Ontario Teachers Strike

[madmax]

Any way you look at it, it's a pretty sweet deal to make 45k-90k for 9 months of work.

I think its a good gig yes, even for 10months work...

Lots of jobs are good gigs, this is one of them.

[jacee]

I think its a good gig yes, even for 10months work...

Lots of jobs are good gigs, this is one of them.

Ever been in a room with 25 13 year olds for 6 hours a day for 10 months? Then do it again and again for 30 years ... then tell me it's an easy gig!

I have a feeling most of us would prefer the coal mines.

[socialist]

Ever been in a room with 25 13 year olds for 6 hours a day for 10 months? Then do it again and again for 30 years ... then tell me it's an easy gig!

I have a feeling most of us would prefer the coal mines.

Great points, but the ignorant will never understand.

[gunrutz]

Great points, but the ignorant will never understand.

Im so pleased that my children will be out of the school system before possibly being subjected to your 'wisdom'. There are all types of jobs out there, one for any sort of individual, that doesn't change the fact that most people don't have the luxury of the relatively high pay, excellent benefits, and summers off. Many people work harder than teachers while getting paid less, teachers are not that special, any almost average person could teach any high school subject, it is far from rocket science. The responsibilities teachers have pale to those in many other professions, do nurses get all holidays, a 8 to 4 schedule and summers off? Don't think so. Over paid and under worked. Now i could be more reasonable about it, it is an important job, like many others are, but some in the profession obviously couldn't care less about reality, or the welfare of the kids who miss school when there is a strike, so why should we care about them? Cut their pay, starve em out.

[jacee]

Im so pleased that my children will be out of the school system before possibly being subjected to your 'wisdom'. There are all types of jobs out there, one for any sort of individual, that doesn't change the fact that most people don't have the luxury of the relatively high pay, excellent benefits, and summers off. Many people work harder than teachers while getting paid less, teachers are not that special, any almost average person could teach any high school subject, it is far from rocket science. The responsibilities teachers have pale to those in many other professions, do nurses get all holidays, a 8 to 4 schedule and summers off? Don't think so. Over paid and under worked. Now i could be more reasonable about it, it is an important job, like many others are, but some in the profession obviously couldn't care less about reality, or the welfare of the kids who miss school when there is a strike, so why should we care about them? Cut their pay, starve em out.

So I guess you'll be volunteering to protect the welfare of the kids missing school, in the event of a lockout/strike?

[madmax]

Ever been in a room with 25 13 year olds for 6 hours a day for 10 months? Then do it again and again for 30 years ... then tell me it's an easy gig!

I have a feeling most of us would prefer the coal mines.

Its a good gig.. Its solid pay. If you don't like teaching then by all means go to the coal mines.

My relatives did that but in reverse... Nickle mines to teaching.

However my east coast friends perished at Westray mines are are still buried under the ground since early 1990s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westray_Mine

Yes, dare you compare clean air and safe working conditions with that of a mine, however I know you didn't mean it literally you were trying to make a joke.

No matter how stressful or difficult, monotonous or boring it may be teaching...

Work at Toyota starts at $21 and try that for 30 years....

Work at Tim Hortons starts at the lower minimun wage, try that for 30 years.

Then come back and talk to me.

Its a good gig, My brother loves teaching, and I don't envy him.

Edited August 30, 2012 by madmax

[jacee]

Its a good gig.. Its solid pay. If you don't like teaching then by all means go to the coal mines.

My relatives did that but in reverse... Nickle mines to teaching.

However my east coast friends perished at Westray mines are are still buried under the ground since early 1990s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westray_Mine

Yes, dare you compare clean air and safe working conditions with that of a mine, however I know you didn't mean it literally you were trying to make a joke.

No matter how stressful or difficult, monotonous or boring it may be teaching...

Work at Toyota starts at $21 and try that for 30 years....

Work at Tim Hortons starts at the lower minimun wage, try that for 30 years.

Then come back and talk to me.

Its a good gig, My brother loves teaching, and I don't envy him.

