Are sweat shops really that bad?

[Mr.Canada]

I have been reading lately about these. In reality sweat shops appear to be a natural road to living in a modern world. In the west we used to be nations of farming until the Industrial revolution then people began leaving the farms to take jobs in factories. These factory jobs led to the middle class, civil rights, employment rights and better wages. Can't other countries do the same?

It would seem to me that developing countries are simply going through their own Industrial revolutions. People in these developing countries are very happy to work in the factories instead of the fields. Doesn't it smack of elitism when people want to boycott all goods from certain countries? It seems to send a message that those countries aren't rich enough for us to buy goods from. We should be supporting these developing countries instead of shunning them and having them stay in the fields instead of modernizing their societies.

[Guest Manny]

By shunning them I think people are trying to send a message to the big businesses, we want you to step up.

Most people are moral in nature and, all other things being equal would prefer that the goods they purchase are produced humanely, with minimal harm to people and the environment. To some extent even willing to pay more for it. People of the future will be ethical consumers.

[eyeball]

People of the future will be ethical consumers.

Maybe, ethical people could also be consumed in the future. Probably because they taste better.

Don't forget, when the water hole get's smaller the animals get meaner.

[Moonlight Graham]

Western businesses exploit factory workers in developing countries for their cheap labour. They can have poor safety conditions, work long hours, have abusive management etc. It makes little sense to boycott countries, but as a consumer why support a business that is exploiting workers in horrible ways? We have a standard of worker rights we deem humane in our society so why not treat people in other countries as close to that as we can? Developing countries won't always be able to match these standards but consumers can demand western corporations to support the pursuit.

[Michael Hardner]

Those of us who support workers rights in emerging markets should do so actively, rather than just complain. I follow the Maquila Solidarity Network website.

If you care about workers rights in emerging markets, or if you (like me) have been displaced by Globalized Trade at some point in your career - then pass on information and read the Maquila Solidarity Network and publicize positive change. Nike was pressured into setting up a paltry (to them) $1.5 million dollar fund to cover plant closures in Honduras, which paid out workers to 80% when suppliers closed. National Boycotts and tariffs won't help as much as publicizing positive change.

http://en.maquilasolidarity.org/node/1090?SESS89c5db41a82abcd7da7c9ac60e04ca5f=tvi7ao2olvieb1c2becl9l0o04

[guyser]

I have been reading lately about these. In reality sweat shops appear to be a natural road to living in a modern world. In the west we used to be nations of farming until the Industrial revolution then people began leaving the farms to take jobs in factories. These factory jobs led to the middle class, civil rights, employment rights and better wages. Can't other countries do the same?

Back when we revolutionized we learned on our way. Improvements in safety health, machines etc.

Today we know what it takes to make things safer for everyone, however not all buy in.

People in these developing countries are very happy to work in the factories instead of the fields.

I can think of almost 300 people who do not agree with you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/14/karachi-factory-fire-pakistan-health-safety

[eyeball]

Those of us who support workers rights in emerging markets should do so actively, rather than just complain. I follow the Maquila Solidarity Network website.

Personally, I'm a little nervous at the thought that promoting and establishing human rights should have to rely on charity. Environmental stewardship is likewise being pushed into the same sort of boutique-like slot as if they were just any other old pedestrian cause.

[Michael Hardner]

Personally, I'm a little nervous at the thought that promoting and establishing human rights should have to rely on charity.

What is the line between charity and fairness ? MSN is doing a great job of getting the money from the investment class to those who are sweating for it.

Environmental stewardship is likewise being pushed into the same sort of boutique-like slot as if they were just any other old pedestrian cause.

And even then, the cause is failing. Kudos to MSN for acting in a positive way.

[Mr.Canada]

Western businesses exploit factory workers in developing countries for their cheap labour. They can have poor safety conditions, work long hours, have abusive management etc. It makes little sense to boycott countries, but as a consumer why support a business that is exploiting workers in horrible ways? We have a standard of worker rights we deem humane in our society so why not treat people in other countries as close to that as we can? Developing countries won't always be able to match these standards but consumers can demand western corporations to support the pursuit.

Why is it exploitation? Because they have lower wages then here in the west?

Many times the factory workers abroad are making more wages than they could doing anything else in their respective countries. If not for those factories there would be no work at all, would that be better?

Workplaces exploit workers everywhere, even here. That is how business works. People work for others doing things they normally wouldn't do for profits of the business owner.

It's important to support these developing countries economies so they may one day raise themselves up like we have. To not support them is to say you're not rich enough for us to buy from, we will only buy from rich countries.

As I said workers in these countries want the factories to enlarge their factories so more of their friends can work there. If it was terrible the opposite would be true. Plus no one is forcing people to work in these factories, they do so freely.

Seems like there is a huge disconnect between what anti sweatshop camps believe and reality on the ground.

[Canuckistani]

Those of us who support workers rights in emerging markets should do so actively, rather than just complain. I follow the Maquila Solidarity Network website.

