Canadians needs a bilingual education

[caesar]

So tell me... do I have the right to an education in French and federal services in French in my country, yes or no?

Yes, you have been given that right. We English speaking Canadians in the west that have more viable reasons to learn a second language other than French have that right. too. Why should we waste time and money learning a language that we will never use. Perhaps if French speaking Quebeckers were willing to give us the respect and right to learn in whichever language that we find most suits our needs in Quebec; we would have more sympathy for your minority status. The natives of this country had more rights to their original language having status than did French Canadians. They do not whine separate every 5 minutes. Grow up Quebec; get with the program. Love us or leave us; we are tired of the whining and our federal governments bribes and peace offerings at the expense of the ROC.

[RB]

the parents know their child and what they want for their child. This is not even a school decision; this is a government initiative. The child is Canadian citizen and should be allowed to learn in whatever language best meets his needs..

Every parent wants what is good for the child and we as parents have a tendency to make some judgement based on what is familiar and other traits such as:

our limitations

own judgement

our influence by experience

our knowledge

our scholarly inclinations

our prestigious job

our family life and tradition

the size of our family

and the resources and time available to proceed with court hearings

we also base our judgement on these:

our education disadvantage

or low income status

our single family home

our deprived self

or perhaps

being in the educational system in the 1970’s oppose to 2000’s lots have changed since then

I am glad we live in a country where there is access to freedom of choice.

The gentleman in questions contends that his child should have a choice to attend a school program the parent wishes.

The scenario of his being in government allows me to believe this is more of politics than it is good for the child but, in the end can set a major precedent for those very choices of folks wanting to choose mostly unwisely or wisely.

I am of the opinion that if the school system and educators think the child will benefit in learning this one way, like it works now and has worked in the past and if they have had some track record for saying this then where is the sin

[CANADIEN]

Stoker,

The Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (which is the legal name of her kingdom, btw) is indeed also our Queen. Her Majesty the Queen Elisabeth II... the same one who signed in 1982 the Constitutional Act, dclaring English and French to be Canada's two officiakl languages. The descendant of Her Majesty Queen Victoria, who signed the BNA of 1867, which give equal status to English and French in the federal Parliament and Courts. Both being descendants of King George III, who signed the Quebec Act (1774). Are we now clear about where our BILINGUAL laws stem from?

You want to prove that Gaellic is part of the Canadian identity? Do it. Like I would cry foul if that was established, with all the inherent rights.

As for your suggestion that Quebec pays for services and education in French throughout Canada... come back to me the day I, as an Ontarian, can choose to pay my taxes to the Quebec government.

[caesar]

Following the untimely death of her father King George VI on February 6, 1952, The Princess Elizabeth acceded to the Throne as Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and was separately proclaimed Queen of Canada.

Queen Elizabeth II of Canada by the way; use a z not a s

[caesar]

. Are we now clear about where our BILINGUAL laws stem from?

That made Canada officially biligual it had nothing to do with the ridiculous laws in Quebec.

[CANADIEN]

Caesar,

Pass me the Kleenex as I cry.

First, nothing in the Constitution or federal prevents ANY provincial government from dropping French from the curriculum in their English schools. In fact, nowhere is French even a requirement for getting a high school diploma (except perhaps New Brunswick, and of course Quebec). So, if you don't want French in the English schools of your province, go to those who put it there: your provincial government. And have it changed. Like I would give a darn about it.

As for the excuse that opposition to the rights of Francophones outside Quebec is the fault of the Quebec government, give me a break. We both know perfectly well that violations of constitutional rights, banning of French schools, and outright opposition to any French being spoken outside of Quebec did not start in the 1970's, but a long time before that. Laws, in Quebec or elsewhere, that limit freedom are not worth the paper they're written on. But they should not serve as an excuse for denying others their rights.

[CANADIEN]

Ceasar,

I would be the last person to equate official bilinguism with Quebec Language Laws. I'll leave that to those (not yet seen on this board, I will readily admit) who claim that Quebec laws are a precursor of what will happen in the rest of the country because of official bilingualism. And I'll that to those who use Quebec's laws as a facade to mask their own bigotry.

[caesar]

As for the excuse that opposition to the rights of Francophones outside Quebec is the fault of the Quebec government, give me a break. We both know perfectly well that violations of constitutional rights, banning of French schools, and outright opposition to any French being spoken outside of Quebec did not start in the 1970's, but a long time before that. Laws, in Quebec or elsewhere, that limit freedom are not worth the paper they're written on. But they should not serve as an excuse for denying others their rights.

