Why can't Canada be more nationalist?

[Je suis Omar]

That's where the extremism comes in.

Which you have stated you fully support. What is more extremist than the illegal invasion of two sovereign nations in a mindless, planned retaliation?

What is more extremist than two centuries of USA terrorism, the raping and plundering of numerous countries, countless vicious war crimes, ... ?

[Michael Hardner]

That's like saying "marriage or connection to family are forms of mental retardation that prevent people from seeing the world around them through an objective lens." Nothing wrong with connection to something you care about, a place you and your family have been a part of for decades or centuries.

At a certain point, though there is something wrong with it. I would save my wife's life over a stranger. I would prevent my wife from injury even if it meant serious injury to a stranger. I would save my wife from a deep wound even if it meant...

I'm not a fan of geometric arguments, but for sure there's a point where patriotism passes a point of personal connection and balance.

But you knew that...

So you don't believe in being proud of your country? You prefer to have no sense of connection to your country, it's just a random place to live in, like many other countries? You would prefer that we not celebrate Canada Day every July 1st because eww nationalism and patriotism? Let's replace the national anthem with a Beyonce song! And replace our flag with a barcode!

Maybe I can relate it to you this way: feelings, and matters of the heart are personal, emotional and natural. Maps and nationalities are geometrical, legalistic and cold. They aren't necessarily incompatible but they're not compatible all of the time either.

I have a real connection to my city, the parts of the country I know and people who are familiar to me, as well as the way of life, and our national philosophies as much of a tapestry as they are.

Am I obliged to feel a connection to people I have never met, policies I don't agree with, places I have never gone ?

[eyeball]

No, being ignorant and unempathetic "prevents people from seeing the world around them through an objective lens." That's like saying "marriage or connection to family are forms of mental retardation that prevent people from seeing the world around them through an objective lens." Nothing wrong with connection to something you care about, a place you and your family have been a part of for decades or centuries.

So you don't believe in being proud of your country? You prefer to have no sense of connection to your country, it's just a random place to live in, like many other countries? You would prefer that we not celebrate Canada Day every July 1st because eww nationalism and patriotism? Let's replace the national anthem with a Beyonce song! And replace our flag with a barcode!

I understand the connection you speak of except I feel it more acutely in my relationship to the region I live in. What nationalism fails to recognize is how globalism is constantly eroding that connection. Ironically it was our nation that aggressively pursued and dragged us all towards globalism. Globalism demands that the natural resources of my region be privatized so they can be harvested and shipped out at the fastest and cheapest rate possible. Nationalism displaces and replace any local voice that might speak to the regional needs and concerns of people with its own which in our case is also a globalist voice.

This is happening all over the planet and the push back is regionalism and even tribalism. Nationalism is positioned in the place it's most likely to be squeezed out or torn apart - between the forces of globalism and regionalism.

[dre]

So you don't believe in being proud of your country?

When its earned and warranted sure, but not just for existing as a nation. Im ambivalent if anything... proud of some stuff, not proud of other stuff.

it's just a random place to live in, like many other countries?

I wouldnt say Im completely without a sense of connection. I like the climate and scenery where I live... its nicer than a lot of other places. I like the people where I live too, but Iv been to other western countries, and I like the people there just as much.

a place you and your family have been a part of for decades or centuries.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I regard Canada as a "place", and quite a nice one. As nice as some other places, nicer than many places, and probably not a nice as some others (I havent seen the whole world).

Nothing wrong with connection to something

Well I already stated what can be wrong with it... it fosters a lack of objectivity, and a sort of hive/sportsfan mentality.

But that doesn't mean I have a sinister dislike of Nigerians or will treat them unkind or that I am not a humanist at the same time.

No, but a very nationalistic and patriotic population could easily be lead to treat people in another country unkindly. History is littered with examples of this, not to mention 10's of millions of corpses.

[Hal 9000]

Yes they are. It means I like and have more of a connection to Canada than, say, Nigeria. But that doesn't mean I have a sinister dislike of Nigerians or will treat them unkind or that I am not a humanist at the same time. Humanism and nationalism are not mutually exclusive,

I agree, but the lefties seem to have the philosophy that choosing or preferring one thing over another is in all cases "discriminatory". To be patriotic, is equal to discriminating against every other country. Any preference to one thing is equal to discriminating against the opposite and that's exactly what the left fights so hard against doing.

[eyeball]

So ideology and patriotic nationalism are all mutually inclusive? I have my doubts.

[Michael Hardner]

I understand the connection you speak of except I feel it more acutely in my relationship to the region I live in. What nationalism fails to recognize is how globalism is constantly eroding that connection. Ironically it was our nation that aggressively pursued and dragged us all towards globalism. Globalism demands that the natural resources of my region be privatized so they can be harvested and shipped out at the fastest and cheapest rate possible. Nationalism displaces and replace any local voice that might speak to the regional needs and concerns of people with its own which in our case is also a globalist voice.

This is happening all over the planet and the push back is regionalism and even tribalism. Nationalism is positioned in the place it's most likely to be squeezed out or torn apart - between the forces of globalism and regionalism.

