Omar is back

[madmax]

I think it's disgusting that the opposition are using Kadhr to gain political brownie points.

While the comments of the Liberal Party may be a tad hypocritical, the comments so far by the opposition are valid and required in any society that values good government and the rule of law.

If you suggest that invoking the name Kahdr is gaining political brownie points, I believe you are sadly mistaken.

Regardless the government must justify its course of action.

The Khadr issue is a 3rd rail. It is not more positive for the government then for the opposition and it invokes emotional passions from the public in general, that lash out at everything and anything, be they coming from those with Centre Right or Centre Left leanings. Its just a matter of the target.

Those on the Right, don't believe the Conservatives did enough to keep him out (not a good thing for Conservatives) and those on the Left think he was not brought back soon enough, as other Western Nations had done with their citizens in Guantanamo, including, countries like Australia and Germany.

If I recall correctly Conservatives attacked the then Liberal Government for not stripping the citizen rights of the Khadrs.

It is the job of the opposition to highlight alternatives, even if they don't do anything any different when they achieve power.

I don't believe the Liberals would have brought Khadr back any sooner.

Again as for brownie points. Its a net loss story for any political party.

[PIK]

Calling him a child soldier is a insult to the real childs soldiers of the world. How many canadians joined up to fight in the world wars at a very young age? And they KNEW what they were doing. He was involved in mining a bottle neck in a road to kill americans that easily could have been canadians. The americans will say anything to get rid of him. And finally the real reason behind this and how easily it could have been avoided, Jean Chretien. If he would have not call the pakinstans and demand that the his terrorist father be released, none of this ever would have happened. The libs made this mess and harper got stuck with it. So a big thanks to Johnny C for sticking his nose in where it should not have been in the 1st place.

[Peter F]

I think it's disgusting that the opposition are using Kadhr to gain political brownie points.

He was taken to Bin Laden's terrorist camps at age 11, he was trained in small arms, AK-47s, PK guns and RPGS. He was a seasoned insurgent, laying land mines intended to kill Canadians and their allies.

Some may want to give him a hero's welcome but they could reap what they sow.

Seasoned veteran?? The shootemup at khost was the first time he'd ever been under fire. Seasoned veteran my ass. Terrified kid more like.

and weapons training too! His weapons training amounted to heres an ak47 and heres the clip of ammo. This goes in here like so, now shoot at that target....ok your trained.

People are assigning him all sorts of talents based on nothing-at-all not to mention all the crimes of everyone else are dumped on him too.

He's not Bond. So lets stop trying to make him out to be some sort of evil genius.

No one saw him throw the grenade. They assumed it was him because of the direction the grenade 'probably' came from and Khadr was the only guy left alive in that direction - the other two that were also in that direction having been killed alreadly.

and that was his crime. Pretty goddamn flimsy, but nevertheless, after 7 or so years of confinement with no light at the end of his tunnel , he copped to the crime.

He has been assigned all western fears. Every cruelty that people have heard of happening has been assigned to Omar Khadr. Terrorists cutting of heads? Omar probably wants to do that! Skinned people alive? Omar probably wants to do that. Throw acid in the faces little girls? probably Omar.

I suggest it is more reasonable to keep things confined to what Omar actually did rather than letting our imaginations run amok.

[Signals.Cpl]

And that trial as an adult included torture to obtain confession and the dubious legal authority of the U.S. to define who's a soldier, and who's an "enemy combatant." Even if the story that he threw the grenade was true, it was an act committed on a battlefield.

On a battlefield he did not belong on, fighting his own country and its allies. He could have surrendered but instead he decided to throw a grenade and he had to live with that decision. And if the US did not define who is a soldier and who is an enemy combatant who would? The "people" he was fighting for actively seek to make sure they don't fall in to any proper category according to International Law and then people complain that the US decided which category to put them in.

[Signals.Cpl]

Canada failed to up hold its agreement to an international treaty, as was covered earlier in this thread. I'll repost it for the benefit of yourself and anyone else who may have missed it

I hope you realize that the US captured Omar Khadr, our agreements do not have much effect on their decision. So is it your opinion that Canada failed to force the US to give us Khadr so we can rehabilitate? Should we interfere in another nations internal legal proceedings in order to satisfy an agreement?

[Peter F]

On a battlefield he did not belong on, fighting his own country and its allies. He could have surrendered but instead he decided to throw a grenade and he had to live with that decision. And if the US did not define who is a soldier and who is an enemy combatant who would? The "people" he was fighting for actively seek to make sure they don't fall in to any proper category according to International Law and then people complain that the US decided which category to put them in.

He already falls into a catagory: Murderer (alleged). That being so what was all the rigamarole with creating military commisions? Murderers are tried every day in civil courts. Hell, even people who are charged with war-crimes end up in civilian courtrooms. But that would be too much trouble producing evidence and having the accused actually see the evidence etc.