If you care about workers rights in emerging markets, or if you (like me) have been displaced by Globalized Trade at some point in your career - then pass on information and read the Maquila Solidarity Network and publicize positive change. Nike was pressured into setting up a paltry (to them) $1.5 million dollar fund to cover plant closures in Honduras, which paid out workers to 80% when suppliers closed. National Boycotts and tariffs won't help as much as publicizing positive change.

http://en.maquilasolidarity.org/node/1090?SESS89c5db41a82abcd7da7c9ac60e04ca5f=tvi7ao2olvieb1c2becl9l0o04

What about workers in developed markets that have been displaced by globalization. That's all good, is it? We should have a Canadasolidarity.ca

Sweatshops in China are better than the alternative for a lot of people. So you can say it's part of China's developmental process. But we're a globalized world now - the pressure is on to create sweatshops everywhere so the rich can get more profits. Don't know who will be left to buy their products tho, as they gut the middle class in the West.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Canuckistani

[Michael Hardner]

What about workers in developed markets that have been displaced by globalization. That's all good, is it? We should have a Canadasolidarity.ca

It's far better for us than them. And by us I mean us, including me. I was displaced, and took advantage of EI and government services that helped me adjust to displacement.

Sweatshops in China are better than the alternative for a lot of people. So you can say it's part of China's developmental process. But we're a globalized world now - the pressure is on to create sweatshops everywhere so the rich can get more profits. Don't know who will be left to buy their products tho, as they gut the middle class in the West.

The point is that there is more money now than ever - just that it's not distributing in the same way as it did. Seems like an easier problem to solve than the opposite.

[Canuckistani]

It's far better for us than them. And by us I mean us, including me. I was displaced, and took advantage of EI and government services that helped me adjust to displacement.

The point is that there is more money now than ever - just that it's not distributing in the same way as it did. Seems like an easier problem to solve than the opposite.

I don't see it being solved, I see it getting worse. The continued attack on the middle class in the West is seeing us move toward a Chinese model rather than the Chinese moving toward a Western model. We'll have global elite how owns and controls everything, with their professional class helpers, and most people as sweatshop workers or servants. I think shrugging our shoulders about what's happening in Canada, and the rest of the West, because "it's not that bad and just the way things work" it not a good idea.

[Michael Hardner]

I think shrugging our shoulders about what's happening in Canada, and the rest of the West, because "it's not that bad and just the way things work" it not a good idea.

Who is shrugging their shoulders ? MSN is coming up with actions. I see two groups of people: people who are taking advantage of the new order, making money from it and adapting, and people who complain about it.

[Canuckistani]

Who is shrugging their shoulders ? MSN is coming up with actions. I see two groups of people: people who are taking advantage of the new order, making money from it and adapting, and people who complain about it.

Yep, two groups of people. The fewer and fewer who are taking more and more of the money, and the rest. That's the problem.

[Michael Hardner]

Yep, two groups of people. The fewer and fewer who are taking more and more of the money, and the rest. That's the problem.

Any economic opportunity means that there are winners and losers. What can be done ? Well, MSN is helping people in emerging markets, I helped myself as best I could...

I would rather adapt than complain.

[carepov]

I have been reading lately about these. In reality sweat shops appear to be a natural road to living in a modern world. In the west we used to be nations of farming until the Industrial revolution then people began leaving the farms to take jobs in factories. These factory jobs led to the middle class, civil rights, employment rights and better wages. Can't other countries do the same?

It would seem to me that developing countries are simply going through their own Industrial revolutions. People in these developing countries are very happy to work in the factories instead of the fields. Doesn't it smack of elitism when people want to boycott all goods from certain countries? It seems to send a message that those countries aren't rich enough for us to buy goods from. We should be supporting these developing countries instead of shunning them and having them stay in the fields instead of modernizing their societies.

Interesting topic, as usual, this is not a yes/no or good/bad issue. It depends...

Increased foreign investment and international trade has IMO certainly been a net benefit to both OECD and especially developing countries. Major reductions in poverty and increased human development including purchasing power support this opinion.

“Sweat shops” however are a violation of human rights and more should be done to protect workers from abuse. As pointed out, the fire in Pakistan is a good example. Thank you Michael for sharing the link to MSN, it looks like a good organization!

I certainly would not support boycotting trade with a “sweatshop” country or brand (neither does MSN) but it looks like consumer pressure on companies like Nike and Disney has helped.

[carepov]

I don't see it being solved, I see it getting worse. The continued attack on the middle class in the West is seeing us move toward a Chinese model rather than the Chinese moving toward a Western model. We'll have global elite how owns and controls everything, with their professional class helpers, and most people as sweatshop workers or servants. I think shrugging our shoulders about what's happening in Canada, and the rest of the West, because "it's not that bad and just the way things work" it not a good idea.

