Afghan-Cdn mother attempted honor killing of daughter

[Mr.Canada]

PeterF, Do you believe that any violence against women is honour motivated?

Do you believe that any violence against women can be due to Muslims misinterpreting the Koran?

Clear yes or no answers will be fine.

[Bonam]

Do you not understand what "premeditated" vs. "the heat of the moment" means? It's doesn't literally mean "a minute," if that's your belief. When one loses control to that extent, and acts on their anger, their loss of control, it generally lasts more than a minute - but is referred to as "the heat of the moment."

I think that the time it takes to decide to go get a weapon, hide the weapon under your clothes, come up with a lie and speak to your husband about the situation, and then walk back downstairs, is decidedly a lot more than one moment.

Just what is the limit here? If instead of going upstairs for the knife she'd driven over to a store, bought a weapon, and then come back, would that still be heat of the moment? If instead of talking to her husband she'd waited until he left the next day for work or something, would that be heat of the moment?

No, heat of the moment is when you find yourself in a situation, and do something immediately in response. If you have time to devise, plan, and carry out a multi-step course of action, as this woman did, it is not heat of the moment.

That would be my interpretation.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Bonam

[Guest]

I think honour killing is a cultural phenomenon, and it just happens to be more prevalent in cultures where Islam is the dominant religion. It is certainly not limited to that religion though.

It does seem limited to that general geographical area, and the diaspora that spread from it.

I don't think it's helpful to pretend it doesn't happen.

The only words I've read on this case are in this thread and I don't think it's wrong to describe it as an attempted honour killing.

I hope the mother goes away for a very long time.

[Peter F]

I think honour killing is a cultural phenomenon, and it just happens to be more prevalent in cultures where Islam is the dominant religion. It is certainly not limited to that religion though.

It does seem limited to that general geographical area, and the diaspora that spread from it.

I don't think it's helpful to pretend it doesn't happen.

The only words I've read on this case are in this thread and I don't think it's wrong to describe it as an attempted honour killing.

I hope the mother goes away for a very long time.

Almost all killings can be described as honour killings.

[Peter F]

PeterF, Do you believe that any violence against women is honour motivated?

Almost always.

Do you believe that any violence against women can be due to Muslims misinterpreting the Koran?

Clear yes or no answers will be fine.

nope

[Bonam]

PeterF, Do you believe that any violence against women is honour motivated?

Almost always.

Really now? Almost all violence against women is honor motivated? I suppose rapists are doing it out of their sense of honor, then? You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Guest]

Almost all killings can be described as honour killings.

I don't see how it's a matter of honour if someone wants your wallet. Or your spouse. Or you, for that matter, and they don't want anyone else to know about it.

[Guest American Woman]

I think that the time it takes to decide to go get a weapon, hide the weapon under your clothes, come up with a lie and speak to your husband about the situation, and then walk back downstairs, is decidedly a lot more than one moment.

I doubt it takes all that long to grab a knife in anger, shove it under your shirt, hurry downstairs, and tell the other person "I'll handle it." Are you saying that she planned all of that the day before? Hours before? Before she got so angry? Are you saying there was somewhere within that time frame that it would have been expected that she would have cooled off? That people who are that upset generally do cool off within such a time frame?

Just what is the limit here? If instead of going upstairs for the knife she'd driven over to a store, bought a weapon, and then come back, would that still be heat of the moment?

Since that didn't happen, what relevance does it have? But quite frankly, if she had done all of that, I think she may have cooled off, or at least there would be a reasonalbe expectation for her to have cooled off. There's quite a difference between grabbing what one has on hand, easily within reach, and going out to buy it.

If instead of talking to her husband she'd waited until he left the next day for work or something, would that be heat of the moment?

Of course not. That would be premeditated.

No, heat of the moment is when you find yourself in a situation, and do something immediately in response.

She did do something immediately in response. She didn't drive to the store to buy a weapon and she didn't wait until her husband left for work the next day. She acted at that moment in time.

If you have time to devise, plan, and carry out a multi-step course of action, as this woman did, it is not heat of the moment.

From what we know, she didn't "plan" when she was lucid, ahead of time, before she was angry; she acted during the moment of time in which she was angry, upset. According to what we know, time hadn't passed between her getting upset and her acting on it.

That would be my interpretation.

I think that would make just about every murder/attempted murder "premeditated."

Edited September 29, 2012 by American Woman

[Peter F]

Really now? Almost all violence against women is honor motivated? I suppose rapists are doing it out of their sense of honor, then? You have no idea what you're talking about.

you certainly don't

[Peter F]

I don't see how it's a matter of honour if someone wants your wallet. Or your spouse. Or you, for that matter, and they don't want anyone else to know about it.

as I said: Almost always.