And I think your idea that 'he could have surrendered' is very very far fetched. Once the American SF boys start an assault they are not going in to take prisoners. They shoot everyone - just like Haditha and just like Khost. Omar was the only one to survive the assualt and that by some sort of miracle.

[Signals.Cpl]

Seasoned veteran??

He was making IED's, thats seasoned enough.

The shootemup at khost was the first time he'd ever been under fire. Seasoned veteran my ass. Terrified kid more like.

How would you know how many times he has been under fire?

and weapons training too! His weapons training amounted to heres an ak47 and heres the clip of ammo. This goes in here like so, now shoot at that target....ok your trained.

I don't know if you are aware but that IS weapons training, he knew how to use the weapon and what it did.

People are assigning him all sorts of talents based on nothing-at-all not to mention all the crimes of everyone else are dumped on him too.

What crimes are being assigned to him that he did not commit?

He's not Bond. So lets stop trying to make him out to be some sort of evil genius.

No one would ever accuse him of being a genius.

No one saw him throw the grenade.

He admitted to it, good enough.

They assumed it was him because of the direction the grenade 'probably' came from and Khadr was the only guy left alive in that direction - the other two that were also in that direction having been killed alreadly.

Must have been the ghost of the other guys that threw the grenade then? Unless you would like to explain how a dead piece of shit could throw a grenade Omar Khadr is the guilty party.

and that was his crime.

Considering his actions up to that point that was enough. Or is murder not ranked that high on your list...

Pretty goddamn flimsy, but nevertheless, after 7 or so years of confinement with no light at the end of his tunnel , he copped to the crime.

So a guilty plea means nothing... does that apply to the rest of those who committed crimes and pleaded guilty? Do we assume anyone who pleads guilty is innocent?

He has been assigned all western fears. Every cruelty that people have heard of happening has been assigned to Omar Khadr.

He has been assigned the crimes he committed nothing more.

Terrorists cutting of heads? Omar probably wants to do that! Skinned people alive? Omar probably wants to do that. Throw acid in the faces little girls? probably Omar.

You are the company you keep, if he chooses to hangout with the human garbage that beheads people, throws acid in little girl's faces and all the other nasty stuff then there is bound to be some bad feelings over that.

I suggest it is more reasonable to keep things confined to what Omar actually did rather than letting our imaginations run amok.

And we are, he killed a US Army Sgt., he assembled and set up IED's many types of IED are not remotely controlled so they don't discriminate between soldier and civilian. He was a member of a terrorist organization that did a nasty thing or two so he gets some bad press because of that.

[madmax]

Calling him a child soldier is a insult to the real childs soldiers of the world.

Is this a time joke???

:lol:

[madmax]

I hope you realize that the US captured Omar Khadr, our agreements do not have much effect on their decision. So is it your opinion that Canada failed to force the US to give us Khadr so we can rehabilitate? Should we interfere in another nations internal legal proceedings in order to satisfy an agreement?

Yes, in that the US signed that very same agreement. It would have to defend its actions and make a case for there actions.

Eventually, this is what happened and anyone following the previous threads on Khadr knew he would be returning to Canada and only those in denial seemed surprised by this outcome.

It was predictable and telegraphed.

[madmax]

Omar was the only one to survive the assualt and that by some sort of miracle.

That was no miracle. He was to be executed and he requested it because of his injuries. At the last moment orders were received to keep him alive for intelligence gathering

Unless you were referring to surviving the bombing in the first place?

Edited October 1, 2012 by madmax

[DogOnPorch]

That was no miracle. He was to be executed and he requested it because of his injuries. At the last moment orders were received to keep him alive for intelligence gathering.

I thought it was Omar suddenly blurting out the Queen's English.

[Signals.Cpl]

He already falls into a catagory: Murderer (alleged).

1) He did not fall in to a category according to international law. Someone doesn't get captured in a battlefield as a murderer but as a soldier or a terrorist, the two have different consequences under international law. Omar Khadr was captured as a terrorist.

2) There is nothing "alleged" about his crime, he admitted to it which means he is guilty.

That being so what was all the rigamarole with creating military commisions?

He was captured as an illegal combatant who fought his country and its allies killing one soldier in the process, therefore the military commission was necessary to determine the consequences, or the next best thing would be to hand him and all the others over to the Afghan authorities for prosecution as they were committing crimes in Afghanistan.

Murderers are tried every day in civil courts.

Then the US should have handed him to the Afghan authorities because he was committing the crimes in their nation, I wonder what he would like better, Guantanamo Bay and military commission or a civil court in Afghanistan and spending the time in their prisons.

Hell, even people who are charged with war-crimes end up in civilian courtrooms.

Were they legal combatants? That makes a world of difference.

