Afghan-Cdn mother attempted honor killing of daughter

[Guest American Woman]

I'll go out on a limb and suggest this attempted murder was committed by a mother with cultural beliefs that she thought gave her the right to murder a misbehaving daughter. Sadly, for the daughter good and the family honor.

What are you basing that on? I already posted a quote from her, saying her religion doesn't give her the right to do what she did, and that she in fact went against her religion. Where does she speak of "honor" or her belief that the had the "right to murder a misbehaving daughter?" Again. Her statement suggests just the opposite.

Again. Non-Muslims sometimes kill/attempt to kill their children, too. Do you think, but for the sake of honor, Muslim parents never would?

[Guest Peeves]

What are you basing that on? I already posted a quote from her, saying her religion doesn't give her the right to do what she did, and that she in fact went against her religion. Where does she speak of "honor" or her belief that the had the "right to murder a misbehaving daughter?" Again. Her statement suggests just the opposite.

Again. Non-Muslims sometimes kill/attempt to kill their children, too. Do you think, but for the sake of honor, Muslim parents never would?

I said culture, not religion. However in her first interview her position clearly was that she was saving her (sinning, misbehaving) daughter by killing her. That's the way I read it. That's the way the coverage did.

She said many contrary things once she got a lawyer.

You are equating religion with honor killings and this attempt. Honor killings are not limited to one religion.

http://richarddawkins.net/news_articles/2012/9/30/afghan-canadian-mother-described-allegedly-stabbing-daughter-to-police#.UHTu61ZjfqU

Read the story it's pretty clear she wanted to "fix" a daughter that was only broken in this culture.

[Guest American Woman]

I said culture, not religion. However in her first interview her position clearly was that she was saving her (sinning, misbehaving) daughter by killing her. That's the way I read it. That's the way the coverage did.

She said many contrary things once she got a lawyer.

She said that she didn't have the right to do what she did, so neither her culture nor her religion led her to believe that she had the right to kill her. She said that in her first interview, before she had access to a lawyer.

Read the story it's pretty clear she wanted to "fix" a daughter that was only broken in this culture.

At the time, yes, but she also said she was acting in the heat of the moment; it's not something that she planned.

[Mr.Canada]

She said that she didn't have the right to do what she did, so neither her culture nor her religion led her to believe that she had the right to kill her. She said that in her first interview, before she had access to a lawyer.

At the time, yes, but she also said she was acting in the heat of the moment; it's not something that she planned.

You always believe what people tell you AW? Come on, you're being a little naive here AW. You're smarter than this.

[Guest American Woman]

You always believe what people tell you AW? Come on, you're being a little naive here AW. You're smarter than this.

If she felt that she had the right to kill her daughter, she would say that she thought that she had the right. It's how we know that some people's culture/religion gives them the belief that they have the right - because they say they do.

Again. No one has answered the question I raised:

There are parents from every culture, every religion, who have killed/attempted to kill their children. Do you think Muslims and/or cultures that have a belief in honor killings are the only ones who would never kill/attempt to kill their child but for a sense of honor?

[Guest Peeves]

She said that she didn't have the right to do what she did, so neither her culture nor her religion led her to believe that she had the right to kill her. She said that in her first interview, before she had access to a lawyer.

At the time, yes, but she also said she was acting in the heat of the moment; it's not something that she planned.

She said" as quoted in the article..."

He left and she cuddled her first-born and told her to lie on her stomach so she could give her a back massage. “Then I stab her, stab her neck,” she confessed. “She said, ‘No Mom!’ I said, ‘It’s for your good. Let me finish.’ ”

Earlier in the interrogation, Sgt.-Det. Bertrand has asked whether the knife blade was sharp. “No, it wasn’t,” she replied. “I wish it was. I wanted to give her the peace that she needed.”

Bahar survived the attack, suffering serious knife wounds to her head and shoulder. Ms. Kaleki, 40, is charged with attempted murder, aggravated assault and illegal use of a weapon.

Her husband, alerted by Bahar’s screams, rushed downstairs and grabbed the knife from Ms. Kaleki, the court heard. “I said to my husband, let me finish her.’ ” She tried to choke her daughter, she said, and after Bahar escaped, she chased her upstairs and tried to break down the locked door to the bedroom where she was calling 911.

