Teachers Start work-to-rule Today.. Refuse to talk to parents

[jacee]

Simple again... If a standardized course-load is not completed.. Then why? And how poorly was the instruction? Again, if the teacher can not pass a test by 90 percent... A demerit is awarded.. No variables...

As I said, it isn't simple at all.

But fortunately there is already a performance appraisal system in place for teachers, Fletch. It's mandated by law - ie, provincial legislation, defined by provincial regulations, and implemented under school board policies by principals/supervisors/superintendents.

Are you not aware of existing teacher performance appraisal Fletch?

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_020099_e.htm

Eta ...

Just curious ... what leads you to believe there is a problem with teacher performance? Can you provide any evidence of a problem that isn't already being addressed?

Edited November 14, 2012 by jacee

[Fletch 27]

As I said, it isn't simple at all.

But fortunately there is already a performance appraisal system in place for teachers, Fletch. It's mandated by law - ie, provincial legislation, defined by provincial regulations, and implemented under school board policies by principals/supervisors/superintendents.

Are you not aware of existing teacher performance appraisal Fletch?

http://www.e-laws.go...gs_020099_e.htm

Eta ...

Just curious ... what leads you to believe there is a problem with teacher performance? Can you provide any evidence of a problem that isn't already being addressed?

Jacee... My approach is NOT simply for "testing and evaluation"... Its a TOOL to allow techers a pay-icrease with them REDUCING the powers they have to impact our children negatively i.e: Work-to-Rule and striking... Please read my entire context of my proposal....Wht we have now does NOT workk..

Big Guy: I would have the teachers tested on the Course Curriculum.. If they Can not answer to the provincial standar to a 90% (same materials the students are instructed on).... then a demerit is issued.. may 2 if say the instructor get an 85%... This will bind the teachers to a full understanding of the materials and not "Instructing bt manual"... Anyone can regurgitate per verbatum any materials... its "Understanding" and being able to reply or respond to students....

Does that not seem fair and tangible?

[Bonam]

Big Guy: I would have the teachers tested on the Course Curriculum.. If they Can not answer to the provincial standar to a 90% (same materials the students are instructed on).... then a demerit is issued.. may 2 if say the instructor get an 85%... This will bind the teachers to a full understanding of the materials and not "Instructing bt manual"... Anyone can regurgitate per verbatum any materials... its "Understanding" and being able to reply or respond to students....

Does that not seem fair and tangible?

Testing teachers isn't gonna help. Even if a teacher understands the material (which I think is true for most teachers anyway since the material is so basic and trivial), doesn't mean that they are willing and able to teach it effectively and engagingly. My perception is that over the last few decades, teachers have gone from being respected professionals to commodity labor. And that's in part due to the way governments have been looking at the education system, and in part because of the teachers unions themselves. I for one don't see any way that the situation and mindset could go back, it seems like a permanent change.

My guess is that over the next several decades, the role of teachers will start to diminish, as first higher level classes and then progressively lower ones became taught in larger and larger parts through interactive computer software, pre-recorded videos by world-renowned instructors, peer-to-peer learning, and new techniques that will be enabled as our technology improves. This trend is already happening in universities, and it's only a matter of time before it's adopted by high schools for subjects like math and science and will then spread from there. A video lecture from a world-renowned lecturer is vastly more effective than a live one from a typical mediocre professor, and the same would be true for teachers.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Bonam

[jacee]

..Wht we have now does NOT workk..

Why do you say that? Some evidence please.

It's very expensive for taxpayers to change the current laws, regs and policies on teacher performance appraisal, as well as the negotiated collective agreements, the College of Teachers, etc etc ... just on the whim of someone who doesn't appear to be particularly well informed about any of this.

So ... if you're to have any credibility you'd better at least be able to outline what the problems are with the current system, as you see it.

[Fletch 27]

Why do you say that? Some evidence please.

It's very expensive for taxpayers to change the current laws, regs and policies on teacher performance appraisal, as well as the negotiated collective agreements, the College of Teachers, etc etc ... just on the whim of someone who doesn't appear to be particularly well informed about any of this.

So ... if you're to have any credibility you'd better at least be able to outline what the problems are with the current system, as you see it.

Simple Jacee... Look at whats happening in Ontario. a "Wage Freeze" is impacting students and Parents.. Thats broken enough an 74% of Ontario Residents AGREE! Did you not look at both my post and link to how Ontario resident were polled? 74% want this stopped.... THAT is evidense enough that it is broken.

Yes, 74%..... Can i ask what vested interest you have in these Unions? Are you an "Educator"? Why do you put teachers pay and pensions higher on the list than a Students given right to an education? Please, Do tell me what vested interest you have in this..