But that would be too much trouble producing evidence and having the accused actually see the evidence etc.

Or maybe he did not qualify for civil courts.

And I think your idea that 'he could have surrendered' is very very far fetched.

Thats right, because he did not want to surrender, if the US forces had given him what he desired we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Once the American SF boys start an assault they are not going in to take prisoners.

I think a decade in Afghanistan and Iraq proves how wrong and stupid this statement is. One of the main jobs of the SOF is to gather intelligence(Take Prisoners) so stating that they kill anyone and everyone they encounter means you know absolutely nothing about them.

They shoot everyone - just like Haditha and just like Khost.

Where are you getting this from? I wan to see a source that back your bullshit claim up.

Omar was the only one to survive the assualt and that by some sort of miracle.

And he was shot because he was a threat to the soldiers. If he has surrendered then the US SOF would not have shot him.

[Signals.Cpl]

Yes, in that the US signed that very same agreement. It would have to defend its actions and make a case for there actions.

Eventually, this is what happened and anyone following the previous threads on Khadr knew he would be returning to Canada and only those in denial seemed surprised by this outcome.

It was predictable and telegraphed.

I think we all knew he was coming back, what most people would prefer is that he received a stiffer sentence and was forced to serve the time.

[kraychik]

I think we all knew he was coming back, what most people would prefer is that he received a stiffer sentence and was forced to serve the time.

The jury recommended a forty year sentence, but somehow Khadr was given an eight year sentence. Some sort of plea deal or plea bargain? I don't understand all these legalities.

Edited October 1, 2012 by kraychik

[Argus]

Omar is now an adult his family is irrelevant he doesn't require them for support...Gen. (Ret'd) Stephen Xenakis an MD is an expert in behaviour his opinion does count and he can be consulted as to his opinion...

The only quote you presented by the general said that Khadr didn't have a history of aggressive or violent behavior. Given he's been in maximum security lockup I don't find that much of a surprise.

If the general had anything to say about Khadr's Islamist leanings or beliefs you failed to cite it.

[eyeball]

Again as for brownie points. Its a net loss story for any political party.

That's why Omar sucks.

Speaking for myself I expect I'll be losing some friends over this and even risk estrangement from some of my family.

This is how deep the divisions in Canada run as a result of the moral cowardice that's been emanating from the PMO ever since Chretien occupied it. You're either with the PMO or your not. There's no middle ground here that I can see at all.

[jacee]

Even his own mother said she does not want him back.

Link?

I don't think that's true.

http://m.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1264569--omar-khadr-s-mother-maha-elsamnah-both-happy-and-sad-after-son-returns-to-canada-from-guantanamo-bay

Also, I like how we are accused of "vilifying" him. How can you vilifying someone who already is a villain?

A child indoctrinated into violent 'jihad' under threat of death ... who one US soldier said 'could not have thrown the grenade ... a villain?

I beg to differ.

Omar had no freedom of choice, and has been punished severely for an act he may not have committed ... shot in the back 3 times, deprived of proper medical care, interrogated using illegal methods to the point he lied (about Maher Arar) to make the pain stop, incarcerated in a hellhole for 10 years without trial, forced to admit a crime he may not have committed, etc etc. ...

And we all know the result of Omar's interrogation ... Maher Arar sent to Syria for a year of torture with RCMP collusion, sued the government/taxpayers for $10m and won.

The message from the Arar/Khadr debacle is that politicians and cops need more taxpayer oversight to avoid illegal rendition, torture, acting on false 'intel' and multimillion dollar lawsuits against Canadian taxpayers for perpetrating illegal and immoral crimes against an innocent man and a child.

[Argus]

For what it's worth, here's my take on this. Khadr is not responsible for being what he is. His family holds responsibility for that. I think that, given his family, how he was raised, and his age at the time, he probably has been punished more than adequately for what happened in Afghanistan. My concern, however, is that like the rest of us, he is the product of his youth. His youth was spent being indoctrinated into violent Islamism, and with weapons training and combat. Since his capture he has apparently devoted himself to the Koran. Given the version of the Koran he was raised on, and what he was likely to encounter in Cuba from the other inmates, that does not inspire me as to his harmlessness upon release.

[PIK]

Is this a time joke???

:lol:

Take sometime and read about child soldiers in africa, and what they went thru. They did not show up with daddy and I did not hear anything on him being sexually abused, completely out of it on drugs and all the other evil stuff inflicted on real child soldiers. Like I said it is a insult to put him in that catagory. And IMO the only reason dellaire is all over,is his guilt over how he handle the rwanda mission, and I am sure dellaire seen the real child soldiers over there, not the omar types either.

