Omar is back

[Guest American Woman]

Thanks. I'm looking forward to many cold winter evenings agreeing and disagreeing to my heart's content.

Ah, yes. Central Alberta, I see. You must have plenty of cold winter evenings.

[Guest]

Ah, yes. Central Alberta, I see. You must have plenty of cold winter evenings.

About seven months worth, it seems. Ah well, nobody twisted my arm. I moved here from Vancouver.

[Bonam]

Winter is my favorite season. Crisp air, fresh snow in the mountains, and me hurtling down the slopes with powder spraying up

[Guest American Woman]

About seven months worth, it seems. Ah well, nobody twisted my arm. I moved here from Vancouver.

We've been known to have a cold evening or two where I live and sometimes it seems as if winter lasts 7 months here, too - but nobody is twisting my arm, either - I love it and can't imagine living where there aren't four seasons.

Edited September 30, 2012 by American Woman

[eyeball]

I've always considered him a POW. I just joined today.

Welcome, and it'll be interesting to see how the posters you've lined up with against Khadr handle such an admission coming from their side.

I know he was a kid, and if any of those who introduced him to the war are still around I'm all in favour of trying them as war criminals.

Wow he was a kid too. That's another point of order that has dominated reams of threads including everything from outright denial to blase indifference, the latter is even worse I think.

I just don't think he should be walking around free.

I don't think child soldiers should simply be released upon being rescued either but I do after they've been rehabilitated, a process which should and could have started a few days after he was captured. In fact that process did start when Ottawa announced the US had advised Canada of the capture of a Canadian citizen of young age. That's not just water that's passed under any old bridge and it's nothing compared to the amount of shit backed up by some sudden hindsight of the government's and it's decision to claw back any talk about Omar's age and leave the US to treat him like he was any other terrorist.

He was an impressionable (I assume) kid who has just spent the better part of a decade in the company of religious fanatics who think there is no better end than to die taking a few infidels with you.

No, he's spent the better part of the last decade in the custody of war criminals if your admission that Omar Khadr was both a kid and a POW holds up, at least according to some pretty serious conventions we've signed onto. Then there's the manner in which so many of our sides other POW's were mistreated upon capture.

Edited September 30, 2012 by eyeball

[Guest American Woman]

Welcome, and it'll be interesting to see how the posters you've lined up with against Khadr handle such an admission coming from their side.

"Their side??" I have no "side;" only my personal beliefs.

Edited to add: FYI, I'd have no problem with Khadr being held until the conflict is over and then being released in Afghanistan.

Edited September 30, 2012 by American Woman

[Tilter]

All the best soldiers are civilian volunteers. The alternative is conscription, and conscripts don't do nearly as good a job.

He was a volunteer on the side that was killing our allies--- he is a war criminal, murderer & a traitor to his country.

[eyeball]

"Their side??" I have no "side;" only my personal beliefs.

I definitely had you in mind when I said there were more than a few sides, and or beliefs if you prefer, in this.

Edited to add: FYI, I'd have no problem with Khadr being held until the conflict is over and then being released in Afghanistan.

I guess that would be a notch above putting him in an overcrowded cell with a sodomist. I can't think of any legal process that would facilitate either case though. Pity that eh?

[Guest American Woman]

I guess that would be a notch above putting him in an overcrowded cell with a sodomist. I can't think of any legal process that would facilitate either case though. Pity that eh?

He's not the U.S. government's problem, or the American taxpayer's burden, any more - it will be interesting to see how Canada deals with him now.

[jacee]

He was a volunteer on the side that was killing our allies--- he is a war criminal, murderer & a traitor to his country.

Omar wasn't of age to volunteer himself.

He was a minor, 'volunteered' by his father.

If he had rebelled, his father would have 'volunteered' Omar as a suicide bomber.

Some 'choice' for a kid to have to make.

Edited September 30, 2012 by jacee

[Guest American Woman]

Omar wasn't of age to volunteer himself.

He was a minor, 'volunteered' by his father.

If he had rebelled, his father would have 'volunteered' Omar as a suicide bomber.

