Ivison: Kiss Supply Management Goodbye

[Wild Bill]

I think you are misunderstanding me. If I am wrong, please quote my erroneous statement.

Again, choose almost any basket of consumer products that have no import restrictions and no supply management. I will bet you that of these products there are several that are 30% cheaper in the US. Why?

Your premise was specifically stated that ending supply management would not reduce the price of such products in Canada. I pointed out that with those products that ARE under supply management the price WOULD go down, due to much cheaper imported product being allowed into the Canadian market.

That was the basket under discussion. The question about non-restricted product being cheaper in the USA is a different one. Volumes could be a factor.

We would also have to literally specify apples vs. oranges.

[eyeball]

We won't have wage competition for a long time.

Really? Employers where I live have been taking advantage of the reduced wages the government allows them to pay foreign labour for a few years now and in case you missed it the government has just announced even more wage reducing policies.

But wage competition is still only a portion of what I suggested is crippling our ability to compete. Are you suggesting we'll soon have reduced human right's, environmental protection and other labour standards besides wages to make our country and society a better place?

I guess it's better to give people hope that we can erect trade barriers and all will be fine.

No you don't really think that, you're just being facetious. In the meantime would it be to much too ask for some sort of project or public education program intended to firm up Canada's expectations for a further downward spiral in economic, environment and human right's standard for the next couple of decades? That would be the open thing for the government to do don't you think?

I think we can make our economy better and improve the level and quality of services we offer. Tell me if you have anything better to offer.

The end of secrecy as the government knows it. It's the only thing that can save it from itself. It'll probably be too late if we wait until it's finally pushed us over the edge of no return.

Edited June 25, 2012 by eyeball

[carepov]

Your premise was specifically stated that ending supply management would not reduce the price of such products in Canada. I pointed out that with those products that ARE under supply management the price WOULD go down, due to much cheaper imported product being allowed into the Canadian market.

That was the basket under discussion. The question about non-restricted product being cheaper in the USA is a different one. Volumes could be a factor.

We would also have to literally specify apples vs. oranges.

OK, perhaps you are right and dairy prices would go down... or maybe you are wrong because "volumes could be a factor". Or maybe transportation is a factor. Maybe distribution and retail wages and mark-ups are higher in Canada? All I am saying is that there are no guarantees - there are many products that are not supply managed and have no import restriction and they are STILL 30% more expensive in Canada. Why would dairy products be different?

[Wild Bill]

Why would dairy products be different?

Again, because we would import cheaper American dairy products!

And again, the reason things are more expensive in Canada is a different question.We have to specify which things we are talking about. We can compete with apples but not with oranges or bananas. \

With pineapples we are not even in the game!

Perhaps we should start a different thread.

[Michael Hardner]

Really? Employers where I live have been taking advantage of the reduced wages the government allows them to pay foreign labour for a few years now and in case you missed it the government has just announced even more wage reducing policies.

This is what I mean - our wages aren't competitive.

But wage competition is still only a portion of what I suggested is crippling our ability to compete. Are you suggesting we'll soon have reduced human right's, environmental protection and other labour standards besides wages to make our country and society a better place?

No.

The end of secrecy as the government knows it. It's the only thing that can save it from itself. It'll probably be too late if we wait until it's finally pushed us over the edge of no return.

It's not like what they've done to the economy is a big secret. They had an election over Free Trade and the traders won.

[Fletch 27]

I, Am very happy that my milk will be cheaper as will my staples. I'm verry glad that those more unfortunate tham I will pay less that 4.50(!!!!!!!!!!!!) For a fucking 2 liters of milk....

Those who appose this simply appose the Tories or Steve Harper. This is the best for Canada and its populace. Supply management has kept far too many people in the poor house.... Almost 5 dollars for milks?????

[carepov]

Again, because we would import cheaper American dairy products!

And again, the reason things are more expensive in Canada is a different question.We have to specify which things we are talking about. We can compete with apples but not with oranges or bananas. \

With pineapples we are not even in the game!

Perhaps we should start a different thread.

OK I get it, American Dairy products are cheaper and in theory we import them and save money, let's stop thinking there and end supply management and 99 % of us will be happy saving on our grocery bill.

But wait... what if grocery stores import cheaper dairy products tomorrow and sell at the same price as they do today? Could that happen?

How about the long term effects of ending supply-management?