Outline: To much Union power to infuence pay and Impact the Ontario budget and defecit

To little responsibility placed on an "Educator" to ensure an education

No Accountability for poor results. A teacher Can NOT be fired for poor performance... Rape and impropper actions.. yes.. Performance no

I could go on and on...

[guyser]

No Accountability for poor results. A teacher Can NOT be fired for poor performance...

Sigh...

A teacher Can SO be fired for poor performance.

[jacee]

Simple Jacee... Look at whats happening in Ontario. a "Wage Freeze" is impacting students and Parents.. Thats broken enough an 74% of Ontario Residents AGREE! Did you not look at both my post and link to how Ontario resident were polled? 74% want this stopped.... THAT is evidense enough that it is broken.

Agree what? Evidence what?

Yes, 74%..... Can i ask what vested interest you have in these Unions? Are you an "Educator"? Why do you put teachers pay and pensions higher on the list than a Students given right to an education? Please, Do tell me what vested interest you have in this..

Absolutely none.

Outline: To much Union power to infuence pay and Impact the Ontario budget and defecit

To little responsibility placed on an "Educator" to ensure an education

No Accountability for poor results. A teacher Can NOT be fired for poor performance... Rape and impropper actions.. yes.. Performance no

I could go on and on...

Those are generalized opinions.

Do you have any facts, observations of problems?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Fletch,

I don't know why you are so angry at teachers. But I'd like to apologize on the behalf of teachers, since I come from a family of them. I hope you eventually realize that teachers are not the prime evil of our modern society.

[Michael Hardner]

MCC - you aren't going to win him over. He's in an admitted rage over the *slight* inconvenience that results from the current job action. A strike could push him over the edge, anger wise.

In any case, good for Fletch for articulating some suggestions for improvement. You can at least dialogue with that, as we have seen from this thread. And, if you care to see things from his perspective, you can see the types of things that would satisfy him as a consumer of public services. I applaud him for at least offering a path to compromise in this debate, as we have seen others simply say things like "fire the teachers" etc etc

[Hydraboss]

This discussion never goes anywhere. It has come up time and time again (http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=8313&hl=%2Bparkland+%2Bteacher), and the "pro" teacher/union side and the "anti" teacher/union side can never reach agreement - or even agreement to disagree. There is no middle ground on this. There are some (me included) that have absolutely zero respect for the tactics employed by the part time workers, and there are others (me not included) that think of them as the undying bastions of all that is good.

No middle ground.

Teachers are not accountable for themselves. Nor for their pay checks. They are an absolute burden to taxpaying society except as a babysitting service (and an expensive one at that). There are good ones no doubt - we just can't see them for all the masses of terrible ones out there.

[Wayward Son]

I have learned two things from the anti-teacher posters on MLW.

1) Teachers are vastly overpaid because anti-teacher posters calculate their hourly wage by dividing their salary into their teaching hours and, as it suits them here, claim that teachers do nothing else (well except for their first year, when they develop their lesson plans. Apparently all tests are marked by scanners, and I would assume that essays and other assignments must be graded by scanners too).

2) Despite teacher's only working during their teaching hours, once they work-to-rule to reduce some of their hours spent working outside of their teaching hours...which now that it suits the anti-teacher posters apparently now exist...it is a dangerous crisis and they must be fired.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Wayward Son

[Hydraboss]

1) Teachers are vastly overpaid. My personal problem with them is that they refuse to account for those hours so they can "get credit" for them in a CBA. If they work so damn many hours - prove it and get paid for them. Instead of just getting paid for "phantom" hours like they do now.

2) I could care less if they instigate "work to rule". Perfectly within their CBA. Let them do it. I don't consider them an essential service so I also couldn't care less if they go on strike.

My core issue with the part-time "profession" is that they always stand up and scream "it's about the children!!!!!" but ALWAYS settle the dispute by taking more money and less work hours. How is THAT about the children?

Hypocrites.

[Hydraboss]

As for marking essays............can you spell "prep periods"?

[Michael Hardner]

My core issue with the part-time "profession" is that they always stand up and scream "it's about the children!!!!!" but ALWAYS settle the dispute by taking more money and less work hours. How is THAT about the children?

That's the best part about MLW, though. We can ignore the mass media messages and talk about real issues here. I do think it's about the money, but how often is it not ? Answer: it almost always is. Maybe not when we're talking about class sizes and hours, but that's about money too in the end.

So, we all have ways to press buttons in negotiations - this is theirs. Also, if we're going to forgo the 'it's about the kids' argument at least some of the time then let's also forgo the rhetoric of the other side - 'taking kids hostage' etc.

[PIK]

OTTAWA — Already locked in a bitter contract dispute with the provincial government, Ottawa elementary teachers suffered another setback last week.