Some choice for a kid to have to make.

Makes one wonder why his father didn't "volunteer" his brothers, how they escaped being suicide bombers, eh?

[kimmy]

This comment has received a lot of responses, but I thought it was meant to be somewhat facetious. Yes? No?

Not really facetious. I really do think Omar sucks. I just didn't see much to talk about beyond that. He sucks, but unless he and the rest of his clan decide to get lost, they're Canadian citizens and entitled to due process.

Ultimately, to me, the rule of law and due process is the most important thing. So as much as Omar sucks, I would not wish to see due process abused any further to keep him off the street.

Yes, I imagine it must suck to be lined up against him with the sort of people you usually see lined up with the state and its glorious authority.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here.

I'm not really that big of a fan of "the glorious authority of the state".

And I wouldn't put him in the sort of people who are usually lined up against the state, either. Are you comparing Omar to people like the G20 protestors or the Occupy protestors? If you are, that's ludicrous.

Omar wasn't in Afghanistan to oppose the authority of our state, he was in Afghanistan to support a far more authoritarian regime than our own.

Well, you're assuming he's legit guilty of the charges against him. Being held at gitmo as a child throughout US military-led trials isn't exactly the definition of due process, so a guilty plea (via plea bargain) by him means butt-all in terms of his legit guilt IMO.

Also remember that he was forced to move to Afghanistan and forced to become a child soldier by his parents.

I'm not sure he's any kind of hero but I also don't know if he's a monster like many think he is. His parents are the real villians, especially his father.

Yes, I realize that Omar had little chance, being raised by such a wretched family (although, I recall one of his brothers did leave the family behind.)

Still, there are lots of horrible people who probably turned out horrible because they were raised by horrible parents. It's certainly tragic that these people were raised in such a manner, but at the end of the day they're still horrible people regardless of whatever made them horrible.

-k

[Guest]

Welcome,

Ta.

No, he's spent the better part of the last decade in the custody of war criminals if your admission that Omar Khadr was both a kid and a POW holds up,

The two are not mutually exclusive.

at least according to some pretty serious conventions we've signed onto. Then there's the manner in which so many of our sides other POW's were mistreated upon capture.

You mean beheaded? I'd rather be at Guantanamo.

[jacee]

Makes one wonder why his father didn't "volunteer" his brothers, how they escaped being suicide bombers, eh?

Abdurahman Khadr ...

He said he and his brothers were sent to Afghanistan to train with al-Qaeda by their father Ahmed Said Khadr, an Egyptian-born Canadian who is thought to have ranked high in the organisation.

I was raised to become a suicide bomber. I was raised to become a bad person," he admitted.

Having spent much of his youth with his family living in the same camp as Osama bin Laden (his father was a close associate), Khadr reluctantly trained with al-Qaida to be a suicide bomber before switching sides after the fall of the Taliban and working for the CIA as an undercover operative in Guantanamo and Bosnia.

I guess they toed their father's line, or ran away to the CIA to avoid it. But Abdurahman was an adult and could do that.

Edited September 30, 2012 by jacee

[Guest Manny]

Not really facetious. I really do think Omar sucks. I just didn't see much to talk about beyond that. He sucks, but unless he and the rest of his clan decide to get lost, they're Canadian citizens and entitled to due process.

Ultimately, to me, the rule of law and due process is the most important thing. So as much as Omar sucks, I would not wish to see due process abused any further to keep him off the street.

Well I don't believe he has received that yet... due process... so I don't understand how you can fairly say he "sucks". Throughout his ordeal as a prisoner he was utterly powerless to do or say anything. I myself cannot accept evidence portrayed in the media alone, without a fair trial and due process no one should be indicted. In that sense our nation,or government made decisions that also "sucked". And one act of stupidity does not negate the other.

[Guest American Woman]

Not really facetious. I really do think Omar sucks. I just didn't see much to talk about beyond that. He sucks, but unless he and the rest of his clan decide to get lost, they're Canadian citizens and entitled to due process.

