Afghan-Cdn mother attempted honor killing of daughter

[Mr.Canada]

MONTREAL – For months, Bahar Ebrahimi had been rebelling against her parents, complaining their Afghan culture and Muslim religion were suffocating her. “I want to enjoy my life. I want to feel what the other ones feel,” she told them, according to her mother’s statement to police.

. “Then I stab her, stab her neck,” she confessed. “She said, ‘No Mom!’ I said, ‘It’s for your good. Let me finish.’ ”

“She live with that wound,” she continued, pointing to her neck, “she remembers me.” The experience “will make her strong and give her wisdom. . . . It means she will give up her ways of living.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/26/its-for-your-good-let-me-finish-afghan-canadian-told-police-she-stabbed-daughter-with-kitchen-knife/

So again another person from Islam performs an honor killing on their teenage daughter. What was her crime? Wanting to live as a normal Canadian teenager. What a sin. It's only a miracle that she didn't die.

This is the mindset we are importing into Canada and of course this is not being covered by the mainstream media. Only the NP has the stones to do a story on this tragic event. Had this person not been Muslim it would be front page news. This coddling of Islam has to stop. This pretending that their are not dangerous elements to Islam have to stop. Canada needs to wake up to the reality that not every culture is worthy of bearing the Canadian citizenship.

Yes the second generation daughter seems to be well adjusted and shunning her Muslim ways but that is a small consolation to almost being killed. Surely this cannot be allowed to continue. These parents knew what they were doing was wrong and not permitted in this country and did it anyways.

We have to remember that this is normal behavior in this culture. Nothing out of the ordinary going on here. This would be accepted in their own country. I don't think it's a culture we need to import into Canada but guess what? it's too late because it's already here. Yet we're supposed to show compassion and tolerance towards all other cultures. This culturee is equal t our own apparently.

No amount of education is going to change these people. As I said they raised a daughter in Canada so they have been here for a long time and knew it was wrong but did it anyways.

The MSM is trying to hide anything that could damage Islam. Thank you NP for having the courage to post this in your paper.

[Guest American Woman]

I see it reported in several media outlets online, not just the NP.

And while this is an example of a mother losing control and believing she did the right thing, I don't think it would be considered an "honor killing" so much as a crime of passion (ie: losing control). It wasn't planned, which I believe is an aspect of honor killing, and it sounds as if she did it out of anger, not 'losing honor.'

It's a mindset of some Muslims who emigrate to our nations, so I think it's a mistake to be so PC about everything that we give the impression of "complete tolerance" - though it sounds as if the mother realizes that she will "pay the price" for her actions. Interesting, though, that her biggest regret is not almost killing her daughter, but the fact that she will not be able to be there for her other children.

[Mr.Canada]

If it was white mother stabbing her daughter in the neck it would be on every media outlet but since it's a Muslim people are afraid to cover it.

As her crying husband spoke to Bahar in the basement of their Dorval home, Ms. Kaleki went upstairs and grabbed a large knife from the kitchen counter, the one she used to chop meat, she recounted. “I said, ‘This is the time.’ ”

She hid the knife under her T-shirt, returned to the basement, and told her husband the problem would best be resolved between mother and daughter. “Just leave us alone for five minutes,” she said she told him. “Don’t come until I call you.”

He left and she cuddled her first-born and told her to lie on her stomach so she could give her a back massage. “Then I stab her, stab her neck,” she confessed. “She said, ‘No Mom!’ I said, ‘It’s for your good. Let me finish.’ ”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/26/its-for-your-good-let-me-finish-afghan-canadian-told-police-she-stabbed-daughter-with-kitchen-knife/

If this isn't premeditation then I don't know what is. It speaks for itself. This wasn't a crime of passion but a planned event.

This girl in Canada wanted to live as normal Canadian teenager and her parents from Afghanistan, unable to control her decided to do something about it. Sad but frustrating that people will continue to make excuses for people who come to Canada and break the laws.

[Michael Hardner]

The accusation of 'making excuses' is just another way of saying "shut up and let us post as many of these anti-Muslim stories as we want to".

You have the right to talk about problems, but I personally am getting sick of this topic - some courses of action were suggested, there's not much else to discuss is there ?