She was arrested, and after being treated in hospital for a knife wound on her own arm, she told her story to Sgt.-Det. Bertrand.

Then I stab her, stab her neck. She said, ‘No Mom!’ I said, It’s for your good. Let me finish

The first night Bahar stayed out late, informing her parents she was downtown enjoying a concert, they went to the local police station to file a report, Ms. Kaleki said. The officer told them there was nothing that could be done. “He said, ‘She’s safe. Don’t worry. She’s a teenager.’ ”

But the idea of a rebellious teenage girl was foreign to her parents. They expected Bahar to be home by 11 p.m. and not to smoke, drink or have boyfriends.

Spin and twist all you wish, but the mother was determined to kill a 19 year old daughter for conflict within her cultural beliefs.

Afghanistan as I understand it has one of the worst records. Immigrants here from Afghanistan bring their cultural baggage unfortunately.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en-US&hl=en&q=Afghanistan+honor+killing

[Black Dog]

Certainly it's domestic violence when these things happen, but over cultural custom and honor.

I might suggest a sickening culture that is anachronistic and draconian in nature and that denigrates women.

It is not about some immigrants religion at all. It's not about Muslims or Islam, it's about the terrible traditions and cultural baggage carried by immigrant families to the West.

So what's your solution?

[Guest Peeves]

If she felt that she had the right to kill her daughter, she would say that she thought that she had the right. It's how we know that some people's culture/religion gives them the belief that they have the right - because they say they do.

Again. No one has answered the question I raised:

There are parents from every culture, every religion, who have killed/attempted to kill their children. Do you think Muslims and/or cultures that have a belief in honor killings are the only ones who would never kill/attempt to kill their child but for a sense of honor?

FILICIDE

: the murder of one's own daughter or son

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Your question is rather simplistic and hardly deserves an answer as posed, however I'm bored presently..(making coffee) so the appropriately simplistic answer is that murders are committed by people for the damnedest reasons, 'honor' not being the least of them in a couple of particular cultures.

So to answer your question;

Do you think Muslims and/or cultures that have a belief in honor killings are the only ones who would never kill/attempt to kill their child but for a sense of honor?

NO!

Recently it was found that 5 newborns had been murdered over several years for fear of losing the father. A woman drove her car with three children into the water or fear of losing her boy friend.Four Canadian immigrants were drowned by a mom, dad, and son for honor.

So certainly children and spouses (usually women) are murdered for abuse, for honor for dowry for madness.

Expanding on my answer. She apparently (from the interview),thought she had a duty, a mission or obligation, perhaps a responsibility to 'fix' her daughter and that 'fix' was her death. She wished, she said, that the knife was sharper. She said she wanted to"finish her'.

I doubt I need explain this to any, but,

In some yet contemporary cultures MORE THAN OTHERS, there is an inherent pride in following traditional culture where;

A) women are inferior to the men,and

Children, particularly female, are but domestic chattel that follow established codes, traditions and their tribal,sectarian culture.

That commonly includes dowry, class, marriage, behavior and honor.

There is no disputing the fact that some immigrants more than others carry that behavior from their historic homeland traditions to Western countries as Canada.

Whether it be FGM, or polygamy or 'honor' killings, it happens.

That a Western parent might commit felicide is not at argument, and is rather a red herring.

That this Afghan mother set out to murder her daughter isn't either, it is obvious to the reader given the interview and charges.

She might be crazy, but what is not at question is her origins and practices as an Afghani . Similarly by a Pakistani,

http://www.meforum.o...-honor-killings

Many women's groups in the Middle East and Southwest Asia suspect that more than 20,000 women are honor killed each year.

http://www.civilserv...g-in-india.html

Honor killing in India

Recently, there has been a spate of honor killings in the country and this has led the government to decide what laws should be put in place to stop this heinous crime. More than 1,000 young people in India have been done to death every year owing to 'Honor Killings' linked to forced marriage.

Now this mother may have stated rightly that her religion did not call for her to murder her grown daughter, but certainly the reasons she cited related to what was expected in the social behavior of her grown daughter and that how she was behaving was unacceptable , needed fixing, and that death...murder was the way to fix her.

