Ivison: Kiss Supply Management Goodbye

[Wild Bill]

Yes.

Your question: "Just HOW would we drop prices to consumers, Michael? We can't tell the farmers,wholesalers or grocery stores to just drop their profits or even sell at a loss!"

This is how: we simply allow imports. We do it as part of a deal in dropping other tariffs. I'm 100% convinced that Harper, an economist, wants to do this.

But Michael, that is precisely the point! We CAN'T "simply allow imports"! It's illegal! THAT'S WHAT THE SUPPLY MANAGEMENT MARKETING BOARDS ARE ALL ABOUT!

You keep suggesting that we can do one while ignoring the other! We can't! The marketing boards would have to be dismantled first and that would involve stupendous political issues, particularly in Quebec. If you think Quebec's reaction to Harper cutting some artists' grants was significant, you have no idea of what they would do if he allowed dairy imports from other countries to cheaply invade their province!

So to debate any solutions to the problem we HAVE to deal with the marketing board issue!

Or do you have a suggestion as to how our politicians can ignore the law?

[Tilter]

Are you suggesting we adopt their healthcare system, that it's better than ours?

No, just improving ours to a point where cancer victims don't have to wait 6 months for treatment while the cancer grows, or have a person wait 3 months for ah MRI to see what the problem is so it can be fixed in about 6 or 8 months if it's orthopaedic. In those ensuing months, 4 or 5 visits to the family doctor for pain pills & side issues like addiction & side effects.

If the governments were to fund chopping down the enormous backlog of patients, start fresh with NO backlog, our medical system would be world class with no additional cost to the funding government and cost less in the long run.

Yes--- the American medical/financial system is greedy & in many cases acts criminally to avoid payment of claims --- which costs the patients medical aid but--- because of the "sue everyone" attitude is working it's way into Canada so we can expect more delays in our health system because of it.

you end up with basically the same medical treatment as the Canadian system. Edited June 24, 2012 by Tilter

[Tilter]

Some items in the grocery store (as an example) is sold at a loss to get people in the store to buy other products that will make a profit. One particular group of item that you buy that the store sells at a loss, soft drinks. It costs more to bring Coke and Pepsi in than what it is sold for.

If retail sold Coke and Pepsi for more than what they pay for, you would not want to afford it anymore. It's crazy expensive as it is now. Prices have gone up, while you can buy a neutered 6 pack (6X250ML)for more than a 12 pack 10 years ago.

A can of cola actually costs about 3 cents plus the can. The "loss leaders" in pop sales are largely sponsored by the pop companies.

In the case of store brand--- if the cost is less that reflects on the large profits being made by the brand name producers.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Tilter

[Michael Hardner]

Why not a deal to raise other countries human right's, environmental protection, and labour standards to the same level of playing field we play at? I'm pretty much convinced Harper's lowering of our's is the wrong way to go.

That still wouldn't make us competitive, I'm afraid.

[Michael Hardner]

Some items in the grocery store (as an example) is sold at a loss to get people in the store to buy other products that will make a profit. One particular group of item that you buy that the store sells at a loss, soft drinks. It costs more to bring Coke and Pepsi in than what it is sold for.

If retail sold Coke and Pepsi for more than what they pay for, you would not want to afford it anymore. It's crazy expensive as it is now. Prices have gone up, while you can buy a neutered 6 pack (6X250ML)for more than a 12 pack 10 years ago.

You're talking about pricing strategies, which is different than high prices charged by a monopoly.

[Michael Hardner]

But Michael, that is precisely the point! We CAN'T "simply allow imports"! It's illegal! THAT'S WHAT THE SUPPLY MANAGEMENT MARKETING BOARDS ARE ALL ABOUT!

We can simply change the law.

You keep suggesting that we can do one while ignoring the other! We can't! The marketing boards would have to be dismantled first and that would involve stupendous political issues, particularly in Quebec.

Harper is in a position to do this, and as I said I'm sure he wants to.

If you think Quebec's reaction to Harper cutting some artists' grants was significant, you have no idea of what they would do if he allowed dairy imports from other countries to cheaply invade their province!

How many Conservatives did they elect again ?

Or do you have a suggestion as to how our politicians can ignore the law?

Politicians = makers of policy = law makers

[Bryan]

Whether or not it adds anything to our economy (or truly affects the price of food), supply management should be gotten rid of anyway. A marketing board that's optional? Sure. But to set it up so that producers are not ALLOWED to sell outside of that board? I'm in constant disbelief that this level of communism was ever allowed to exist in the first place.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Bryan

[GostHacked]

You're talking about pricing strategies, which is different than high prices charged by a monopoly.

Much of the grocery business IS a monopoly. Vendors have a monopoly on certain things. Cargill for example has a monopoly on meat distrobution to all of Canada's major grocery chains. You can buy your meat at Loblaw, Metro, Sobey's .. and even Walmart. No matter where it is sold, the meat comes from one place.