As I have pointed out in the past, it's not a condemnation forum or an outrage forum. We had a perfectly interesting thread started today about current perceptions of sexual harassment in the workplace. That was interesting and provided a good amount of back-and-forth.

Muslim crimes... really... done to death on here IMO.

[Guest American Woman]

If it was white mother stabbing her daughter in the neck it would be on every media outlet but since it's a Muslim people are afraid to cover it.

Again. I've seen it covered in many news outlets. Where are you getting this "people are afraid to cover it" from?

If this isn't premeditation then I don't know what is. It speaks for itself. This wasn't a crime of passion but a planned event.

"Planned" two minutes before it took place isn't "premeditation." She acted in the heat of the moment, from the sound of it.

This girl in Canada wanted to live as normal Canadian teenager and her parents from Afghanistan, unable to control her decided to do something about it. Sad but frustrating that people will continue to make excuses for people who come to Canada and break the laws.

Who is making excuses for it?

[Bonam]

The accusation of 'making excuses' is just another way of saying "shut up and let us post as many of these anti-Muslim stories as we want to".

You have the right to talk about problems, but I personally am getting sick of this topic - some courses of action were suggested, there's not much else to discuss is there ?

As I have pointed out in the past, it's not a condemnation forum or an outrage forum. We had a perfectly interesting thread started today about current perceptions of sexual harassment in the workplace. That was interesting and provided a good amount of back-and-forth.

Muslim crimes... really... done to death on here IMO.

The situation still exists, and people will keep talking about it if they continue to find something objectionable about it. That some other posters such as yourself might find the topic tiresome is no reason that others should not post about it. For those uninterested in certain topics, there is always the option of not opening them, not reading them.

As a forum veteran with over 14,000 posts and a "facilitator", I would think you would have learned this about forums by now. When I see yet another of the 43024803258032550432573 climate change threads we've had do I bother reading every post, then getting exasperated and ranting about why the heck people are still talking about it? No. I just don't bother. Or does your job as facilitator require you to read every thread in detail? I could see how that would quickly become very tiresome.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Bonam

[Guest American Woman]

Muslim crimes... really... done to death on here IMO.

A lot of topics have been "done to death on here" - do you openly object to all of them, too?

[Mr.Canada]

This is an attempted honor killing no doubt about it.

Michael this is going on in Canada by people who we let into this country to be productive immigrants. I'm sorry if you don't see that as worthy of discussion. I'm not prepared to bury my head in the sand and pretend it isn't going on.

I want to keep it in everyones face so they can see what cultures our government is letting into the country telling us these people are our equals in every way and that their culture should be embraced and added to the social fabric that is Canada. We shouldn't put up with those lies.

This poor girl almost lost her life and it's tragic in this day and age in this country people are still living in the 7th century. We're supposed to be progressive on Canada. I don't see anything progressive about this crime. In her home country I doubt she wouldn't even be prosecuted.

I don't think the pamphlet about Canada for new immigrants is working.

Michael I respect you as a mod and as a poster but this needs to be exposed.

Michael my threads aren't anti Muslim they are anti backward culture, anti violent Islamic jihadist. These Muslims are following the Medina passages of the Koran instead of the Mecca passages of the Koran. This is what I have a problem with.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Mr.Canada

[Michael Hardner]

A lot of topics have been "done to death on here" - do you openly object to all of them, too?

Very good question. I hadn't thought of it. I'll admit that the latest round of anti-Muslim discussions (my characterization, I'll admit that) have taken me to this place. But now that you mention it, there are some other topics that I think amount to little more than spam on here.

"Harper sucks" threads, based on every minor thing that anyone associated with his government does.

"Political gaffe" threads of any stripe.

Climate Change threads - far too many of these happen than are needed.

I have to separate my bordeom and distaste for such things from my responsibilities as facilitator. I don't think I have moved on any of these threads, except when they're obviously in breach of the rules. There's nothing I can say about them in that regard as long as the Rules and Guidelines are followed, of course.

[Michael Hardner]

And... here I should chastise myself for thread drift !

[Michael Hardner]

This is an attempted honor killing no doubt about it.