Sad, but that's how some cultures are in reality.

You may claim that other parents kill their children in every culture, BUT dearie, until the more recent years I had heard naught of 'honor' killings per se.

That they happened is quite likely, but now..........well, you know well about ...now don't you ..all.

[Guest Peeves]

So what's your solution?

A) Making it clear that such is not tolerated in Canada (the West)

b---) See (A.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Peeves

[Black Dog]

A) Making it clear that such is not tolerated in Canada (the West)

b---) See (A.

And how do you propose to do that, exactly?

[Guest American Woman]

She said" as quoted in the article..."[...]

Spin and twist all you wish, but the mother was determined to kill a 19 year old daughter for conflict within her cultural beliefs.

I read all that she said and acknowledged it. I'm twisting nothing. As I already posted:

She "quickly went from defiant to repentant in the hours after her arrest," and it sounds as if it all happened prior to her having legal counsel .... "Her right to a lawyer was temporarily suspended because the blood-stained clothing she was wearing was considered as evidence."

At one point, Bertrand asked Kaleki, who is Muslim and originally from Afghanistan, whether she felt that what she did “was necessary.”

“No it was not. It was not,” Kaleki said through tears. “I went against my religion. I went against my God.

“I will be punished in this world and I will be punished on the day of judgment.”

Afghanistan as I understand it has one of the worst records. Immigrants here from Afghanistan bring their cultural baggage unfortunately.

https://www.google.c...n honor killing

That very well may be. That doesn't mean that every Muslim/Afghan et al parent who kills/tries to kill their child is doing it out of a sense of honor; because they believe they have the right. I would wager that Muslim/Afghan et al parents are no different from the rest of the world, and sometimes they kill/try to kill their children for reasons other than honor/a belief that they have the right. Just because some believe that and act on it doesn't mean that all do.

What she did was wrong, and apparently she knows that it was.

Edited October 10, 2012 by American Woman

[Guest Peeves]

"That very well may be. That doesn't mean that every Muslim/Afghan et al parent who kills/tries to kill their child is doing it out of a sense of honor; because they believe they have the right.

I would wager that Muslim/Afghan et al parents are no different from the rest of the world, and sometimes they kill/try to kill their children for reasons other than honor/a belief that they have the right. Just because some believe that and act on it doesn't mean that all do."

You would lose. There is no comparisons of the numbers in some tribal countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. in what are deemed honor killings. It's foolish to maintain such when it's well documented. And it's not a religious issue, so drop the Islam, Muslim aspect. It happens that it is more a problem in Muslim countries but is not from religion but the culture of the people that continue the practice.

If you insist on a stance that flies in the face of all the contrary evidence, good luck.

http://theweek.com/a...killing-problem

Pakistan's escalating 'honor killing' problem

Almost 1,000 Pakistani women were murdered last year for allegedly dishonoring their families. A guide to the horrifying trend

http://www.meforum.o...-honor-killings

Worldwide, the majority of victims were women; a mere 7 percent were men.

Although Sikhs and Hindus do sometimes commit such murders, honor killings, both worldwide and in the West, are mainly Muslim-on-Muslim crimes. In this study, worldwide, 91 percent of perpetrators were Muslims. In North America, most killers (84 percent) were Muslims, with only a few Sikhs and even fewer Hindus perpetrating honor killings; in Europe, Muslims comprised an even larger majority at 96 percent while Sikhs were a tiny percentage. In Muslim countries, obviously almost all the perpetrators were Muslims. With only two exceptions, the victims were all members of the same religious group as their murderers.

In the West, 76 individuals or groups of multiple perpetrators killed one hundred people. Of these perpetrators, 37 percent came from Pakistan; 17 percent were of Iraqi origin while Turks and Afghans made up 12 and 11 percent, respectively. The remainder, just under a quarter in all, came from Albania, Algeria, Bosnia, Egypt, Ethiopia, Guyana, India, Iran, Morocco, and the West Bank.

[Guest Peeves]

So what's your solution?

Proposal by an expert.

What Must Be Done

How can this problem be addressed? Immigration, law enforcement, and religious authorities must all be included in education, prevention, and prosecution efforts in the matter of honor killings.