If you are talking about inequality, world-wide it is decreasing. There are many countries where it is increasing, however you are exaggerating the problem and I do not see this as being helpful.

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/hot-topics/worldinequality.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gini_since_WWII.svg

[Mr.Canada]

Yep, two groups of people. The fewer and fewer who are taking more and more of the money, and the rest. That's the problem.

Some people strive to become rich and are not happy following but choose to lead. I don't see the problem. In our society we have followers and leaders. The vast majority are followers. Do you think it was some sort of magic that rich people became rich? Most of them worked incredibly hard at it and built their business from nothing.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Mr.Canada

[Moonlight Graham]

Why is it exploitation? Because they have lower wages then here in the west?

Yes, plus lower labour rights, lower benefits, lower environmental standards, lower worker safety standards etc.

It's true when you say that much of the time these jobs we're giving them are better than they may have had otherwise, but that doesn't mean it's still ethical to exploit as severely as possible for our selfish benefit. Consumers can demand that western businesses force factory owners in China & elsewhere to provide a minimum standard of treatment for their workers as a condition for using their labour. Overseas factories will respond under such demands no doubt. Maybe it will add a bit of extra cost to our products, but if paying $10-20 extra for a laptop will mean these workers are afforded some more reasonable working standards that are at least somewhat humane then I'm willing to pay for that.

[Mr.Canada]

Yes, plus lower labour rights, lower benefits, lower environmental standards, lower worker safety standards etc.

It's true when you say that much of the time these jobs we're giving them are better than they may have had otherwise, but that doesn't mean it's still ethical to exploit as severely as possible for our selfish benefit. Consumers can demand that western businesses force factory owners in China & elsewhere to provide a minimum standard of treatment for their workers as a condition for using their labour. Overseas factories will respond under such demands no doubt. Maybe it will add a bit of extra cost to our products, but if paying $10-20 extra for a laptop will mean these workers are afforded some more reasonable working standards that are at least somewhat humane then I'm willing to pay for that.

Well it's too bad that you're supporting elitist attitudes. You're saying that these hardworking people from poor countries aren't rich enough for you to buy goods from. That is just a terrible attitude.

No one is being exploited. The cost of living in these countries is much lower then it is here therefore the wages are lower. These people aren't being forced to work in the factories, they choose it willingly and happily. Most workers overseas are well treated, that's another myth that simply isn't true.

Stop punishing these hardworking people and stop trying to deny them a living because without the factories they would be in abject poverty instead of a growing and vibrant middle class that is emerging. Much as it did here in the west.

[Guest Manny]

Maybe, ethical people could also be consumed in the future. Probably because they taste better.

Don't forget, when the water hole get's smaller the animals get meaner.

Yeah it could be. No rather, it will happen. Most certainly everything will have to get considerably worse than it is now before most people would actually consider doing something. But the good news is, it can't sustain itself like this for much longer. It has to collapse, I mean, our society or some of the things we have done so excessively. The system is inherently self limiting, and we are going to come up against that wall, and we're going to have to face it. But I think human beings can quickly learn to adapt and change, and they'll have to eventually find a way to live more harmoniously with nature.

When it comes down to the ultimate choice we have to face, survival trumps everything else. That;s why I think capitalism and consumerism will eventually decline. Not disappear, but become much less important.

[eyeball]

Any economic opportunity means that there are winners and losers. What can be done ? Well, MSN is helping people in emerging markets, I helped myself as best I could...

There are also cheaters and losers and far too many of both.

I would rather adapt than complain.

I'd rather string up the bastards that are facilitating the cheaters.

That's how human societies have always adapted in the past and you know how bloody precious tradition is when it comes to the ways we govern ourselves.

[Michael Hardner]

I did adapt though.

[Guest Manny]

I did adapt though.

Really? Did a metaphoric bullet enter your brain?

[Moonlight Graham]

Well it's too bad that you're supporting elitist attitudes. You're saying that these hardworking people from poor countries aren't rich enough for you to buy goods from. That is just a terrible attitude.

I never said that. I'm saying that since we're utilizing their labour we should treat them a little better.

No one is being exploited. The cost of living in these countries is much lower then it is here therefore the wages are lower. These people aren't being forced to work in the factories, they choose it willingly and happily. Most workers overseas are well treated, that's another myth that simply isn't true.

Stop punishing these hardworking people and stop trying to deny them a living because without the factories they would be in abject poverty instead of a growing and vibrant middle class that is emerging. Much as it did here in the west.

Rubbish. In terms of GDP-per-capita (PPP adjusted), China is still a significantly poor country. Their standard of living is much lower in large part because most of them are quite poor. The average manufacturing worker in China makes about 50 cents an hour, any way you slice it that's peanuts. What "vibrant middle class" are you talking about?

These jobs may be better than the alternative, but that's not saying much. And in no way did I say I wish to punish or stop doing business with these people.

BTW, by definition is it exploitation:

ex·ploi·ta·tion:

n.

2. Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes