Ontario Principals Standing up for Students..

Michael Hardner · November 9, 2012

Also, Michael, you must have more interest in the unions position than having kids caught up in this to have your attitude.

Hi DF - to be honest, I would like to see them concede more. I would also like them to treat their own members better and for all sides to be smarter about strategy. What was McGuinty thinking ? It seems that in the end, they had no time to map out all of their options so they just brought the hammer down. Very poorly done.

I don't have any personal stake in what's going on at all. I do, however, bristle when I read simplistic arguments on here and sometimes I'll even play devil's advocate to try to squeeze some good argument blood out of a simplistic stone. That's all it is.

MiddleClassCentrist · November 10, 2012

I don't feel like Michael was supporting teachers. There is a clear difference in pointing out the flaws in one's argument, and supporting the opposing idea.

Big Guy · November 10, 2012

Over 10 years ago I retired from a 35 year career in public secondary school education. Since there are active teachers in my family, I have been closely watching recent developments in contract negotiations. I see that Ontario teachers, through their unions, are protesting at Queen’s Park and are now beginning “job actions” and threatening a full work-to-rule campaign. Yes, there are questions as to the legality of by-passing negotiations, tearing up contracts and/or imposing work and wage conditions. These questions will be resolved by the courts. The general perception by the public is that this is a disagreement about money.

Teacher union recent anti-government actions and statements are not endearing the public to their cause. In fact there is a danger that the general public will begin to view the teachers as an out-of-touch, spoiled group not prepared to accept part of the responsibility for our $28 billion deficit.

The last few teacher contract settlements have not been in proportion to the realities of the economy. While teachers were getting 3% annual wage increases, those in the private sector were taking salary decreases or losing jobs. In view of these previous settlements, I believe that the vast majority of the public does not consider a two year wage freeze and other concessions as an outrageous request. It seems more of a pay-back concession in an attempt to reflect the reality of this current recession.

To maintain public trust, public sympathy and successful long term bargaining, the teachers must carefully choose which battles to concede, which battles to fight and which battles to join. I believe that this battle is already lost. It is time to abandon it and save the energies for the next one.

I suggest that the teachers accept the pay freeze and other concessions as the unfortunate reality of the moment. They would greatly improve their public image if they decided to join in the fight against our crippling deficit. They might suggest to other public sector workers on the federal, provincial and municipal levels that they follow the teachers’ lead and accept wage freezes and other concessions for the greater public good. All sectors of the economy are part of the cause of this recession and all sectors should be part of the solution.

Michael Hardner · November 10, 2012

That sounds fair. Let's see what happens though.

It's hard to go from McGuinty's hard line to concessions though.

MiddleClassCentrist · November 10, 2012

Over 10 years ago I retired from a 35 year career in public secondary school education. Since there are active teachers in my family, I have been closely watching recent developments in contract negotiations. I see that Ontario teachers, through their unions, are protesting at Queen’s Park and are now beginning “job actions” and threatening a full work-to-rule campaign. Yes, there are questions as to the legality of by-passing negotiations, tearing up contracts and/or imposing work and wage conditions. These questions will be resolved by the courts. The general perception by the public is that this is a disagreement about money.

Teacher union recent anti-government actions and statements are not endearing the public to their cause. In fact there is a danger that the general public will begin to view the teachers as an out-of-touch, spoiled group not prepared to accept part of the responsibility for our $28 billion deficit.

The last few teacher contract settlements have not been in proportion to the realities of the economy. While teachers were getting 3% annual wage increases, those in the private sector were taking salary decreases or losing jobs. In view of these previous settlements, I believe that the vast majority of the public does not consider a two year wage freeze and other concessions as an outrageous request. It seems more of a pay-back concession in an attempt to reflect the reality of this current recession.

To maintain public trust, public sympathy and successful long term bargaining, the teachers must carefully choose which battles to concede, which battles to fight and which battles to join. I believe that this battle is already lost. It is time to abandon it and save the energies for the next one.