In addition, shelters for battered Muslim girls and women should be established and multilingual staff appropriately trained in the facts about honor killings. For example, young Muslim girls are frequently lured back home by their mothers. When a shelter resident receives such a phone call, the staff must immediately go on high alert. The equivalent of a federal witness protection program for the intended targets of honor killings should be created; England has already established such a program.[12] Extended safe surrogate family networks must be created to replace existing family networks; the intended victims themselves, with enormous assistance, may become each other's "sisters."

In addition, clear government warnings must be issued to Muslim, Sikh, and Hindu immigrants and citizens: Honor killings must be prosecuted in the West, and perpetrators, accomplices, and enablers must all be prosecuted. Participating families should be publicly shamed. Criminals must be deported after they have served their sentences.

Western judicial systems and governments have recently begun to address this problem. In 2006, a Danish court convicted nine members of a clan for the honor murder of Ghazala Khan.[13] In 2009, a German court sentenced a father to life in prison for having ordered his son to murder his sister for the family honor while the 20-year-old son was sentenced to nine and a half years.[14] In another case, a British court, with the help of testimony from the victim's mother and fiancé, convicted a father of a 10-year-old honor murder after the crime was reclassified;[15] and, for the first time, the Canadian government informed new immigrants:

Canada's openness and generosity do not extend to barbaric cultural practices that tolerate spousal abuse, "honour killings," female genital mutilation or other gender-based violence. Those guilty of these crimes are severely punished under Canada's criminal laws.

[16]

Islamic gender apartheid is a human rights violation and cannot be justified in the name of cultural relativism, tolerance, anti-racism, diversity, or political correctness. As long as Islamist groups continue to deny, minimize, or obfuscate the problem, and government and police officials accept their inaccurate versions of reality, women will continue to be killed for honor in the West.

The battle for women's rights is central to the battle for Europe and for Western values. It is a necessary part of true democracy, along with freedom of religion, tolerance for homosexuals, and freedom of dissent. Here, then, is exactly where the greatest battle of the twenty-first century is joined.

Phyllis Chesler is emerita professor of psychology and women's studies at the Richmond College of the City University of New York and co-founder of the Association for Women in Psychology and the National Women's Health Network.

[Black Dog]

Proposal by an expert.

Sounds reasonable. Question is though, how do you identify "honour killings"? And why should the perpetrators of honour killings be punished more than other perpetrators of domestic violence? Finally is there any evidence at all that honour killings here are being treated any differently than other crimes and thus require special treatment.

[Guest Peeves]

Sounds reasonable. Question is though, how do you identify "honour killings"? And why should the perpetrators of honour killings be punished more than other perpetrators of domestic violence? Finally is there any evidence at all that honour killings here are being treated any differently than other crimes and thus require special treatment.

An assault/murder/attack for what ever reason is still just an assault/murder/attack. The sentence is for the act, not the rubric it is filed under. Murder is murder.

To my knowledge those accused of murder under hate laws or honor deeds get the same sentence, it's only the crime that is found more or less repugnant by the populace, i,e a child murdered by a pedophile.As opposed one might suggest to a murder in the course of robbery or of a drug dealer(s).

[Guest American Woman]

I would wager that Muslim/Afghan et al parents are no different from the rest of the world, and sometimes they kill/try to kill their children for reasons other than honor/a belief that they have the right.

I would wager that Muslim/Afghan et al parents are no different from the rest of the world, and sometimes they kill/try to kill their children for reasons other than honor/a belief that they have the right. Just because some believe that and act on it doesn't mean that all do."

You would lose.

No, I wouldn't lose. You simply highlighted the wrong part of my post; it goes like this: I would wager that Muslim/Afghan et al parents are no different from the rest of the world, and sometimes they kill/try to kill their children for reasons other than honor/a belief that they have the right.

And that would be true. Just like this woman did, for example:

On Jan. 27,

Julie Powers

, 50, a mother of two in Tampa, drove her 13-year-old son, Beau, home from soccer practice and allegedly shot him in the head “for talking back” to her. Then she went upstairs and shot Calyx, her 16-year-old daughter dead as she sat at her computer doing her homework, according to an arrest affidavit. At the time, her husband was serving in Qatar as an army colonel. Powers said her kids were “mouthy.”

