometimes many times a day. Need creates learning. But there is no such need here, and people in BC and Alberta are going to meet someone speaking French perhaps, well, perhaps never, unless they go to Quebec. Now if you want to teach them Mandarin...

However, if English Canadians had an appreciation of the situation of the French language in North America, the federalist case in Quebec might be made easier.

Learning French is not going to teach Anglos why Francophones are so emotionally attached to their language. Anglos are never going to understand that. I, for one, have no particular attachment to English. The possibility my descendants might one day be speaking another language does not keep me up at nights. And why Frenchmen give a crap what language their great grandchildren will be watching TV in is beyond me.

The only legitimacy for this violence is that "Might makes right". The 1757-1760 conquest of Canada, one of the colonies part of New-France, resulted in the dispossession of the Canadiens.

You don't have to go back to 1760. Canadian history since 1760 is largely a series of efforts to assimilate the French speaking minority. These were not successful.

If the English majority had wanted to assimilate them, had thought it worth the effort involved, they would have done so. Just ask the Irish. But the French were given protected status, as was their language and religion and schools. If that hadn't been the case now there'd be as many French speakers here as there are Gailic speakers in Ireland.

[caesar]

That's a lovely sentiment, but just a little off topic. I don't believe people are saying there should be no French language classes. Maplesyrup's demand is for all schools to be bilnigual, Ie, French immersion in rural Alberta. 

I believe it is still necessary to have at least 2 years of a second language to attend university. That second language need not be French. I will repeat; in Eastern Canada or for those planning on working in Eastern Canada; French would be a good choice. However, in BC and probably other western provinces; it would probably be a smarter choice to chose one of the more common second languages used here and internationally in trade.

I read somewhere that more people from China have learned English than those who speak English in the USA.

Someone said; we are taught much in school that we never use; I agree, but I think that should change and teach our children more relevant things.

We need to look at some of the mandatory subjects taught. I loved math but what use is geomety, trigonomety, or calculus for many? Better to teach more economic courses and leave those subjects as options. I did not include algebra; I have found that using the principles of algebra can be used to figure out many things.

[Argus]

But, I suspect the gentleman disputing his kid attending the French Immersion program is very much like those white lines and will be to his liking.

The gentleman involved is not disputing his kid attending French immersion. He WANTS his kid to attend French immersion. The Quebec government is trying to stop him, insisting he go to French only school. The guy wants his kid to learn French. Any parent in Quebec would. But he does not want his kid, who at present speaks no French, to be dumped into an all French school.