Where besides Quebec are any French schools banned???

We have French Immersion schools (private). We just do not fund French schools as there is not enough students to make it a viable choice outside of Quebec.

Quebec is the only province that makes laws to cram Frem

nch down English throats or immigrants that realize that English is the language they will need in the future for their children to have a freer choice of employment in North America

[Guest eureka]

Unfortunately, "laws that limit freedom" are worth the paper they are written on. They are not paper tigers.

The Constitution gives governments the ability to limit freedom even when the limitation is illegal and arbitrary through the ocerride of the "Notwithstanding Clause."

All provinces cannot ban French schooling. Manitoba and New Brunswick cannot. I doubt that Ontario could now since the Charter gives the right.

Quebec is in a different position to any province. While it cannot interfere with religion, it could, theoretically, in its own deliberate misinterpretation of the Constitution prohibit English schooling. This is what is wrong with Constitutional application in Canada as very clearly, Quebec does not have that power. French was given equal status with English in Quebec in 1867. That is equal only, and Quebec was understood to be a dual language society.

Quebec has its own Charter of Rights jsut as other provinces as well as a federal Charter. Where a Charter exists, a right cannot be taken away: only new rights can be granted. Quebec ignores this in its own Charter and misuses its presumed jurisdiction over Civil Rights to proscribe the English language.

[August1991]

Queen Elizabeth II of Canada by the way; use a z not a s

Not in French, caesar, her name is spelled Élisabeth. Noblesse oblige, I guess.

Cdn Dept Natl Defence

[CANADIEN]

Caesar,

Although it is entirely true that French schools exist legally today (a claim I most certainly did not or would not make), that was not always the case.

Let's take, for example, Ontario. There, the use of French as a language of instruction (that is the language used to teach non-language subjects or to communicate with teachers) was curtailed starting in the 1880's culminating in Regulation 17 (1912) that prohibited it outright beyond Grade II. That Regulation ceased to be enforced in 1927, and was officially withdrawn in 1942. There was no publicly founded French high school in the province until the 1960's, and more than one school board fought tooth and nail against more French schools. I believe we would see the same history if we looked at other provinces.

BTW, two tinbits of information. First, public (and in some provinces, Roman Catholic) French schools throughout the country are publicly founded. Second, many English-speaking school boards throughout the country provide French immersion... not just private schools. Two facts that will readily be confirmed by anyone who thinks that French has no place in this country.

Finally, what do you think of someone who denounce Quebec's language laws but oppose the rights of French-speaking Canadians living outside of Quebec? I call them hypocrites.

[CANADIEN]

Nah, August... that's the one word where I always confuse the two languages LOL

[CANADIEN]

Eureka,

No province, Quebec included, can prohibit schools in the minority language. What Quebec unfortunately does and can is to limit who can access it.

[caesar]

Not in French, caesar, her name is spelled Élisabeth. Noblesse oblige, I guess.

She is English; spell it right; the way she spells it.

Elisabeth may be the French equivalent but since her birth certificate spell it with the z that is the correct spelling. If my parents named me William; I would want and expect to be called William not Quilliam or whatever is a French equivalent.

[August1991]

She is English; spell it right; the way she spells it.

This is a really dumb debate but it does show that the Queen, like some cities in the world, gets to have different spellings for her name. The Artist formerly known as Prince must be jealous.

I refer you to this communique from the British Embassy in Paris.

[Stoker]

The Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (which is the legal name of her kingdom, btw) is indeed also our Queen. Her Majesty the Queen Elisabeth II... the same one who signed in 1982 the Constitutional Act, dclaring English and French to be Canada's two officiakl languages. The descendant of Her Majesty Queen Victoria, who signed the BNA of 1867, which give equal status to English and French in the federal Parliament and Courts. Both being descendants of King George III, who signed the Quebec Act (1774). Are we now clear about where our BILINGUAL laws stem from?

Yeah, crystal.......so whats your point? That the Queen (and other past Monarchs) that sits on the throne of England allowed the French colonists to keep their culture?

Perhaps you should go read the paragraphs where I refer

to the Queen, so as to understand the context that they were used in.

You want to prove that Gaellic is part of the Canadian identity? Do it. Like I would cry foul if that was established, with all the inherent rights.

No I don't.........You see, call me crazy, I don't believe in forcing my culture onto other people. I also wouldn't feel right having other people (not relating to my culture) paying for the annual Highland Games or any other Scottish event.............