Most store brands are made by one or two companies as well. When you take away the retail side (which is not a monopoly at the moment, but has heavy competition between the two or three that exist in Canada)

Your three major entities in Canada are Loblaw, Metro, and Sobey's. Well four if you include the once great A&P (now reduced to Food Basics).

Farmland is being bought up by a handfull of corporations. Turning the argicultural business into a corporate money making monopoly.

Business have to go big in order to make profit these days. Small operations that want to start up in this field will have a very very hard time making it. Things will be geared against them.

Let's see how many chains have closed in the last 20 years compared to how many have opened in the last 20 years. And of those who have opened, how many are left?

Edited June 25, 2012 by GostHacked

[mentalfloss]

Whether or not it adds anything to our economy (or truly affects the price of food), supply management should be gotten rid of anyway. A marketing board that's optional? Sure. But to set it up so that producers are not ALLOWED to sell outside of that board? I'm in constant disbelief that this level of communism was ever allowed to exist in the first place.

I wonder why Conservatives are so defiantly defending communism..

Edited June 25, 2012 by mentalfloss

[Michael Hardner]

Much of the grocery business IS a monopoly. Vendors have a monopoly on certain things. Cargill for example has a monopoly on meat distrobution to all of Canada's major grocery chains. You can buy your meat at Loblaw, Metro, Sobey's .. and even Walmart. No matter where it is sold, the meat comes from one place.

Most store brands are made by one or two companies as well. When you take away the retail side (which is not a monopoly at the moment, but has heavy competition between the two or three that exist in Canada)

Your three major entities in Canada are Loblaw, Metro, and Sobey's. Well four if you include the once great A&P (now reduced to Food Basics).

Farmland is being bought up by a handfull of corporations. Turning the argicultural business into a corporate money making monopoly.

Business have to go big in order to make profit these days. Small operations that want to start up in this field will have a very very hard time making it. Things will be geared against them.

Let's see how many chains have closed in the last 20 years compared to how many have opened in the last 20 years. And of those who have opened, how many are left?

Still, you were talking about pricing strategies. Now you're talking about monopolies.

Do you agree that increased competition is a good idea ?

[Wild Bill]

We can simply change the law.

Harper is in a position to do this, and as I said I'm sure he wants to.

How many Conservatives did they elect again ?

Politicians = makers of policy = law makers

Actually, Michael, I would like to see him do it too! I just want to point out that it is not as simple as some portray it.

I suspect that federal governments have wanted to dismantle supply management boards for a long time but were afraid to take the issue on. Such practices have tied their hands with international trade agreements and also have ticked off far more voters than it has attracted, since it is the voters who have to pay the higher prices and we all know there are far fewer farmers today than long ago.

However, Quebec is the exception. True, Harper is in a position where Quebec gives him nothing so why should he try to curry Quebecois favour? Well, if he cares about the PQ rising from the dead the next Quebec provincial election he rather has to care.

That is why he is consulting with not just Mulroney but also Chretien, two gentlemen that he has NEVER considered friends! He needs their experience with Quebec - experience which cannot be denied.

Me, I would adopt YOUR suggestions! Harper doesn't need Quebec and although I would prefer a united country, I have never desired it at the price Quebec has often demanded. When Quebec costs TROC more than she contributes then its time to let her go her own way!

I've always been a great believer in letting people feel the consequences of their actions. It's the only way many people seem to learn, especially when we are talking large groups. In many ways today's society has sheltered too many people from winning Darwin Awards, where their mistakes tend to weed out the culls and improve the species.

More simply, if someone is so damn sure their idea will work then I say prove it! Let it happen!

That includes the people of Quebec. If they democratically choose to separate then that is their right. What is NOT their right is for them to determine the terms of separation! I think they would be very surprised at the attitude of any federal government towards separation negotiations. TROC would be angry and bitter. It would be political suicide for any government to appear to be too soft in such an agreement with Quebec, EVEN IF THE TERMS ACTUALLY WERE FAIR! Divorces are virtually always more emotional than rational.

More important, if Quebec were to leave it would have no seats to ever again offer a TROC party. So who in Ottawa would give a damn about them? They would be concerned with winning votes in TROC.

So I agree with you that Harper could simply change the laws! It would sent the NDP screaming yellow zonkers, of course. Their support is overwhelmingly from Quebec! Still, with a majority government he can pretty well do whatever he wants. Screams from Quebec would likely only win him more votes in the rest of the country.

Yet much as I would like to see it happen, I just don't think it will. Harper DOES seem to want to keep the country together! He sees Canada as a confederation of equal provinces, unlike other parties like the Liberals who always seemed to see it as some kind of republican/constitutional monarchy hybrid, where Ottawa was supreme. He might believe that Quebec has been treated in a favoured fashion (which it has!) and want to make some adjustments but still, all in all he would like to see us stay together.

The price of dismantling marketing boards would be a resurgence of separatiste parties and feelings in Quebec. I don't believe he will pay that price.

Dammit!

[Michael Hardner]

Thanks for explaining your position WB.

[Michael Hardner]

To add: This will be a fascinating test of Harper's political skills, wherever they may be at this point in time.