Ultimately, to me, the rule of law and due process is the most important thing. So as much as Omar sucks, I would not wish to see due process abused any further to keep him off the street.

Would you feel the same way if it were a Canadian soldier that he had admitted to killing? And do you feel his mother, as someone who was granted citizenship, should retain her citizenship under the circumstances?

[ironstone]

I expect arguing over Khadr's case and fate will continue to irreparably divide Canadians and we'll getting be in each other's faces even more. I'm glad he's home, maybe now he'll finally get a chance at some justice.

Maybe.

Since you're glad he's "home" now,can you tell us what positive contribution you expect him to make to this country?How about his thoroughly detestable family?

The fact that this bastard is back in Canada makes my blood boil,knowing how much he will be embraced by Canada's lefties.

[madmax]

Would you feel the same way if it were a Canadian soldier that he had admitted to killing?

1) You cannot be in the Canadian Military at 14 years of Age. A Cadet learns many things, including weapons training. They are not the legal age requirement to be a Soldier. If a Cadet was in an Armouries that was bombed, then attacked by soldiers and was then shot in the back twice, and threw a grenade to defend themselves, killing the SOLDIER that is attacking, then one must look at it in the context of war and combat.

The Child Soldier, a term used to suggest that one is a CHILD not a SOLDIER, is held to a different standard then a combat trained soldier. Yes Children can kill. Yes SOLDIERS need to defend themselves from Children who may bear arms.

That CHILD is NOT a soldier.

The Soldiers who DID apprehend the Wounded Khader had the option to kill him as he laid there bleeding in a pool of blood. They were going to, until commanding orders overruled their action.

He was taken prison and charged as an Unlawful combatant.

I would call him a Child Unlawful combatant.

I would call him a child.

Considering many soldiers have died during combat operations, and when one goes into combat, it is KNOWN that the other sides intent is to KILL YOU, none of this should be surprising.

Its not like every enemy combatant is put into prison and held indefinitely.

In this case he was charged militarily and accepted a plea to admit guilt in order to be returned to Canada.

After that, it was pretty clear he was going to be returned to Canada and the efforts by the government were both costly and folly.

People are allow to feel however they wish about Khadr. I doubt he generates alot of sympathy in Canada.

But anyone can see that a boy of 14 is still a boy, even if carrying a weapon.

He has now spent 15 years as a boy and 11 years as a Prisoner, with 8 more years to go.

For some people, there is no such thing as justice.

[Signals.Cpl]

1) You cannot be in the Canadian Military at 14 years of Age. A Cadet learns many things, including weapons training. They are not the legal age requirement to be a Soldier. If a Cadet was in an Armouries that was bombed, then attacked by soldiers and was then shot in the back twice, and threw a grenade to defend themselves, killing the SOLDIER that is attacking, then one must look at it in the context of war and combat.

1)The military recruits 16 year olds which was age when he was captured minus a couple of months.

2)He was not defending himself from an attack that came out of nowhere, he actively went seeking combat and was engaged in combat against a Nation that is one of Canada's closest allies while fighting for an organization that was and is an enemy of his country. As a POW he should have been released to Afghanistan rather than Canada as he was fighting for the Taliban not Canada, and then put his ass on a no fly list.

He had no business being in Afghanistan fighting against the Afghan government and ISAF so it is unfair to say that he was just defending himself when he was a member in an organization aimed at overthrowing the legitimate government of Afghanistan and oppressing Afghanistan.

The Child Soldier, a term used to suggest that one is a CHILD not a SOLDIER, is held to a different standard then a combat trained soldier. Yes Children can kill. Yes SOLDIERS need to defend themselves from Children who may bear arms.

That CHILD is NOT a soldier.

You are right, he is not a child soldier, he is a terrorists there is a big difference.

The Soldiers who DID apprehend the Wounded Khader had the option to kill him as he laid there bleeding in a pool of blood. They were going to, until commanding orders overruled their action.

So?

He was taken prison and charged as an Unlawful combatant.

Because he is an unlawful combatant. I don't see why there is so much whining about this issue, the unlawful combatants actively work to fall in that category and I don't see why it's our problem.