Michael this is going on in Canada by people who we let into this country to be productive immigrants. I'm sorry if you don't see that as worthy of discussion. I'm not prepared to bury my head in the sand and pretend it isn't going on.

After a full week of these topics - we have a suggestion by Kraychik to screen potential immigrants based on their values, which I assume means constitutional assumptions around equality of groups, etc.. That idea sounds practical to me.

I don't think anybody here would much disagree with that.

How many new threads will happen before another good suggestion can be discussed ?

This poor girl almost lost her life and it's tragic in this day and age in this country people are still living in the 7th century. We're supposed to be progressive on Canada. I don't see anything progressive about this crime. In her home country I doubt she wouldn't even be prosecuted.

Would you shut down all immigration from a country or culture based on a single honour killing ?

If not, then what is the value of a life ?

Michael I respect you as a mod and as a poster but this needs to be exposed.

Based on this week's traffic, I really don't think exposure of this issue is a problem.

[Guest American Woman]

This is an attempted honor killing no doubt about it.

The mother has made no reference at all to "family honor." She objected to her daughter's lifestyle, but it sounds as if it's only because she thought it was a harmful lifestyle for her daughter, not that it brought "dishonor" to the family. She didn't feel that her 19 year old daughter should be drinking, smoking, clubbing, and going out with boys - and she was upset, too, that her daughter was lying about it. As a side note, Muslim parents aren't the only parents who ever feel that way.

You said in the opening post (emphasis mine): "Yes the second generation daughter seems to be well adjusted and shunning her Muslim ways but that is a small consolation to almost being killed. Surely this cannot be allowed to continue. These parents knew what they were doing was wrong and not permitted in this country and did it anyways."

You say "these parents." Plural. Her father, upon hearing his daughter's screams, rushed downstairs and grabbed the knife away from her mother. Yet you are including him, too.

This most definitely was an attempted murder, by a parent who admits that she lost control, but the more I read about it, it doesn't have the markings of a premeditated murder and/or an honor killing. Not every Muslim who kills is doing it out of a sense of honor. Do you think that Muslims are unique from everyone else in the world in that they would never commit murder but for the "honor" factor?

Edited September 29, 2012 by American Woman

[eyeball]

After a full week of these topics - we have a suggestion by Kraychik to screen potential immigrants based on their values, which I assume means constitutional assumptions around equality of groups, etc.. That idea sounds practical to me.

Me too.

Can we screen for sycophancy, please?

[Michael Hardner]

Can we screen for sycophancy, please?

Here's an idea: Let's deport any Canadian who wastes too many resources to a country where you have to be careful about your consumption.

Given the fact that we have problems in this regard, I'm sure everyone will prioritize this and get behind that one.

etc.

[Mr.Canada]

The mother has made no reference at all to "family honor." She objected to her daughter's lifestyle, but it sounds as if it's only because she thought it was a harmful lifestyle for her daughter, not that it brought "dishonor" to the family. She didn't feel that her 19 year old daughter should be drinking, smoking, clubbing, and going out with boys. As a side point, Muslim parents aren't the only parents who ever feel that way.

You said in the opening post (emphasis mine): "Yes the second generation daughter seems to be well adjusted and shunning her Muslim ways but that is a small consolation to almost being killed. Surely this cannot be allowed to continue. These parents knew what they were doing was wrong and not permitted in this country and did it anyways."

You say "these parents." Plural. Her father, upon hearing his daughter's screams, rushed downstairs and grabbed the knife away from her mother. Yet you are including him, too.

This most definitely was an attempted murder, by a parent who admits that she lost control, but the more I read about it, it doesn't have the markings of a premeditated murder and/or an honor killing. Not every Muslim who kills is doing it out of a sense of honor. Do you think that Muslims are unique from everyone else in the world in that they would never commit murder but for the "honor" factor?

Earlier this week, Paradis was also told that Kaleki said, to the officer who arrested her: “It’s my daughter, I can do what I want.” She had also said at one point that the attack would make her daughter strong “and give her wisdom.”