It's a good gig for those who have the gift for it. However most who complain that teachers have it 'easy' wouldn't last a day. It's not for the 'faint of heart'.

[Boges]

It's a good gig for those who have the gift for it. However most who complain that teachers have it 'easy' wouldn't last a day. It's not for the 'faint of heart'.

So does that mean they have a constitutional right to bank up to 20 sick days a year?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

So does that mean they have a constitutional right to bank up to 20 sick days a year?

The have a constitutional right to bargain their concessions.

You sound like Laurel Broten, BTW.

"You don't get a raise for sitting at home all summer" - Laurel

Edited August 30, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Boges]

The have a constitutional right to bargain their concessions.

You sound like Laurel Broten, BTW.

"You don't get a raise for sitting at home all summer" - Laurel

Since you say everything I've learned from the media is wrong please enlighten me about this.

I've read that come Saturday if a deal isn't in place the last contract renews itself and automatic 5.5% raises are given.

McGuinty still wouldn't say when the legislation would be introduced, but hinted the legislature will be recalled the week of Aug. 26 to impose a two-year contract if teachers still haven't signed new deals with school boards.

"I expect that the house leader will have an announcement next week with respect to when the house might resume," he said.

The government hopes it won't have to introduce the legislation, but can't allow the old teachers' contracts to roll over and automatically give raises of about 5.5 per cent, added McGuinty.

"They've all had reasonable, responsible pay hikes during the course of the last nine years," he said.

"I'm confident that among most teachers they see us as being balanced and thoughtful and responsible and fair-minded."

Read more: http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/teachers-contract-bill-won-t-be-confidence-motion-mcguinty-1.918301#ixzz252daLXTq

Is this true? If it is then this legislation would be required because there would be no incentive to make a deal prior to September first otherwise.

It's not like this deadline was sprung on the unions. They've known for awhile this was the Government's stance.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Boges

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Since you say everything I've learned from the media is wrong please enlighten me about this.

I've read that come Saturday if a deal isn't in place the last contract renews itself and automatic 5.5% raises are given.

Is this true? If it is then this legislation would be required because there would be no incentive to make a deal prior to September first otherwise.

It's not like this deadline was sprung on the unions. They've known for awhile this was the Government's stance.

It's anywhere from 3.9%-5.5% raise to the under 40% of teachers who are not at the top of the grid. Only a brand new teacher at the bottom would get a 5.5% increase (Note the clear misinformation by the minister). No grid increases to over 60% of the teaching workforce. The Catholic agreement still lets those young 40% of teachers to climb the grid, albeit pushed back by half a year and requires 3 unpaid days... which could be any of the 6 during the entire year. There is no need for legislation since the legislation is the Catholic deal that INCLUDES 75% of those increases anyway. If he really wants to save that money, lock em out.

Keep in mind, the purpose of the grid is already to make teachers cost less. Teachers mostly have 12 year grids and start well below police officers, nurses, fire fighters. Teachers start at 48 or 52k depending on qualifications and end at 80-94k depending on qualifications. Registered Nurses start at 58k, have an 8 year grid up to 81k and can make well over 100k with overtime.

This bill does not just target teachers. It targets people who are making less than 35k/year as an educational assistant toileting kids who can't go to the bathroom themselves. It targets any worker in the education sector in a union... not just Teachers.

Contracts are much more complex than simple wages and benefits. And these concessions have impacts on other areas where teachers still need to discuss further with the school board. For example, How is bereavement, paternity, and family illness going into 10 sick days, something that other professionals get additional days above their sick days for... for example.

It's not just the unions. It's the School boards. Even the Catholic System that AGREED to the MoU only has 3 boards signed on. 3/72. total school boards. 4% of all boards.

I don't believe there has EVER been a deal signed before the old one ended in the education system, and it's rare to happen in other industries as well.

Teachers are agreeing to concessions, make no mistake about it. They don't want their right to bargain a slightly alternative deal with the similar savings taken away. They don't like the government ignoring proposals to include a 2 year wage freeze (How often does a union even try to negotiate a wage freeze, Secondary Teachers did.)