As for your suggestion that Quebec pays for services and education in French throughout Canada... come back to me the day I, as an Ontarian, can choose to pay my taxes to the Quebec government.

Never suggested that Quebec should pay for services across Canada........just in Quebec and the ROC shouldn't have to pay a cent towards maintaining their culture.

What would make me happy, would be that all the money that is spent on bilingualism across Canada at the fedral level be stopped, given back to the provinces, and allow the provinces to pay for any bilingual programs on their own.........Hell if you could do it, I'd even let the descision making go to the level of the municipality and school district.

If the Provinces were allowed to keep the funding that they pay towards bilingualism, how many of the ten provinces do you think would maintain bilingual programs or instead put that money towards say, healthcare?

[caesar]

My ancestors, pioneers in this country were Scottish and Irish. Bring on the Highland Games. We have as much history as the French.

[Stoker]

My ancestors, pioneers in this country were Scottish and Irish. Bring on the Highland Games. We have as much history as the French.

Nah, I'd prefer it being private funds.........that way we wouldn't have to worry about some tree hugger objecting to the caber toss

Joking aside, i wouldn't want an Indo Canadian having to pay for my "cultural day", for the same reasons that i wouldn't want to pay for his.

[CANADIEN]

Stoker,

Thank you for clarifying for me and all of us that there should not be any funding (according to you) for government services in French or French schools outside Quebec. After all, we Francos should either stay in Quebec or assimilate, right?

As for your suggestion that each and every province should decide on its own in which language(s) government services are provided and whether or not there should be minority language schools... You realize of course that, being equal to the other provincial governments, the Quebec government would then be entitled to go further that it does now and close all English schools within its borders if it saw fit. Would be interesting to see what you'd do then: still say it's strictly a provincial business, or declare that Quebec doesn't have the same rights as the other provinces?

[CANADIEN]

And my point about her Majesty, Stoker, is that, since she and her ancestors have seen fit to acknowledge the rights of their French-speaking subjects in Canada, it is the height of absurdity to use the fact she is British to claim that English should be this country's sole official language.

[CANADIEN]

I am pretty sure that, if we looked at the funding of most Highland Games in Nova Scotia or elsewhere in the country, we'd find some level of government funding. And why not? They are good for the local economy and they generate taxes.

But the issue here is not whether or not cultural events, whether they are Highland Days on Cape Breton Island, an Indian Day in Vancouver, the Franco festival in Ottawa or the Beaches Jazz Festival in Toronto, should be funded. Could be an interesting debate, if extended to things such as funding for theatres, operas, film production.

But it's not what we are discussing here. What we are discussing here is the right of Canadians to choose to go to a publicly funded French or English school and to receive government services in French or English, as they individually decide to do. And it is clear that there are some who believe that this right should exist in English only, others who think it should be in French only in Quebec and in English only elsewhere, and others who know that right should fully exist all across our great country.

[caesar]

Public education in the second language should only be publicly funded where a need exists or is wanted and is economically feasible.

But that is not really the question. The question is where the two schools are available who choses where the student can attend; the parents or the government.

Choice or dictatorship???? We vote student/parent choice.

[CANADIEN]

Public education in the minority language should be available unless there is no demand for it or it is not practically feasable.

And how do you define "need", Caesar? I define it as having parents and students who want an education in French (outside Quebec) or in English (in Quebec).

Where it is wanted? Once again, the individual parents decide what they want.

As for the economic factor... Our Constitution already stipulates that the right to a publicly funded education in the minority language exists "where numbers justify it". It has been interpreted very largely (good thing), but I think most people here would agree it might not be very easy to set up an English school for one family living in Amqui, Quebec, about 80 km away from the nearest Anglophone community. And I sure wouldn't expect a French school in Fort Severn, Ontario.

So, it is clear that, unless the establishment of an English school in a particular location is not feasible, the Quebec government has no moral right to restrict access to publicly funded English schools. I have a problem with them doing it. And I have an even bigger problem when some hypocrites complain about it while denying me the equivalent right to access to publicly funded French schools in another province.

What do you have to say about THAT, Caesar?

[caesar]

And how do you define "need", Caesar? I define it as having parents and students who want an education in French (outside Quebec) or in English (in Quebec).

Well that need does not exist here in BC; not enough students for it to be economically feasible. So quit your whining.

[CANADIEN]

The DEMAND, and therefore the need, for publicly funded French schools in BC exists, as demonstrated by the fact they exist, Ceasar.

Whcih proves, as I suspected, that your denounciation of Quebec laws is nothing more than the windblowing I have come to expect from an hypocrite.