Ontario NDP leading Polls

[madmax]

NDP 36% and the PCs 35%. Liberals are in third place at 22%.

Thats a statistical tie with the PCs even though its a one point lead.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/09/17/ndp-support-soars-while-liberals-plummets-poll#disqus_thread

Ironically the NDP in first in voter % would receive a 3rd place in terms of seats

according to forum research, being pipped by the Liberals.

IT would result in a PC minority government.

Interesting to say the least.

[punked]

Where is Newfoundlander to take this one poll (which I find suspect) and run with it declaring the Liberal party dead. Where are you/

[wyly]

NDP 36% and the PCs 35%. Liberals are in third place at 22%.

Thats a statistical tie with the PCs even though its a one point lead.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/09/17/ndp-support-soars-while-liberals-plummets-poll#disqus_thread

Ironically the NDP in first in voter % would receive a 3rd place in terms of seats

according to forum research, being pipped by the Liberals.

IT would result in a PC minority government.

Interesting to say the least.

if that were to translate into actual electoral results it would clearly demonstrate how ludicrous our FPTP system is...

[MiddleClassCentrist]

if that were to translate into actual electoral results it would clearly demonstrate how ludicrous our FPTP system is...

REFORM

Alternate Voting makes SENSE.

[Boges]

REFORM

Alternate Voting makes SENSE.

No it doesn't. In 2007 an alternate system was Proposed in the election and was soundly defeated. Proportional representation takes away geographical constituencies. It may work in small countries. Not in Canada

[MiddleClassCentrist]

No it doesn't. In 2007 an alternate system was Proposed in the election and was soundly defeated. Proportional representation takes away geographical constituencies. It may work in small countries. Not in Canada

MMP was on the ballot. People weren't properly informed about what the referendum was about. Most didn't understand it.

It does work. Run-off ballots is how parties elect their leaders.

AV is actually more sensible.

You rank your choices. So, I could vote green party, for instance. But, they likely won't win so then my second vote would get counted instead and Green Party eliminated from the running in my riding.

I'll just let this silly video explain.

Major parties do not necessarily benefit from it, and will not back or properly inform voters of the decision.

Edited September 18, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Boges]

I know the system. Toronto is thinking of deciding the mayor that way. To do that system we'd have to change our fused parliament. In our current system. The the election is decided by popular votes. I just in separate riding. I don't think there's much appetite to change the system.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Boges

[jacee]

No it doesn't. In 2007 an alternate system was Proposed in the election and was soundly defeated.

The public education program for proportionate representation was sabotaged.

Politicians want to keep FPTP because they've learned how to manipulate it to get maximum seats with minimum votes. Targeting votes is easy now with computer precision, and results in distortions of voter intentions.

39% of the vote is not a 'majority'.

Not only can it work in Canada, it is now a necessity.

Edited September 18, 2012 by jacee

[Boges]

The public education program for proportionate representation was sabotaged.

Politicians want to keep FPTP because they've learned how to manipulate it to get maximum seats with minimum votes. Targeting votes is easy now with computer precision, and results in distortions of voter intentions.

39% of the vote is not a 'majority'.

Not only can it work in Canada, it is now a necessity.

That's funny when democracy doesn't go your way, you just call the electorate stupid.

It was a stupid system, that's why it was defeated.

The purpose of the FPTP system is to get a broader representation of in the legislator. The Liberals can't get elected simply because 90% of the people in 3 urban centres vote for them. Damned the rest of the country.

Each riding is fought with a fair popular-vote decided election.

Want a perfect proportional system? Only have a legislator with 10 or 20 seats. Each seat is dictated by a certain percentage of the vote. Of course that removes anyone having a local representative. Meaning few local issues will be discussed.

[Wild Bill]

MMP was on the ballot. People weren't properly informed about what the referendum was about. Most didn't understand it.

It does work. Run-off ballots is how parties elect their leaders.

My perception was that most citizens DID understand it! We just didn't like it!

I despised it from the start. Remember, we were offered one specific option. No one offered us a chance to mull the idea over and choose what we thought was best from several different models.

No, we were given something dreamed up by a group of academics with only a pretense of wide spread public input. It was an approach dreamed up by a cabal of elites.

So our choice was only to support a new system where extra MPPs could gain office from the results of the popular vote. However, THE POLITICIANS THEMSELVES WOULD CHOOSE THESE NEW MPPS!

That's right! Politicians could gain office with never having been voted in by constituents in any specific riding. Parties made their own lists and would have been free to impose an extra MPP from Toronto onto the good citizens of Kapuskasing or Hearst. No doubt he or she would have been intimately familiar with the needs and wants of those people.

It would have been the first step on a slippery slope - politicians choosing more politicians without a popular vote. Plus, it would have destroyed the idea of regional representation. Very quickly, larger population centres like Toronto would have become the de facto rulers of the entire province.

Not that they don't get their way anyway...

It was a very poorly thought out scheme that was placed on that Ontario ballot. It vividly showed us just how far out of touch with ordinary mainstream citizens were the academics who dreamed it up. They actually hurt their cause, for now their flawed original scheme has become embedded in the consciousness of ordinary voters, leaving a bad taste in their mouth. If and when they come up with another scheme they will have a lot of bad feeling to overcome.