Edited August 30, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[TheNewTeddy]

Part of the problem is that wages have been the bulk of the increase in cost of governments in the entire developed world.

While I do not have a problem with a private union going on strike, the fact is that government unions have a monopoly. There is nowhere else you can find free education, you can't just go to another school, they are all on strike. The same is true, for example, for public transit.

For this reason, I do not support ANY public sector union, and especially, ANY public sector strike.

[Zeus]

Well as far as I am concern the government is doing a good thing here. I know I few teachers and trust me they don't really work hard. To all the teachers go cry somewhere else. If you can manage with 80k + a year well you should see a financial advisor For once I agree with what the government is doing

[Boges]

I heard on the radio last night that some members are thinking of doing "Work to Rule"

So much for putting the students first.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I heard on the radio last night that some members are thinking of doing "Work to Rule"

So much for putting the students first.

Fair is fair. Let's be reasonable here, coaching is not part of the job and clubs are not part of the job.

Teachers are allowed to stop doing voluntary tasks when they feel unappreciated and attacked.

Teaching is a full time job on its own. No one demands that everyone else coach teams when they get home from work...

Note: The unions haven't mandated any job action. They have said that teachers may make a choice to reduce their involvement because they are feeling attacked by the public and may feel under appreciated for what they really do . And rightly so seeing the rhetoric of how little teachers do spewed on this thread over and over.

Edited August 31, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Boges]

Fair is fair. Let's be reasonable here, coaching is not part of the job and clubs are not part of the job.

Teachers are allowed to stop doing voluntary tasks when they feel unappreciated and attacked.

Teaching is a full time job on its own. No one demands that everyone else coach teams when they get home from work...

Note: The unions haven't mandated any job action. They have said that teachers may make a choice to reduce their involvement because they are feeling attacked by the public and may feel under appreciated for what they really do . And rightly so seeing the rhetoric of how little teachers do spewed on this thread over and over.

Sure, it's their right and coaching is voluntary.

Just sayin' that the rhetoric of putting the students first should fall on deaf ears when teachers don't allow them to partake in extra-curricular activities they may love.

[westguy]

Great points, but the ignorant will never understand.

this "ignorant understands that teacher's work for 9 months each year, are entitled to generous benefits, and almost impossible to fire however incompetent

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Sure, it's their right and coaching is voluntary.

Just sayin' that the rhetoric of putting the students first should fall on deaf ears when teachers don't allow them to partake in extra-curricular activities they may love.

That's usually a bunch of BS. Most of the students who make the teams, play on the same teams outside of school. That's why they make the teams, they have a considerable amount of practice over others.

Are you going to head down to your local school and ask what programs you can offer or are you just going to be a hypocrite and expect teachers to run them for free?

[Boges]

That's usually a bunch of BS. Most of the students who make the teams, play on the same teams outside of school. That's why they make the teams, they have a considerable amount of practice over others.

Are you going to head down to your local school and ask what programs you can offer or are you just going to be a hypocrite and expect teachers to run them for free?

Football at the high school level isn't widely offered outside of school programs as far as I know, nor is rugby.

With Tennis, Baseball and Hockey you have a point. School sports is good for students in low-income areas for kids who's parents can't afford rep or house leagues.

What about the Glee Club?

Again it's the teacher's right but I doubt job actions like that will garner public support.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Boges

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Football at the high school level isn't widely offered outside of school programs as far as I know, nor is rugby.

With Tennis, Baseball and Hockey you have a point. School sports is good for students in low-income areas for kids who's parents can't afford rep or house leagues.

What about the Glee Club?

Again it's the teacher's right but I doubt job actions like that will garner public support.

The government could subsidize them instead of expecting people to run them out of the good of their hearts.

Why is this expected of teachers and not the general public? I'd welcome anyone to run a program at a local school... Could offer way more if everyone was expected to create the extra curricular experience.