I would call him a Child Unlawful combatant.

I call him a terrorist.

I would call him a child.

Terrorist, thats the only fair label.

Considering many soldiers have died during combat operations, and when one goes into combat, it is KNOWN that the other sides intent is to KILL YOU, none of this should be surprising.

And it should be of no surprise then that he was detained. Right? Are you suggesting that the US Army Sgt. should have expected to be killed but that Khadr should not expect that he would be detained if captured?

Its not like every enemy combatant is put into prison and held indefinitely.

I agree, keep him in jail until the War on Terror ends. I am all for this suggestion.

In this case he was charged militarily and accepted a plea to admit guilt in order to be returned to Canada.

After that, it was pretty clear he was going to be returned to Canada and the efforts by the government were both costly and folly.

But it was the government's duty to investigate him in order to make sure they had the best plan of action in place so as not to put real Canadians in jeopardy.

People are allow to feel however they wish about Khadr. I doubt he generates alot of sympathy in Canada.

I believe that he generates quite a lot of sympathy, there might even be a book in it for him.

But anyone can see that a boy of 14 is still a boy, even if carrying a weapon.

He was 16 years old minus a a little over a month.

He has now spent 15 years as a boy and 11 years as a Prisoner, with 8 more years to go.

I sure hope he stays in jail for 8 more years.

For some people, there is no such thing as justice.

Yeah I agree, for those members of the CF who are injured on operation and end up being kicked around by the government and the people for the remainder of their lives there is no justice. He spend less than 10 years in Guantanamo Bay, another 8 years(Hopefully) in Canadian custody, sue the government get a payout and laugh at the vets who get treated much worse than him even though they have done their best to serve Canada. There is absolutely no justice in this case, his brother injured in Afghanistan is given medical treatment in Canada at the expense of the very people his family despises.

[madmax]

1)The military recruits 16 year olds which was age when he was captured minus a couple of months.

That is how old I was and I was not 15 and 10 months...... next question. Nor is any Cadet under 16 in the Armed Forces, not even the Militia.

2)He was not defending himself from an attack that came out of nowhere, he actively went seeking combat and was engaged in combat against a Nation that is one of Canada's closest allies while fighting for an organization that was and is an enemy of his country.

Recruited and sent to "camp" by his father at the age of 14. He began as a "child soldier", and he was 15 when the US attack occurred. I could not sign up at 15 , a couple months shy, 4 months shy, 1 year shy, 1 week shy, 1 day shy. Regardless, you wish to play semantics. IN WAR one side is on the offensive and one is on the defensive. You need not play with the facts to make your point. The evidence as it stands in all court documents and testimonies states the operation clearly.

As a POW he should have been released to Afghanistan rather than Canada as he was fighting for the Taliban not Canada, and then put his ass on a no fly list.

The Current Afghan government of Hamid Kharzi has no need, no desire, nor legal precendent to take an unwanted foreigner prisoner, let alone one being held in US custody.

Exactly why would Afghanistan want a Canadian?

He had no business being in Afghanistan fighting against the Afghan government and ISAF so it is unfair to say that he was just defending himself when he was a member in an organization aimed at overthrowing the legitimate government of Afghanistan and oppressing Afghanistan.

All true all factual, and he did this between the age of 14 and 15.

You are right, he is not a child soldier, he is a terrorists there is a big difference.

You have swung full circle as you tried to justify a Canadian Soldier , trained by real soldiers starting at the age of 16.

So yes, you had a 15 year old, engaging in combat missions trained by Foreign Terrorist cells to do exactly as you stated above.

Because he is an unlawful combatant. I don't see why there is so much whining about this issue, the unlawful combatants actively work to fall in that category and I don't see why it's our problem.

First the whining. I normally appreciate your posts, although I fully respect Army Guys posts. When I read your post, it has a tinge of whining to it.

In other words, you are currently Whining about the outcome.

I call him a terrorist.

Terrorist, thats the only fair label.