The father left the basement at the instruction of his wife. He was crying, he knew what was about to happen. The mother didn't just pick up whatever was handy and bash her daughter with she went upstairs grabbing the knife with the intent of killing her daughter. Premeditated

You're seriously kidding yourself if just because they don't say it in the article that it was an attempted honor killing that that is exactly what it was. Your fear of offending people is noted but it isn't going to help.

Everyone knows it was an attempted honor killing no matter if people are afraid to call it that or not.

At one point, Bertrand asked Kaleki, who is Muslim and originally from Afghanistan, whether she felt that what she did “was necessary.”

“No it was not. It was not,” Kaleki said through tears. “I went against my religion. I went against my God.

This confirms that it is the culture that is a problem not the religion itself.

Before it happened, Kaleki and her daughter had argued over how Ebrahimi had stayed out late some nights. Kaleki said she felt pressure to keep bad impressions of their daughter from her husband, who she described during the interrogation as “a second God.”

I'm all for patriarchy but this is ridiculous. A man portrayed as a deity is going too far. This is the structure of the family unit here. Something definitely wrong here. What do you do when "God" isn't happy? You honor him of course, you do anything you can to ensure his happiness. To honor him.

“My little one, she saw me. She saw me. That hurts, you know? That kills me. I’m not that person. Do you think she will ever forgive me? Do you think she will forget it? No way.”

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/montreal/Johra+Kaleki+sobbed+during+police+interrogation+after/7304563/story.html

No remorse for what she did to her eldest daughter only a concern for her remaining children. Would she do the same to them if they disobeyed the house rules and angered the "second God"?

Edited September 29, 2012 by Mr.Canada

[Peter F]

This is an attempted honor killing no doubt about it.

Michael this is going on in Canada by people who we let into this country to be productive immigrants. I'm sorry if you don't see that as worthy of discussion. I'm not prepared to bury my head in the sand and pretend it isn't going on.

I want to keep it in everyones face so they can see what cultures our government is letting into the country telling us these people are our equals in every way and that their culture should be embraced and added to the social fabric that is Canada. We shouldn't put up with those lies.

This poor girl almost lost her life and it's tragic in this day and age in this country people are still living in the 7th century. We're supposed to be progressive on Canada. I don't see anything progressive about this crime. In her home country I doubt she wouldn't even be prosecuted.

I don't think the pamphlet about Canada for new immigrants is working.

Michael I respect you as a mod and as a poster but this needs to be exposed.

Michael my threads aren't anti Muslim they are anti backward culture, anti violent Islamic jihadist. These Muslims are following the Medina passages of the Koran instead of the Mecca passages of the Koran. This is what I have a problem with.

Lets review; Woman commits crime - attempted murder or assault or something. Woman arrested for committing crime. Perhaps there'll be a trial maybe? Maybe she'll be found guilty and sent to prison maybe.

This sort of thing happens often enough. That the perp is a muslim has dickall to do with anything.

[Mr.Canada]

Lets review; Woman commits crime - attempted murder or assault or something. Woman arrested for committing crime. Perhaps there'll be a trial maybe? Maybe she'll be found guilty and sent to prison maybe.

This sort of thing happens often enough. That the perp is a muslim has dickall to do with anything.

Did it have "dickall" to do with the Shafia parents drowning all their children in Kingston?

Did it have "dickall" to do with a father and brother killing their daughter/sister Aqsa Parvez in Mississauga?

[Peter F]

Did it have "dickall" to do with the Shafia parents drowning all their children in Kingston?

Did it have "dickall" to do with a father and brother killing their daughter/sister Aqsa Parvez in Mississauga?

yup.

[Mr.Canada]

yup.

Wow. That's pretty naive but you're free to believe what you want. The majority of the public think as I do on this subject thankfully and are outraged about honour violence.

[Peter F]

Wow. That's pretty naive but you're free to believe what you want. The majority of the public think as I do on this subject thankfully and are outraged about honour violence.

Does drunken violence outrage you?

[Guest American Woman]

The father left the basement at the instruction of his wife. He was crying, he knew what was about to happen. The mother didn't just pick up whatever was handy and bash her daughter with she went upstairs grabbing the knife with the intent of killing her daughter. Premeditated

The way I read it, the father was crying because he was upset over the behavior of the daughter. According to the mother, she hid the knife under her t-shirt and told the father that the matter was best solved between mother and daughter - to leave them alone for a bit, which the father did. When the father heard the screams, he ran down to the basement and grabbed the knife. You are implicating the father, making him guilty, with no basis whatsoever.