[jacee]

Gunrutz said:

Many people work harder than teachers while getting paid less, teachers are not that special, any almost average person could teach any high school subject, it is far from rocket science.

Anyone who thinks the subject matter is the key issue in teaching/good teaching doesn't understand much about teaching or kids.

The people who are the biggest critics of teachers usually are the ones with the least involvment and knowledge of the subject.

[TheNewTeddy]

Why hate teachers because other people work harder? There are millions of jobs in this country alone where people who work hard are paid far far less than people who do not work hard. Why single out Teachers for this?

Frankly, Teachers are hated due to their own pure stupid idiocy, they have no bothered trying to win anyone over. They just sit around and circle jerk with their friends about how great they are and how anyone who disagrees with them is oh so wrong and therefore do not need to be paid attention to.

The Teachers Union is Ontario's answer to the Tea Party. It might not be right-wing, but it is blind, pig headed, stubborn, unwilling to listen to the public, unwilling to convince the public they are right, willing to attack, willing to dismiss, and very very willing to get public attention without putting in any effort to win over all their new viewers.

Edit

Put me in charge of Teachers Unions and you'll get a victory in 2 weeks, tops.

Edited September 2, 2012 by TheNewTeddy

[gunrutz]

Gunrutz said:

Anyone who thinks the subject matter is the key issue in teaching/good teaching doesn't understand much about teaching or kids.

The people who are the biggest critics of teachers usually are the ones with the least involvment and knowledge of the subject.

Well lets see, i have been taught, i did my time in university, and as part of my job i sometimes teach people to do a job one on one for months at a time, a job more difficult and demanding than any teachers job, one that will result in peoples deaths if not done properly. So while im not a teacher i have enough experience to understand that most of what they do I could do right now, without any training, i have had enough incompetent ones to know that, im sure they were getting paid and I promise you I could do at least as well as they did. In fact i have no doubt that i could do better, you may feel differently about your abilities and that's fine, but from my point of view teachers aren't special, it requires a basic education and basic teaching specific training. Having the right aptitude for the job is in my opinion much more important than the schooling, unfortunately it seems many teachers teach because of the pay scale rather than their enjoyment of teaching, like most people they just want a decent job, they aren't special, it isn't a calling.

[cybercoma]

Well lets see, i have been taught, i did my time in university, and as part of my job i sometimes teach people to do a job one on one for months at a time, a job more difficult and demanding than any teachers job, one that will result in peoples deaths if not done properly. So while im not a teacher i have enough experience to understand that most of what they do I could do right now, without any training...

You don't know anything. Your experiences "teaching" involve on-the-job training and it's probably one-on-one or a small group of people. Yet you seem to think that you would be able to step into a high school and teach 100 or more adolescents, who are going through a time in their life where everything is a crisis. Moreover you have some kids who really excel, while others couldn't give a f*** less if they were in class or do well and can't help but be disruptive.

Nah. You know nothing about teaching kids. You're just another blowhard that thinks his job is much harder and more important than everyone else's, so you're ready to pass judgement on things you don't know the first thing about. Do yourself a favour and keep your uneducated opinions about jobs you know nothing about to yourself.

[Wild Bill]

One thing sadly missing today are after school extra-curricular activities like high school dances. They seem to have died out in the late 70's, just about the time teachers stopped being professionals and instead became just union members. The idea of volunteerism and giving extra to the students was replaced with the notion of it being unpaid overtime.

Such dances were great social events - useful parts of adolescent development. My school held such dances regularly, featuring many groups that were major headliners later on, such as Rush and Max Webster/Kim Mitchell. Often bands made up of our fellow students got a moment of glory by being allowed to play a short set to introduce the main band. Some such kids were inspired themselves to become successful musicians later in their lives.

Our student council made so much money one year that at year's end we paid all expenses including buses to take the entire school for an all day picnic at a provincial park about an hour's drive away.

All gone with the horse and buggy, I guess. A victim of work to rule. Maybe it better fits a union perspective but to me, it seems a little bit drearier...

Edited September 3, 2012 by Wild Bill