[Guest American Woman]

Almost all killings can be described as honour killings.

How so? It appears as if you don't understand what an "honor killing" is.

Edited September 29, 2012 by American Woman

[Deuce]

The accusation of 'making excuses' is just another way of saying "shut up and let us post as many of these anti-Muslim stories as we want to".

Why are you trying to control the threads being posted on the fourm? I'm assuming being a "forum facilitator" gives you some sort of power over us "normal" posters but to complain at activity on the forum that 85% of the posters think is fair discussion is tiresome. Don't like the content, dont click open.

You have the right to talk about problems, but I personally am getting sick of this topic - some courses of action were suggested, there's not much else to discuss is there ?

Again, if you personally are getting sick of this topic steer clear of it, there are what 15 sub-sections to this board yet you seem to stumble onto the "anti-muslim" threads you claim to dislike so much.

As I have pointed out in the past, it's not a condemnation forum or an outrage forum. We had a perfectly interesting thread started today about current perceptions of sexual harassment in the workplace. That was interesting and provided a good amount of back-and-forth.

Muslim crimes... really... done to death on here IMO.

Complaining about muslim crime threads... really... done to death (by you) on here.

Cheers, Deuce.

[Michael Hardner]

Why are you trying to control the threads being posted on the fourm? I'm assuming being a "forum facilitator" gives you some sort of power over us "normal" posters but to complain at activity on the forum that 85% of the posters think is fair discussion is tiresome. Don't like the content, dont click open.

Hi Deucr, no I don't have extra power and part of my role is to facilitate good discussion. I already addressed that - see my other post.

I am just asking questions here - thus is indeed a new cause for me so you probably haven't seen a lot on this before yesterday.

[jacee]

rious knife wounds to her head and shoulder. Ms. Kaleki,40,is charged with attempted murder, aggravated assault and illegal use of a weapon.

Do the crime, do the time.

Nothing to see here ...

[kimmy]

Debating whether this is an "honor killing" seems pretty pointless. It is obvious that religion and culture are an undeniable factor in this attack, whether or not the term "honor killing" fits.

I think that the use of terms like "heat of the moment" and "crime of passion" in this case is also inaccurate. I think that in the context of the law, those terms have a connotation of immediacy that doesn't really fit the sequence of events described here.

If she'd grabbed the knife off the table and swung before she had a chance to think about what she was doing, that's one thing. But she left the room to get the knife, concealed it, asked her husband to leave, asked her daughter to lie down... she had plenty of time to reconsider what she was doing.

From reading her statements, it seems that her only regret is that she didn't use a sharper knife. She seems convinced she was doing the right thing. She wanted to "give her the peace she needed." She's clearly got beliefs that just aren't compatible with Canadian values and laws. Whether that's a "culture" thing or a "religion" thing is a tough question because the two are closely linked for a lot of people from the ultra-conservative parts of the Muslim world.

The Old Testament says to execute disobedient children too, but Christians and Jews have evolved to a point where they know that's a stupid idea. Sadly, in some parts of the Muslim world, they haven't evolved much.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

If she'd grabbed the knife off the table and swung before she had a chance to think about what she was doing, that's one thing. But she left the room to get the knife, concealed it, asked her husband to leave, asked her daughter to lie down... she had plenty of time to reconsider what she was doing.

That's assuming she was in the state of mind to reconsider what she was doing. As I said, "the heat of the moment" doesn't literally involve one moment.

She's clearly got beliefs that just aren't compatible with Canadian values and laws. Whether that's a "culture" thing or a "religion" thing is a tough question because the two are closely linked for a lot of people from the ultra-conservative parts of the Muslim world.

The Old Testament says to execute disobedient children too, but Christians and Jews have evolved to a point where they know that's a stupid idea. Sadly, in some parts of the Muslim world, they haven't evolved much.

You don't think Christians or Jews have ever killed their children? You don't think "God has ever told" Christian mothers to kill their children?

As to whether or not she believes she had the right to kill her daughter because of her religious beliefs, she doesn't:

At one point, Bertrand asked Kaleki, who is Muslim and originally from Afghanistan, whether she felt that what she did “was necessary.”

“No it was not. It was not,” Kaleki said through tears. “I went against my religion. I went against my God.

“I will be punished in this world and I will be punished on the day of judgment.”

link

She says that she went against her religion. Not every Muslim who kills a child is any different from Christians or Jews or Mormons who kill theirs. In other words, they don't all do it out of "honor" or because they think their religion gives them the right. Clearly, from that statement, she doesn't believe her religion "told her to do it."

Edited September 30, 2012 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

double post

Edited September 30, 2012 by American Woman

[Mr.Canada]

On the other hand, you're taking her statements at face value. It's certainly possible that she understands the negative press Muslims get sometimes and simply lied. I think it's only prudent to consider that possibility as well. I find it better to keep al options open instead of just jumping to a conclusion.