An Ontario Court quashed an arbitrator’s decision that would have given hundreds of them compensation for working between three and 10 minutes longer per day than their contract requires

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Elementary+teachers+lose+unreasonable+extra+extra+minutes+work/7549768/story.html#ixzz2CJR1JN48

How can some of the teachers not be embarressed by this sort of thing.

[Big Guy]

There is an updated version of the Education Act at:

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90e02_e.htm#BK489

[socialist]

let's hope gerard kennedy becomes the next liberal leader. he looks like he would restore our(teachers) faith in government and give us the right to negotiate.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/ontario-liberal-hopefuls-split-over-mcguintys-line-on-teachers/article5360046/

[Fletch 27]

let's hope gerard kennedy becomes the next liberal leader. he looks like he would restore our(teachers) faith in government and give us the right to negotiate.

http://www.theglobea...article5360046/

Yes, hes a great "Pander-er"... To Bad ontario has had enough of that....

[madmax]

let's hope gerard kennedy becomes the next liberal leader. he looks like he would restore our(teachers) faith in government and give us the right to negotiate.

http://www.theglobea...article5360046/

I believe it would be a foolish mistake for teachers to jump on the Liberal bandwagon. It would demonstrate to the public that their concerns are only that of self interest and not of the greater good. The Ontario LIberals have done significant damage to the economy, the labour market, and have a string of corrupt scandals involving billions and billions of boondoggles. The rest of the community is totally ticked off with the incompetent Liberal Direction,

Perhaps you might wish to take into consideration that the parents of the students have been economically pained by liberal policies and disconnect. Perhaps you might realize that it is because of these grossly incompetent and often self centred decisions, that the deficits at a record high, that there is little monies for services, and that in order to mask this incompentence a "crisis" was manufactured with the teachers.

But you seem all to willing to accept the incompetence.

The only reason that the Liberal Leadership is considering an olive branch is once again NOT about the teachers.

ITS ABOUT THE LIBERAL PARTY!

Its about saving their butts.

How is this any different then the decision to move the gas plants in Oakville when what was at stake was Liberal Party Seats.

How is this any different then the decision to orchestrate a by election to win a minority?

How is this any different then picking a fight with the teachers for Politicai gain?

If you can not see that this is NOT about teachers, but continues to be about the Ontario Liberals, then you're decision to settle for the Next Liberal saviour , is infact , a sellout to the rest of Ontario.

[Big Guy]

I think it is a mistake by the media, pundits and people on this board to assume that teachers are some kind of homogeneous group that is uni-political and responds as a group. I spent over 35 years in the profession and had eventually voted for NDP, Liberals and PC’s in different elections. While teachers share a common career they do not share equal political philosophies, the same financial status or the same vision of our society. Like all University graduates, I found my peers to be intelligent individuals who tried to be informed of the issues and vote accordingly.

I found that young teachers like any young people tend to be left leaning, the older ones more middle class, centrally positioned and those near the ends of their careers more right wing – and all of them voting accordingly. Personally, near the end of my career, I tended to vote with the party that appeared to allow me to protect my investments and take advantage of years of prudent financial management. There are many teachers in my immediate and extended family. I can guarantee that at the next election the votes will be spread fairly evenly among the three major political parties and perhaps even some fringe parties.

The vocal few who speak for the unions do not really reflect the diverse positioning of the whole profession. We have a secret ballot and the voting patterns of those in the teaching profession are pure speculation and cannon fodder for those with their own agendas.

[Fletch 27]

Exactly... And that is what Dalton opened up all day day care to 20 year old teachers who spent 1.5 years in a buffalo school to get the accreditation. More votes. Crappy teachers in the tune of thousands forbade measly vote on your tax dollar

[MiddleClassCentrist]

On twitter, it's rumoured that two public school boards have negotiated contracts with teachers.

It's also important to note that in this entire fiasco... even the supposedly "already accepted" Catholic system. NO CATHOLIC BOARDS have actually developed a contract.

[punked]

On twitter, it's rumoured that two public school boards have negotiated contracts with teachers.

It's also important to note that in this entire fiasco... even the supposedly "already accepted" Catholic system. NO CATHOLIC BOARDS have actually developed a contract.

Catholic school boards have a parasite clause. They can accept any contract knowing if another school board gets a better one they will have that contact instead of the one they agreed to. It is crazy they always agree first and wait for the other teachers to do the hard work of getting them a better deal.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Catholic school boards have a parasite clause. They can accept any contract knowing if another school board gets a better one they will have that contact instead of the one they agreed to. It is crazy they always agree first and wait for the other teachers to do the hard work of getting them a better deal.

Must be because of those strong Catholic ethics/morals they teach.

[CPCFTW]

Catholic school boards have a parasite clause. They can accept any contract knowing if another school board gets a better one they will have that contact instead of the one they agreed to. It is crazy they always agree first and wait for the other teachers to do the hard work of getting them a better deal.

Yes, doing the hard work of working less hard...