I suggest that the teachers accept the pay freeze and other concessions as the unfortunate reality of the moment. They would greatly improve their public image if they decided to join in the fight against our crippling deficit. They might suggest to other public sector workers on the federal, provincial and municipal levels that they follow the teachers’ lead and accept wage freezes and other concessions for the greater public good. All sectors of the economy are part of the cause of this recession and all sectors should be part of the solution.

Teachers already offered/accepted 0% increase. Government didn't want the teachers to accept, the government wanted to pass this legislation. They can't abandon a battle that targets their right to bargain. If they abandon this battle, all future battles are lost.

jacee · November 10, 2012

Umm Micheal. I started this thread...I dont need any "backing up".... Sorry you feel "attacked" for your position

And..... If a teacher gets "graded", and shows poor performance, he/she could face action such as "summer school"... maybe a pay-cut? Ultimatly, maybe get fired..... It seems 75 percent of Canadians arent really enjoying the hostage taking tactics of the Unions... Its umm..... "In the Poll"...

Yes, Michael... I am angry!

Enjoy the poll and article...

Again, I think the opinions of people, esp parents, who are involved in education are the most significant.

For example, your 'poll' misleads people into believing that teachers' performance is not evaluated ... that's BS.

Apparently you are under that mistaken impression too ... and you're wrong.

So you spout misinformed ignorance.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:eoxVGWGadk8J:www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/teacher/pdfs/TPA_Manual_English_september2010l.pdf+new+teacher+evaluation+ontario&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiaiKgWFpxO-SYFwgR7NfAk3Tu00Pn5leNbPoYYJJLHNSdTktRJXYYp2YmfzT2Aa9EcXseIn7t9_XlfixzrYMt5SB68mHrsXVlU6f1XTmjp0xTKPAxje5DO6kbMvaE7Nb-DN5lJ&sig=AHIEtbRtJ-v_pqIlmIuPaXtqPJhPwl2UBg

jacee · November 10, 2012

Those of us on here who support the teachers - what bone could we throw to the emotional anti-union people on this thread ?

I do think that they should do more to assess teachers on a frequent basis - they're not doing that right now. I think it's at best an annual assessment. They can also ask for the union to work with them to reduce costs.

How many employees get assessed more than annually?

Teachers are 'evaluated' all the time by direct parent feedback, and complaints to the Ontario College of Teachers can and do result in teachers being dismissed.

http://www.oct.ca/#nav

The College sets ethical standards of practice, issues teaching certificates and may suspend or revoke them, accredits teacher education programs and courses, and investigates and hears complaints about members.

I think those like Fletch complaining about teacher evaluation

- Should inform themselves of existing processes, and

- Should take their complaints to the proper authorities.

I also think our governments should stop spending billions of our dollars on corporate welfare payoffs, and then demanding that public sector employees pay the shortfall.

Edited November 10, 2012 by jacee

PIK · November 10, 2012

I think that many teachers themselves do a good job teaching our young children but of course some out there take advantage of the union. Sometimes it seems to me like the unions are too powerful. Every few years they seem to want to strike. Maybe it's time for the government to make some rules regarding Unions and what they can and cannot do. Maybe some forced, binding arbitration before the contract expires would help.

Like have the unions open up thier books. The left is always screaming for transparency, well lets see some.

Big Guy · November 10, 2012

Teachers already offered/accepted 0% increase. Government didn't want the teachers to accept, the government wanted to pass this legislation. They can't abandon a battle that targets their right to bargain. If they abandon this battle, all future battles are lost.

But the "battle" is already in the courts. The lawfulness of the governments actions will be decided by the courts – where I believe that decision should take place. Does the union feel that job actions will influence the decision of the courts? I hope not.

MiddleClassCentrist · November 11, 2012

Leaving it to the courts will take 7 years or more...