[kimmy]

You don't think Christians or Jews have ever killed their children? You don't think "God has ever told" Christian mothers to kill their children?

Yeah, mentally ill ones...

In this century I don't know of a place on earth where there are Christians or Jews who still perceive a duty to kill rebellious children; the same can't be said of Muslims.

As to whether or not she believes she had the right to kill her daughter because of her religious beliefs, she doesn't:

At one point, Bertrand asked Kaleki, who is Muslim and originally from Afghanistan, whether she felt that what she did “was necessary.”

“No it was not. It was not,” Kaleki said through tears. “I went against my religion. I went against my God.

“I will be punished in this world and I will be punished on the day of judgment.”

link

She says that she went against her religion. Not every Muslim who kills a child is any different from Christians or Jews or Mormons who kill theirs. In other words, they don't all do it out of "honor" or because they think their religion gives them the right. Clearly, from that statement, she doesn't believe her religion "told her to do it."

Well, that certainly has a different sound to it than the statements reported by the National Post. I wonder if it's because selective quoting by the Post, or because she got some advice from a lawyer?

-k

[Guest American Woman]

Yeah, mentally ill ones...

In this century I don't know of a place on earth where there are Christians or Jews who still perceive a duty to kill rebellious children; the same can't be said of Muslims.

That doesn't mean every Muslim who kills her(his) child(ren) feels that way; I would imagine the occasional Muslim is mentally ill, too.

Well, that certainly has a different sound to it than the statements reported by the National Post. I wonder if it's because selective quoting by the Post, or because she got some advice from a lawyer?

The article says that she "quickly went from defiant to repentant in the hours after her arrest," and it sounds as if it all happened prior to her having legal counsel .... "Her right to a lawyer was temporarily suspended because the blood-stained clothing she was wearing was considered as evidence."

Edited September 30, 2012 by American Woman

[Guest Peeves]

The accusation of 'making excuses' is just another way of saying "shut up and let us post as many of these anti-Muslim stories as we want to".

You have the right to talk about problems, but I personally am getting sick of this topic - some courses of action were suggested, there's not much else to discuss is there ?

As I have pointed out in the past, it's not a condemnation forum or an outrage forum. We had a perfectly interesting thread started today about current perceptions of sexual harassment in the workplace. That was interesting and provided a good amount of back-and-forth.

Muslim crimes... really... done to death on here IMO.

"Done to death" Nicely punned.

But really.

They're sacrosanct ? or they are going to stop? Or they aren't news anymore given the frequency ?, (as in man bites dog argument?) If they make headlines or hit the radio talk shows or/and are subject to gory details,drawn out court cases,death sentence rehash,if the story is highly newsworthy we should simply ignore it because.? because why was that again? Oh it's domestic violence and happens in uh..... uh........'course it does. Personally, I find your dismissal rather cavalier while I treat any such violent crime as punctiliously.

I guess I live vicariously on the manner in which our courts view violence carried here fom other climes. But then, I also read three books on Karla and Paul Bernardo.

I still think capital crimes deserve capital punishment. You on the other hand seem to want violence in one culture to be limited in discussion ? Ignored as too commonplace??

Edited October 2, 2012 by Peeves

[g_bambino]

So again another person from Islam performs an honor killing on their teenage daughter... We have to remember that this is normal behavior in this culture.

It's honour. That's the normal practice in our culture.

[ed.: +]

Edited October 2, 2012 by g_bambino

[Mr.Canada]

It's honour. That's the normal practice in our culture.

[ed.: +]

Lol. I know my argument is rock solid when people resort to playing grammar police and ignore the rest of the post. Honour, honor Canadian, American. Same meaning, who cares.

Anyone who thinks that the culture and/or religion had nothing to do with this attempted murder are either incredibly naive or being completely dishonest.

[g_bambino]

I know my argument is rock solid when people resort to playing grammar police and ignore the rest of the post..

Just poking at your hypocricy.

I ignored the rest of the post because it's just more of the same-old: Mulsims bad, keep 'em out, yadda, yadda.

[Guest Peeves]

Lol. I know my argument is rock solid when people resort to playing grammar police and ignore the rest of the post. Honour, honor Canadian, American. Same meaning, who cares.

Anyone who thinks that the culture and/or religion had nothing to do with this attempted murder are either incredibly naive or being completely dishonest.

Neither, rather they ( a few) want the subject to be ignored unless of course it's a wasp or such. Some murder or murder attempts are to be ignored as beyond the pale in this (and other) forums. If it happens and it becomes a subject, it's quite simply to be ignored or you're a bigot, or worse for even touching on such.