[carepov]

I, Am very happy that my milk will be cheaper as will my staples. I'm verry glad that those more unfortunate tham I will pay less that 4.50(!!!!!!!!!!!!) For a fucking 2 liters of milk....

Those who appose this simply appose the Tories or Steve Harper. This is the best for Canada and its populace. Supply management has kept far too many people in the poor house.... Almost 5 dollars for milks?????

Hi Fletch 27,

Do you realize that the latest proposal to end supply-management is coming from Martha Hall Findlay and that the CPC is defending the status quo?

[Wild Bill]

OK I get it, American Dairy products are cheaper and in theory we import them and save money, let's stop thinking there and end supply management and 99 % of us will be happy saving on our grocery bill.

But wait... what if grocery stores import cheaper dairy products tomorrow and sell at the same price as they do today? Could that happen?

How about the long term effects of ending supply-management?

I guess you've not had a lot of business experience.

First of all, competition will drive prices between different stores down.

Second, if there was a monopoly agreement between all the grocery players (which is illegal and a golden opportunity for some MP to look like a hero by helping bust them) then people would just continue cross border shopping! The domestic stores would have no choice but to pass along the savings.

Here's a pertinent link:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/02/21/f-cross-border-shopping-numbers.html

"$4,924,000,000 — Amount Canadians spent in the U.S., third quarter of 2011 (up 8.5 per cent from the third quarter 2010)

$72 — Average spending per person per same-day trip by Canadian visitors to the U.S., 2009"

That's just about 5 BILLION DOLLARS!

What's more, StatsCan can only work with declared numbers. Care to guess how much more product is never declared?

Edited June 26, 2012 by Wild Bill

[mentalfloss]

First of all, competition will drive prices between different stores down.

Just because there is competition, it doesn't mean prices automatically go down.

Edited June 26, 2012 by mentalfloss

[carepov]

I guess you've not had a lot of business experience.

I have enough business experience to know there is far more uncertainty in the real world than what you and other posters are claiming.

First of all, competition will drive prices between different stores down.

Maybe and maybe not. Sometimes this happens and sometimes it doesn't.

Second, if there was a monopoly agreement between all the grocery players (which is illegal and a golden opportunity for some MP to look like a hero by helping bust them) then people would just continue cross border shopping! The domestic stores would have no choice but to pass along the savings.

Here's a pertinent link:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/02/21/f-cross-border-shopping-numbers.html

"$4,924,000,000 — Amount Canadians spent in the U.S., third quarter of 2011 (up 8.5 per cent from the third quarter 2010)

$72 — Average spending per person per same-day trip by Canadian visitors to the U.S., 2009"

That's just about 5 BILLION DOLLARS!

What's more, StatsCan can only work with declared numbers. Care to guess how much more product is never declared?

First, there is no such thing as a "monopoly agreement between players", perhaps you mean oligopoly.

Second, of the $5 Billion, how much would you guess is on supply-managed products like dairy? 5% maybe? 10% tops? OK what about the other 90-95%, why are these products cheaper in the US? To me, this reasoning suggests that there is a strong possiblity that, in the real world, ending supply-mangement will bring no significant savings for the Canadian consumer.

[mentalfloss]

To me, this reasoning suggests that there is a strong possiblity that, in the real world, ending supply-mangement will bring no significant savings for the Canadian consumer.

It also depends on the rate of consumption and how much this hits the average consumer's wallet.

No one is really clamouring to end supply management so that they can save a few bucks every week.

[GostHacked]

But wage competition is still only a portion of what I suggested is crippling our ability to compete. Are you suggesting we'll soon have reduced human right's, environmental protection and other labour standards besides wages to make our country and society a better place?

Well with the recent reduction in the Oceans and Fisheries department could indicate that environmental protection will be one thing that will get reduced.

The end of secrecy as the government knows it. It's the only thing that can save it from itself. It'll probably be too late if we wait until it's finally pushed us over the edge of no return.

It may already be too late.

Edited June 26, 2012 by GostHacked

[bleeding heart]

If health care & education aren't "broken" in Canada the sky isn't blue.

Sometims the sky is blue and sometimes it is not. So your own analogy answers your subsequent remarks rather well, if unintentionally.

[Jack Weber]

Just because there is competition, it doesn't mean prices automatically go down.

See retail gasoline...

[Jack Weber]

Hi Fletch 27,

Do you realize that the latest proposal to end supply-management is coming from Martha Hall Findlay and that the CPC is defending the status quo?

Mmmno...No he doesn't...