[eyeball]

I hope you realize that the US captured Omar Khadr, our agreements do not have much effect on their decision. So is it your opinion that Canada failed to force the US to give us Khadr so we can rehabilitate? Should we interfere in another nations internal legal proceedings in order to satisfy an agreement?

The US practically begged us to take him off their hands right from day 1. He's been just as toxic to their image and moral standing as our's.

[kraychik]

For what it's worth, here's my take on this. Khadr is not responsible for being what he is. His family holds responsibility for that. I think that, given his family, how he was raised, and his age at the time, he probably has been punished more than adequately for what happened in Afghanistan. My concern, however, is that like the rest of us, he is the product of his youth. His youth was spent being indoctrinated into violent Islamism, and with weapons training and combat. Since his capture he has apparently devoted himself to the Koran. Given the version of the Koran he was raised on, and what he was likely to encounter in Cuba from the other inmates, that does not inspire me as to his harmlessness upon release.

The funny thing is that the leftists on this board actually think you're a conservative, when you express supremely anti-conservative perspectives such as this tripe. By this standard you're just presented, nobody is responsible for anything they become, because, as you say, we're all "products of our youth" (how philosophical of you!). I guess Bill Gates, Barack Obama, and Osama Bin Laden aren't responsible for themselves, either. After all, they're all "products of their youth", right?

A cornerstone of conservative philosophy is personal responsibility, which you're just completed wiped away with your nonsense. No wonder the socialists on this board use you as a prop for their vision of conservatism, because you essentially see the world through the same lens as they do.

In your mind, engaging in terrorism and murdering an American soldier is sufficiently punished by detention in Guantanamo and and imprisonment totalling about ten years. Nevermind the fact that is unrepentant and more committed to Islamism and the cause of terrorism than ever before. No wonder the leftists on this board love you.

[jacee]

Take sometime and read about child soldiers in africa, and what they went thru. They did not show up with daddy and I did not hear anything on him being sexually abused, completely out of it on drugs and all the other evil stuff inflicted on real child soldiers. Like I said it is a insult to put him in that catagory. And IMO the only reason dellaire is all over,is his guilt over how he handle the rwanda mission, and I am sure dellaire seen the real child soldiers over there, not the omar types either.

Omar was a minor child under control of his father and under threat of death as a suicide bomber if he did not comply with his father's commands.

He and his brothers were sent to suicide-bomber training camp. When his brother rebelled against his father, Dad 'volunteered him for a suicide bomb mission. Abdurahram escaped and may have given himself up to US military as he next showed up at Guantanamo, then a variety of other places informing on insurgents to the CIA, according to him.

I'm sure Omar was quite aware of the threat of death if he rebelled, the same threat all child soldiers are subject to.

[eyeball]

I'm sure Omar was quite aware of the threat of death if he rebelled, the same threat all child soldiers are subject to.

It's probably safe to say where his preconditioning to frightening coercion came from. No wonder he confessed.

That scheming bastards who took advantage of that are the ones who should be in jail.

[Argus]

The funny thing is that the leftists on this board actually think you're a conservative, when you express supremely anti-conservative perspectives such as this tripe.

I don't think you actually know what conservatism is, kraychik ,any more than those nutty Republicans down south.

By this standard you're just presented, nobody is responsible for anything they become, because, as you say, we're all "products of our youth" (how philosophical of you!).

My favorite ideology is practicality. I'm a realist. And realistically speaking, any boy carted off to someplace in the company of his father, and involved in the society and upbringing there, would have wound up as Khadr did. That includes you, btw. He was part of a warrior group, and fought as they fought, against a common enemy. I don't hold him any more responsible for this than any other of the tribal fighters filling Afghanistan. And he has spent ten years in prison, unlike most of them.

A cornerstone of conservative philosophy is personal responsibility, which you're just completed wiped away with your nonsense.

Personal responsibility assumes an ability to make other choices. I don't see that possibility as having existed in that society at that time. What do you think he should have done? Claimed conscientious objector status?

In your mind, engaging in terrorism and murdering an American soldier is sufficiently punished by detention in Guantanamo and and imprisonment totalling about ten years.

He didn't engage in terrorism. He engaged in combat with armed and uniformed soldiers. The legalities are involved and complex given that he was not a member of that state's armed forces, but with a sort of foreign, independent outfit which was, nevertheless, accepted by and supported by the government, and which supported the government in turn. It's not like he got on a plane or went into a pizza hut and threw a grenade, after all.

No wonder the leftists on this board love you.

Yes, I constantly feel the love...

[jacee]

The jury recommended a forty year sentence, but somehow Khadr was given an eight year sentence. Some sort of plea deal or plea bargain? I don't understand all these legalities.

True, you don't.

There was no jury, no trial.

IF he had gone to trial, 40 years was the possible sentence.

Instead of risking that, Omar plead guilty for a plea bargain deal of 8 years and return to Canada after 1 year.