Read more:

http://healthland.ti.../#ixzz28w8ZAxcT

[Black Dog]

An assault/murder/attack for what ever reason is still just an assault/murder/attack. The sentence is for the act, not the rubric it is filed under. Murder is murder.

To my knowledge those accused of murder under hate laws or honor deeds get the same sentence, it's only the crime that is found more or less repugnant by the populace, i,e a child murdered by a pedophile.As opposed one might suggest to a murder in the course of robbery or of a drug dealer(s).

Okay, so what is actually different here? AFAIK, non-citizens who commit serious crimes get deported. And it's not like anyone else is getting off with lighter sentences for these sorts of crimes.

The question, then, is: is the system broken on our end? Or is this a cultural problem that we as outsiders can't solve?

[Guest Peeves]

No, I wouldn't lose. You simply highlighted the wrong part of my post; it goes like this: I would wager that Muslim/Afghan et al parents are no different from the rest of the world, and sometimes they kill/try to kill their children for reasons other than honor/a belief that they have the right.

"wager that Muslim/Afghan et al parents are no different from the rest of the world, and sometimes they kill/try to kill their children for reasons other than honor/a belief that they have the right.

No different!

Let's take your wager to the realm of reality.

But the facts prove that culturally they are different, much different. murders are different too.

I need to understand your position more clearly. Are you suggesting that there is no difference between Pakistan's killings of women and children for cultural reasons than in the Western democracies?

There is no doubt that occasionally a Western parent will inflict trauma or death on a child or spouse. There are certainly cases of murder in cultural societies that don't turn on honor.

OCCASIONALLY. No one could dispute that. However there is a manifest difference. The West does not have a patriarchal society whereas Pakistan-Afghanistan et al, certainly do.

The West does not have laws specifically against honor killings because it's an anomaly here, perpetrated by a few particular immigrant cultures.

Unfortunately not so elsewhere. Laws against honor killings are required as it is toooooo common.

PAKISTAN: New "honour killing" law does not go far enough - rights groups

Lahore, 27 October 2004 (IRIN) - Pakistan's lower house of parliament strengthened a law against honour killings on Tuesday, but opposition parties and human rights activists say it lacks bite and sincerity.

The UN Children's Agency UNICEF defines honour killing as an ancient practice in which men kill female relatives in the name of family "honour" for forced or suspected sexual activity outside marriage or even when they have been victims of rape.

Opposition lawmakers staged a walkout as Pakistan's National Assembly approved the amendment, which increases the minimum jail term for people convicted of an honour-related crime from seven to 10 years.

The government had pushed to the sidelines an opposition bill on honour killing drafted in consultation with NGOs, the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) and the Aurat Foundation. It said it would introduce its own bill in parliament.

The opposition's Sherry Rahman, whose bill was rejected by the government, described the government proposal as one that "misses the essential ingredients which could have confronted the main issues and punished those committing murder in the name of honour". The legislation is part of government efforts to eliminate the medieval custom.

Exact figures for honour killings are hard to compile because many go unreported. But according to human rights organisations, the HRCP and the NGO Madadgar, at least 758 women were killed in 2001. The province of Sindh had the highest count with 453. In 2002, around 823 women were killed in the name of honour, most in Sindh (423). In 2003, 1,261 women were killed for honour, 638 in Sindh and 463 in Punjab province.

[Guest]

Another one. Strangely enough, from the same culture. Go figure, eh? Must be a coincidence.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/10/toronto-mothers-throat-slit-after-drifting-from-afghan-culture-jury-hears-in-alleged-honour-killing-trial/

[Bonam]

Sounds reasonable. Question is though, how do you identify "honour killings"? And why should the perpetrators of honour killings be punished more than other perpetrators of domestic violence? Finally is there any evidence at all that honour killings here are being treated any differently than other crimes and thus require special treatment.

One could ask the same questions regarding "hate crimes". And yet people keep track of those. And those who don't like people bringing up "honour killings" are usually the same people quick to talk about "hate crimes".

[Black Dog]

One could ask the same questions regarding "hate crimes". And yet people keep track of those. And those who don't like people bringing up "honour killings" are usually the same people quick to talk about "hate crimes".

Who said anything about not keeping track of these things?