There are certain truisms of what citizens expect in our democracy.

They expect that any MP or MPP must be elected by the people, not named from a party list.

They expect that any MP or MPP must represent citizens in their specific geographic area.

They expect any MP or MPP must win a majority of the votes in that specific geographic area.

Any scheme that does not hold to those truisms will never win popular support. It will only be perceived as a plan to give perpetual losers who cannot win enough popular support more and unearned power.

That being said, I would not be at all surprised if supporters of proportional representation found some back door, undemocratic, way of sneaking change in without having to win a popular vote.

Despite their claims, I've never seen much REAL populism in anything they have proposed so far!

[PIK]

She deserves to do well , whodat has done nothing.

[Boges]

Any scheme that does not hold to those truisms will never win popular support. It will only be perceived as a plan to give perpetual losers who cannot win enough popular support more and unearned power.

That being said, I would not be at all surprised if supporters of proportional representation found some back door, undemocratic, way of sneaking change in without having to win a popular vote.

That's why the other system MCC proposed is kind of stupid too. Ranking the support for each candidate gets you Stephan Dion winning the Liberal leadership.

You get people who's only the first choice of very few of the electorate winning because they're the 2nd or 3rd choice of the most people.

Losers end up winning.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Boges

[Boges]

if that were to translate into actual electoral results it would clearly demonstrate how ludicrous our FPTP system is...

Sort of like how the Liberals came one seat from a majority even though they only beat the PCs by 2 percentage points in the popular vote?

FPTP's flaws works both ways.

These poll results show that the NDP don't have a broad support amongst the province. They may just be wildly popular in certain parts of the province. (cough Hamilton, Windsor, Northern Ontario and Downtown Toronto)

Edited September 18, 2012 by Boges

[Wild Bill]

That's why the other system MCC proposed is kind of stupid too. Ranking the support for each candidate gets you Stephan Dion winning the Liberal leadership.

You get people who's only the first choice of very few of the electorate winning because they're the 2nd or 3rd choice of the most people.

Losers end up winning.

The quote you assigned to me is puzzling, Boges. I don't recall saying those words but if you like, since today is Sept 18 when I've had my morning coffee I can repeat them for you!

[Boges]

The quote you assigned to me is puzzling, Boges. I don't recall saying those words but if you like, since today is Sept 18 when I've had my morning coffee I can repeat them for you!

Most definitely! it was quoting what I said below. It was a technical problem. I meant to quote your post about losers winning.

The error has been fixed. I apologize for any inconvenience this error may have caused.

[Newfoundlander]

Where is Newfoundlander to take this one poll (which I find suspect) and run with it declaring the Liberal party dead. Where are you/

Just like the Liberal Party in Quebec which Forum said was dead, or the PC Party in Alberta. Don't be such an idiot all the time.

[Smallc]

He can't help it. He has NDP blinders on.

[Newfoundlander]

Ontario needs another Mike Harris to put things back in order.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

My perception was that most citizens DID understand it! We just didn't like it!

I despised it from the start. Remember, we were offered one specific option. No one offered us a chance to mull the idea over and choose what we thought was best from several different models.

The referendum should have been more like

Should Ontario

1) Maintain our electoral system of First Past the Post

2) Investigate and apply a new electoral system

My words aren't very good for it. But, something simlar. SHould we change it? I'd vote yes. Our current system gives those in power long runs to rape and pillage our laws without actually having majority support.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Ontario needs another Mike Harris to put things back in order.

We need anyone who will sensibly use a combination of cuts and tax increases to get rid of the deficit...

[Boges]

Our current system gives those in power long runs to rape and pillage our laws without actually having majority support.

Without a 2 party system, receiving a majority is very difficult. We haven't seen a legit federal majority federally since Mulroney.

At least with FPTP you know in order to get a majority you need a broad support across the country or province.

The NDP can't win an election by winning a vast majority of Quebec while having limited support elsewhere.

[Michael Hardner]

[quote name='MiddleClassCentrist' date='18 September 2012 - 01:34 PM' timestamp='1347989682' Our current system gives those in power long runs to rape and pillage our laws without actually having majority support.

The other side of the coin is 'stability'... those who win majorities have enough time to put in real change. Is it too much power ? I'd say look at the results of the system - we have an even balance of power between the ruling elite and the people, relative to other nations of the world.

[punked]

He can't help it. He has NDP blinders on.

I said this poll was suspect. I really do not believe this is where the NDP sit right now and it would crazy for an NDP supporter to grab this poll and start declaring they will be the next government of Ontario. This is not how you win an election

[madmax]

New Poll

PCs = 37

NDP - 35

Lib - 20

The Forum Research interactive voice survey of 851 Ontarians on Monday shows the Liberals have fallen to 20 per cent support — well behind Progressive Conservatives at 37 per cent and New Democrats at 35 per cent.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1262810--ontario-liberals-support-slumps-poll-finds

[Newfoundlander]

I'm actually thinking it'd be great to see the NDP win in Ontario. The last time they governed the province hatred for them destroyed the federal party, and once they were defeated they were replaced with a strong conservative government that reformed Ontario.