These senses of connection to people and place are basically defined by our collective communication modes. People think of "nations" as such natural divisions, but it wasn't until language and map printing became specific and widespread until those things emerged as they are today.

Now we have electric money that shoots all over the world, really defining what livelihood, people and country are.

I have been to your BC islands, and as breathtaking and mind boggling as I found them I didn't feel as connected to the place and people as I do to Buffalo New York. I'm connected to both places, as I am to Vietnam as well - and I should have a say if somebody there decides to dump plutonium into the ocean.

The beautiful thing is that electronic media are probably better at defining our connections in this way, and I really feel that the new definitions that will emerge (decades or centuries) will codify my associations, whether they be to Buffalo, BC, or Vietnam.

[dre]

I agree, but the lefties seem to have the philosophy that choosing or preferring one thing over another is in all cases "discriminatory".

<facepalm/>

[Hal 9000]

When its earned and warranted sure, but not just for existing as a nation. Im ambivalent if anything... proud of some stuff, not proud of other stuff.

I wouldnt say Im completely without a sense of connection. I like the climate and scenery where I live... its nicer than a lot of other places. I like the people where I live too, but Iv been to other western countries, and I like the people there just as much.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I regard Canada as a "place", and quite a nice one. As nice as some other places, nicer than many places, and probably not a nice as some others (I havent seen the whole world).

Well I already stated what can be wrong with it... it fosters a lack of objectivity, and a sort of hive/sportsfan mentality.

No, but a very nationalistic and patriotic population could easily be lead to treat people in another country unkindly. History is littered with examples of this, not to mention 10's of millions of corpses.

Really!

[Michael Hardner]

<facepalm/>

That comment covers, in a nutshell, why a nation with rampant obesity has citizens who complain about donating rice to the starving.

[Hal 9000]

That comment covers, in a nutshell, why a nation with rampant obesity has citizens who complain about donating rice to the starving.

Canada is always donating money, food, rescue workers, doctors...whatever, every time there is a problem or disaster in the world. Why? Because we are a great country. What is your point?

Edited May 23, 2015 by Hal 9000

[eyeball]

These senses of connection to people and place are basically defined by our collective communication modes. People think of "nations" as such natural divisions, but it wasn't until language and map printing became specific and widespread until those things emerged as they are today.

The sense of connection is better defined by quality of life values that people identify including livelihoods, environment, recreation etc. This can be achieved by creating detailed maps that capture and display and overlay these values on the bio-geophysical features and information the map contains. Have you ever participated in a community mapping project in your region that invites people to actually do this? It's an eye opening experience. This provides the bigger picture that managers need to make decisions that affect those values. With technology now we can just keep zooming in and get better resolution both in terms of the physical, cultural and economic.

Now we have electric money that shoots all over the world, really defining what livelihood, people and country are.

Mostly it subsumes all values into it's own paradigm while ultimately blowing everything else's away.

I have been to your BC islands, and as breathtaking and mind boggling as I found them I didn't feel as connected to the place and people as I do to Buffalo New York. I'm connected to both places, as I am to Vietnam as well - and I should have a say if somebody there decides to dump plutonium into the ocean.

If the people in your region actually had the autonomy to allow this to happen do you honestly think they would? Why would you imagine the people of Vietnam or BC would put up with polluting the regions they live in if they had the power to decide to? The only way to go around local wishes is to centralize authority for the region hundreds or thousands of km's away and allow a small number of lobbyists more access to that authority than the region the authority is wielded. It's no wonder big central governments are such big boosters of nationalism.

The beautiful thing is that electronic media are probably better at defining our connections in this way, and I really feel that the new definitions that will emerge (decades or centuries) will codify my associations, whether they be to Buffalo, BC, or Vietnam.

I think media helps people better communicate the connections they have defined but how does it follow that the media is the connection?

[Guest]

That comment covers, in a nutshell, why a nation with rampant obesity has citizens who complain about donating rice to the starving.

You mean Golden Rice, or just any rice?

[Michael Hardner]

Canada is always donating money, food, rescue workers, doctors...whatever, every time there is a problem or disaster in the world. Why? Because we are a great country. What is your point?

I think I made my point. Are you complaining here ? If so, then .

[Michael Hardner]

You mean Golden Rice, or just any rice?

Is one brand of rice less expensive ?

[Guest]

I don't know about the cost, I was just wondering if the complaints were made with regard to their GMO content.

[Hal 9000]

I think I made my point. Are you complaining here ? If so, then .

WTF! You've made no point, and you obviously can't read.

[Michael Hardner]

The sense of connection is better defined by quality of life values that people identify including livelihoods, environment, recreation etc. This can be achieved by creating detailed maps that capture and display and overlay these values on the bio-geophysical features and information the map contains. Have you ever participated in a community mapping project in your region that invites people to actually do this? It's an eye opening experience. This provides the bigger picture that managers need to make decisions that affect those values. With technology now we can just keep zooming in and get better resolution both in terms of the physical, cultural and economic.

Mapping values ? That sounds interesting but there are such a thing as universal values which would probably include caring about our planet. I believe one of the reasons Communism resounded internationally is this perspective.

Mostly it subsumes all values into it's own paradigm while ultimately blowing everything else's away.

Yes, and the human being has to adjust to the new communication ratio.

If the people in your region actually had the autonomy to allow this to happen do you honestly think they would? Why would you imagine the people of Vietnam or BC would put up with polluting the regions they live in if they had the power to decide to?

Maybe as much pollution as humans provide just by being on the planet ?

I think media helps people better communicate the connections they have defined but how does it follow that the media is the connection?

Media is a connection... don't understand your question.

[Michael Hardner]

WTF! You've made no point, and you obviously can't read.

The point I made is that fat people complain about donating 10 cents to help the starving. Do you have a problem with that ? If so, how much do you weigh ?

[Hal 9000]

The point I made is that fat people complain about donating 10 cents to help the starving. Do you have a problem with that ? If so, how much do you weigh ?

Did i miss a post where someone (obviously fat) complained about donating...well anything?

[Michael Hardner]

Did i miss a post where someone (obviously fat) complained about donating...well anything?

Probably. This could be one: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/22593-canadian-military-or-foreign-aid/#entry896040

[Hal 9000]

Probably. This could be one: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/22593-canadian-military-or-foreign-aid/#entry896040

Whew! good thing you found something somewhere from someone else to back-up a ridiculous statement. I was beginning to think you were just trolling.

[Je suis Omar]

Canada is always donating money, food, rescue workers, doctors...whatever, every time there is a problem or disaster in the world. Why? Because we are a great country. What is your point?

A good point would be that we ought not to rely on fictions, old grandpa/grandma tales, ..., when we make such grandiose statements.

The Organization of Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) calculates the foreign aid spending by 29 wealthy nations and reported earlier this year that Canadas aid budget as a proportion of its Gross National Income has dropped to 0.24 per cent. Only three years ago, it was 0.34 per cent of GNI a drop of almost a third.

A goal of 0.7 per cent was set by the United Nations in 1970 and only five countries have attained this target. The U.K. joined the club this year after enshrining the spending in law.

Countries that have been suffering a lot more from the financial crisis, like the U.K., theyve hit the 0.7 target, said Reilly-King. We talk about how weve managed our economy well, and yet we see our support for aid declining.

http://m.ourwindsor.ca/news-story/5572283-canada-keeps-foreign-aid-budget-secret-as-spending-drops-to-levels-not-seen-since-2003

It appears that Canada is moving towards that illustrious position that has heretofore been the province of the USA - the stingiest nation on the planet.

[eyeball]

Mapping values ? That sounds interesting but there are such a thing as universal values which would probably include caring about our planet.

Yes well, when you compare the maps that people in different regions produce independently from one another the overarching thing that stands out is exactly that, a universal value curiously skewed towards people caring for their own regions. It turns an old worn out phrase on it's head whereby acting locally the global situation effectively takes care of itself.

I believe one of the reasons Communism resounded internationally is this perspective.

I believe communism failed for the same reason capitalism is failing - over-centralized authority with their own peculiar set of values usually with a premium on power.

Yes, and the human being has to adjust to the new communication ratio.

Sez who?

Maybe as much pollution as humans provide just by being on the planet ?

Sez what?

Media is a connection... don't understand your question.

Media simply connects us but it's not in and of itself the biggest thing connecting us to our places or our world. It's not even close to the far more fundamental universal values that people can naturally locate and clearly indicate for themselves with something as simple as a coloured pencil on a map.

[Moonlight Graham]

Perhaps you can explain the fevered pitch that overtook the USA and then Canada that causes so many people to deny reality. That caused both of the aforementioned countries to illegally invade a sovereign nation.

That causes everyone to unthinkingly accept ludicrous notions like, "they hate our freedoms". That causes vast swaths of Americans and Canadians to be so ignorant and unempathetic that they absolutely refuse to entertain the completely logical idea (supported by CIA/pentagon officials) that there are people who have finally decided to retaliate against the USA for their century plus of murder and mayhem. These USA agencies were saying that it was something that should have been expected.

All pushed under the carpet, mindless patriotism has ruled the dayS.

All of that occurred because those particular people are frankly stupid, uninformed, lack critical analysis skills, and blindly accept the propaganda fed to them by government and their media apologists. Being a patriot doesn't mean you have to accept everything your government says or does, in fact it's quite the opposite.

You, yourself, have attempted to explain away genocide, war crimes and terrorism with the "well others have done it too/others would have done it if we hadn't beat them to the punch".

Is this the ignorance and lack of empathy you spoke of?

I never said nor do I believe that certain uncivilized behaviours of the West past and present were morally just, ie: treatment of natives, and exploiting those in weaker countries for our own wealth.

What I did say was that the West is still among the most civilized societies to ever exist in human history. I never said the West was perfectly civilized. The fact that the West has done horrible things doesn't disqualify them from being the most civilized civilization ever (along with a few other Eastern cultures ie: Japan) because, as I said, every single other major non-Western society in the world would have done similar or worse in our position of power.