Job action puts pressure on the government to avoid making more draconian laws and maybe smarten up by perhaps negotiating a contract, instead of having bankruptcy lawyers form a set of forced parameters.

MiddleClassCentrist · November 11, 2012

Like have the unions open up thier books. The left is always screaming for transparency, well lets see some.

Why should a private organization be required to do so to the public?

cybercoma · November 11, 2012

Why should a private organization be required to do so to the public?

Because you know transparency for the government means unions should be transparent because they're kind of like the government.

Edited November 11, 2012 by cybercoma

Big Guy · November 13, 2012

How many employees get assessed more than annually?

Teachers are 'evaluated' all the time by direct parent feedback, and complaints to the Ontario College of Teachers can and do result in teachers being dismissed.

http://www.oct.ca/#nav

The College sets ethical standards of practice, issues teaching certificates and may suspend or revoke them, accredits teacher education programs and courses, and investigates and hears complaints about members.

I think those like Fletch complaining about teacher evaluation

- Should inform themselves of existing processes, and

- Should take their complaints to the proper authorities.

I also think our governments should stop spending billions of our dollars on corporate welfare payoffs, and then demanding that public sector employees pay the shortfall.

I have never heard of a teacher losing his/her job because of incompetence - Criminal behaviour or sexual abuse yes but never incompetence. I do receive a copy of the "blue pages" of the periodic College report.

Fletch 27 · November 14, 2012

Jacee is very satisfied with the poor performance of our teachers.. She will never agree to a performance based evaluation. She must never have seen "forest gump". To relate our students to our teachers..... "stupid is as stupid does". Ontario has far too many poor performing teachers... Time to change that and this recent teacher union is THAT time to change that..

cybercoma · November 14, 2012

Fletch,

We have one of the best educated countries in the world. The failure of our education system only exists in your mind.

Fletch 27 · November 14, 2012

Ahhhhhhhhh yes, well minus Europe and half of the USA... Yes, I want my child to be "one of".. And I don't mind "intermittent wipers" on my car.... I DO mind my child's intermittent education! Enough with these idiots holding our children behind. Sooooo, your ok with number 17? Have at it.... I'm not fine with a union keeping a child down...

Edited November 14, 2012 by Fletch 27

Fletch 27 · November 14, 2012

We pay the MOST for education...... Why are we not number one?

MiddleClassCentrist · November 14, 2012

Ahhhhhhhhh yes, well minus Europe and half of the USA... Yes, I want my child to be "one of".. And I don't mind "intermittent wipers" on my car.... I DO mind my child's intermittent education! Enough with these idiots holding our children behind. Sooooo, your ok with number 17? Have at it.... I'm not fine with a union keeping a child down...

Source?

MiddleClassCentrist · November 14, 2012

We pay the MOST for education...... Why are we not number one?

Source?

cybercoma · November 14, 2012

Ahhhhhhhhh yes, well minus Europe and half of the USA... Yes, I want my child to be "one of".. And I don't mind "intermittent wipers" on my car.... I DO mind my child's intermittent education! Enough with these idiots holding our children behind. Sooooo, your ok with number 17? Have at it.... I'm not fine with a union keeping a child down...

17th according to what survey?

Here's the OECD's 2012 Report.

http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/education/education-at-a-glance-2012/canada_eag-2012-43-en

Fletch 27 · November 14, 2012

mmm , please.... Gravity citing college and university... We are talking public education here.... Please do stop trying to hide or smother facts.. We are talking PUBLIC school here!!!!!!!!!!

We have all day day care... We hired thousands of teachers who will strike over an extra day in teaching simply for all day day care and a liberal voter base... Education usurped health care in all costs and we have a shifty record and performance on education per capita per dollar around the world.... (public btw...)....

Compare apples to apples.... Ontario teachers shit the bed and are insisting parents and pupils change the sheets.... Time to change the sheets and chuck the shiters out with the sheets....

Edited November 14, 2012 by Fletch 27