[GostHacked]

Still, you were talking about pricing strategies. Now you're talking about monopolies.

Do you agree that increased competition is a good idea ?

Yeah I kind of got the concept mixed up. But I asked a couple pages back if protectionism was the cause of these businesses not profiting like they should. No answer. I'll admit I am still a little confused, but that will clear up.....

I agree competition is good. However the way things are, there really is little to no competition out there for the grocery market. But again, if you were to try and open a new chain, you are dealing with the same suppliers as all the other chains. You are not offering anything different except a store concept and possibly price (and there is little difference there as well).

[PIK]

I think harper is trying hard to bring everyone together , even his policies that are more to helping out our own ,instead of the way it was before ,helping out the rest of the world (good photo ops). We have native problems,and alot of poor folks, there is so much to do within our own country, so sending billions to the rich euro bankers , no matter how pissed mulcair is ,is not a great idea.

[carepov]

Supply-managed dairy products are 30% more expensive in Canada compared to the US.

Non-supply-managed food products are also 30 % more expensive in Canada compared to the US.

Therefore it is reasonable to assume that eliminating supply management will have no significant impact on the consumer price for dairy products.

Please let me know if I am missing something.

[Wild Bill]

Supply-managed dairy products are 30% more expensive in Canada compared to the US.

Non-supply-managed food products are also 30 % more expensive in Canada compared to the US.

Therefore it is reasonable to assume that eliminating supply management will have no significant impact on the consumer price for dairy products.

Please let me know if I am missing something.

I don't know if you are right or wrong but I do know it would stop zillions of dollars lost to cross-border shopping.

[eyeball]

That still wouldn't make us competitive, I'm afraid.

So you think lowering our standards is the only practical thing we can do to make us competitive?

I have to say it's a little discouraging to think you're what passes for a lefty these days.

[Michael Hardner]

So you think lowering our standards is the only practical thing we can do to make us competitive?

We won't have wage competition for a long time.

I have to say it's a little discouraging to think you're what passes for a lefty these days.

I guess it's better to give people hope that we can erect trade barriers and all will be fine. I think we can make our economy better and improve the level and quality of services we offer. Tell me if you have anything better to offer.

[carepov]

I don't know if you are right or wrong but I do know it would stop zillions of dollars lost to cross-border shopping.

How do you figure?

[Wild Bill]

How do you figure?

People cross border shop to save money. If prices in Canada were the same as in New York, why would they cross the border?

Dairy products coming in from the USA would drive prices down to the same level.

I think what you missed is importation.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Wild Bill

[carepov]

People cross border shop to save money. If prices in Canada were the same as in New York, why would they cross the border?

Dairy products coming in from the USA would drive prices down to the same level.

I think what you missed is importation.

I agree, if products in Canada cost the same as the US, we will reduce cross border shopping. However, I do not agree that ending supply management/allowing imports will lower dairy prices in Canada.

I may be wrong, but as far as I know we allow imports for beef, fruits, vegetables, turkeys, bread, canned gods, processed foods and we do not manage the supply. These items are still 30% cheaper in the US, why would dairy products be different?

[Michael Hardner]

These items are still 30% cheaper in the US, why would dairy products be different?

To answer that, we'd have to know why other items are more expensive here today.

[Wild Bill]

I agree, if products in Canada cost the same as the US, we will reduce cross border shopping. However, I do not agree that ending supply management/allowing imports will lower dairy prices in Canada.

I may be wrong, but as far as I know we allow imports for beef, fruits, vegetables, turkeys, bread, canned gods, processed foods and we do not manage the supply. These items are still 30% cheaper in the US, why would dairy products be different?

You are wrong! Dairy products are restricted imports. When is the last time you saw any American milk, ice cream or cheese in an Ontario supermarket?

The answer is you never have! About the only thing you might occasionally see is some novelties that are actually made from "edible oil products".

When is the last time you saw American chicken or turkey? Yes, there is lots of beef, fruits and others. That's because those products do NOT have marketing boards/supply management!

Nobody ever said that ALL grocery products are cheaper in America but dairy products are a large chunk of the Canadian typical shopping basket.

Next time you are in a supermarket in Ontario, look for yourself!

[carepov]

You are wrong! Dairy products are restricted imports. When is the last time you saw any American milk, ice cream or cheese in an Ontario supermarket?

The answer is you never have! About the only thing you might occasionally see is some novelties that are actually made from "edible oil products".

When is the last time you saw American chicken or turkey? Yes, there is lots of beef, fruits and others. That's because those products do NOT have marketing boards/supply management!

Nobody ever said that ALL grocery products are cheaper in America but dairy products are a large chunk of the Canadian typical shopping basket.

Next time you are in a supermarket in Ontario, look for yourself!

I think you are misunderstanding me. If I am wrong, please quote my erroneous statement.

Again, choose almost any basket of consumer products that have no import restrictions and no supply management. I will bet you that of these products there are several that are 30% cheaper in the US. Why?