And it should be of no surprise then that he was detained. Right? Are you suggesting that the US Army Sgt. should have expected to be killed but that Khadr should not expect that he would be detained if captured?

No, I expect justice was served and a 15 year old enemy combatant has spent 11 years in prison, been and subjected to a very miserable existence for his actions. And there is still an 8 year conviction to be served, which was the sentence provided by the Military court.

I agree, keep him in jail until the War on Terror ends. I am all for this suggestion.

A person cannot be charged twice for the same crime. The US Military has Incarcerated, charged, convicted and sentenced the offender.

The US government has decided to return him to Canada.

As I said, some people don't want to accept justice.

Yeah I agree, for those members of the CF who are injured on operation and end up being kicked around by the government and the people for the remainder of their lives there is no justice. He spend less than 10 years in Guantanamo Bay, another 8 years(Hopefully) in Canadian custody, sue the government get a payout and laugh at the vets who get treated much worse than him even though they have done their best to serve Canada. There is absolutely no justice in this case, his brother injured in Afghanistan is given medical treatment in Canada at the expense of the very people his family despises.

I concur completely with your statement regarding the Vets. The two issues are mutually exclusive. I cannot predict the future of Khadr, but i can recognise the failure of government to address injured vets.

You like to rah rah the Conservative Government. Well I supported the previous omsbudmen who was actively supporting the Veterans and their requirements. And we know what the Conservatives did about that......

[Guest Manny]

Canada could still charge him with something else, like treason perhaps.

[WIP]

I'm not surprised that supporters of Canada's vendetta against Omar Khadr are so quick to give a little nod and a wink towards sexual abuse in our justicevengeance system too.

Not many things surprise me anymore!

The Canadian Government (under Chretien) had a choice between applying the law or applying political expediency in the Omar Khadr case....and we know what they chose...and what the Harper Government has chosen since then. Because he is the son of an Islamic jihadist who wanted to go to war with U.S. proxies and put his sons in battle also, the Canadian Government washed its hands of its obligations to Canadian citizens in the Khadr Case. He was 15 years old when he was captured in Afghanistan. Even if the dubious case declaring him to have thrown a grenade that killed a U.S. CIA interrogator was true, he was not old enough to be tried as an adult for something that would have been more correctly an act of war, not a murder. But Canadian governments, both Liberal and Conservative, are more worried about looking "soft on terrorism" than they are in acting according to international law and our own law.

This attitude is after all, why that same Chretien Government allowed a Canadian national (Maher Arar) to be intercepted and sent to Syria to be tortured for information (yes, that same Syrian Government that the U.S. and allies are now declaring as an evil violator of human rights). They just took the word of CIA informants and washed their hands of him, rather than having the guts to follow the proper laws and procedures.

[Wild Bill]

Nothing to do about right or left. Stating an opinion isn't a discussion. Debate the points.

Speak for yourself, Michael. I'm interested in PIK's opinions!

[wyly]

Canada could still charge him with something else, like treason perhaps.

not a chance in hell of that...the last thing the government wants to do is become involved a court proceeding that would implicate it in the interrogation/torture of a child soldier...but it will probably happen when omar's lawyers sue for financial compensation...

[eyeball]

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here.

It seems to me your conscience is conflicted.

I'm not really that big of a fan of "the glorious authority of the state".

And yet here you are lined up with people who are.

And I wouldn't put him in the sort of people who are usually lined up against the state, either. Are you comparing Omar to people like the G20 protestors or the Occupy protestors? If you are, that's ludicrous.

No I'm saying you seem to have one foot planted in the same camp the protesters are lined up against and yet the other is poised above the protester's camp.

Omar wasn't in Afghanistan to oppose the authority of our state, he was in Afghanistan to support a far more authoritarian regime than our own.

Yes, I realize that Omar had little chance, being raised by such a wretched family (although, I recall one of his brothers did leave the family behind.)

-k

I'd listen to the side that this realization came from not the one below.

It's certainly tragic that these people were raised in such a manner, but at the end of the day they're still horrible people regardless of whatever made them horrible.