The mother was already agitated when she went and grabbed the knife. She didn't "premeditate it," ie: plan it ahead of time. She was already agitated. Just as any murder by gun, knife, or any other object is not premeditated if it happens in the heat of the moment. She had already lost control when she went and grabbed the knife; she didn't plan that ahead of time, in a moment of calm, deliberately going through with her plan. She was acting in the heat of the moment.

You're seriously kidding yourself if just because they don't say it in the article that it was an attempted honor killing that that is exactly what it was.

Actually, I've read a few articles that referred to it as a possible attempted honor killing in some people's eyes, but here's the thing - I don't need some unknown person writing an article to tell me what to think. I can read the facts that are available and draw my own conclusions. It's called critical thinking.

Your fear of offending people is noted but it isn't going to help.

x infinity.

I have no fear of offending people, and if you knew even slightly what you were talking about, you would realize that. If I thought it looked premeditated and/or like an honor killing, I would say so - regardless of who it might offend.

Everyone knows it was an attempted honor killing no matter if people are afraid to call it that or not.

"Everyone" doesn't "know" that.

This confirms that it is the culture that is a problem not the religion itself.

It "confirms" nothing of the sort, but perhaps the culture is a problem when it comes to assimilation into Canadian society. That still doesn't make this an attempted honor killing.

I'm all for patriarchy but this is ridiculous.

I'm not; I personally am not even remotely "all for it."

A man portrayed as a deity is going too far.

Of course it is, but it has nothing to do with "honor," and is really no different from the Christian mother who killed her kids because God/Jesus told her to.

This is the structure of the family unit here. Something definitely wrong here. What do you do when "God" isn't happy? You honor him of course, you do anything you can to ensure his happiness. To honor him.

That's your take on it, not hers.

No remorse for what she did to her eldest daughter only a concern for her remaining children. Would she do the same to them if they disobeyed the house rules and angered the "second God"?

She's not the first parent to have no remorse for killing/attempting to kill her child, and this also has nothing to do with "honor."

[Bonam]

The mother was already agitated when she went and grabbed the knife. She didn't "premeditate it," ie: plan it ahead of time. She was already agitated. Just as any murder by gun, knife, or any other object is not premeditated if it happens in the heat of the moment. She had already lost control when she went and grabbed the knife; she didn't plan that ahead of time, in a moment of calm, deliberately going through with her plan. She was acting in the heat of the moment.

That's one heck of a long "moment".

[Mr.Canada]

Girls are typically abused by parents who interpret a child’s successful adjustment to Canadian cultural ways as shameful, Erman said.

“There is violence and girls are afraid,” she said.

Honour violence is prevalent according to social agencies in Canada. This agency for immigrants claims that 25% of immigrant women she sees are experiencing honour violence. This is terrible and inexcusable.

Murtuza Syed says his Imam marries one couple per week, but divorces two — many because of violence.

Syed blames men for misinterpreting the Qur'an.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2012/05/30/calgary-honour-violence.html

The Qur'an is the Muslim holy book and it's being misinterpreted by people who are perpetrating violence against female family members. Being Muslim is definitely a factor in the honour abuse of women.

[Peter F]

Honour violence is prevalent according to social agencies in Canada. This agency for immigrants claims that 25% of immigrant women she sees are experiencing honour violence. This is terrible and inexcusable.

The Qur'an is the Muslim holy book and it's being misinterpreted by people who are perpetrating violence against female family members. Being Muslim is definitely a factor in the honour abuse of women.

Definately? i think not.

Heres a short list of women being murdered in Canada and religion has very little to do with any of them.

Link

[Guest American Woman]

That's one heck of a long "moment".

Do you not understand what "premeditated" vs. "the heat of the moment" means? It's doesn't literally mean "a minute," if that's your belief. When one loses control to that extent, and acts on their anger, their loss of control, it generally lasts more than a minute - but is referred to as "the heat of the moment."