Boges Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) I don't think anyone can defend this. But this is the primary reason why people hate Unions, they hold people hostage like the mob. http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1214758--toronto-schools-pay-high-prices-for-small-jobs?bn=1 Here’s what taxpayers were charged for work done at Toronto public schools:Installing a $17 pencil sharpener: $143 to put in four screws. The installation of a sign on a school’s front lawn: $19,000 An electrical outlet on the wall in a school library: $3,000 A “breakfast club” kitchen: $250,000 When the librarian at the electrical outlet school saw the bill she hit the roof, wondering at “the number of books that could have been purchased with $3000.” A Star investigation has found examples of charges that are out of whack with the amount of work done. The work in question was carried out by some of the 900-strong maintenance and construction trades people who have an exclusive contract with the Toronto District School Board. In the case of the electrical plug, the job took four hours, but taxpayers were billed 76 hours, which sources say was done to account for the time of idle workers who had no assignments that week. What makes the situation so serious is that Toronto public schools are facing a budget crunch so deep one trustee called it a “bloodbath.” Trustees must find $109 million in cuts, which may cut supports for special needs students, and close some classrooms and cafeterias. More: Toronto teachers stage protest to answer the public’s questions about education cuts Principals, trustees and parents say that much needed work on Toronto’s aging schools is not getting done. Principals were terrified of repercussions from their management and the union and would not go on the record for this story. Some who have complained say they have been threatened by the union with losing their jobs if they speak up. Union boss Jimmy Hazel, when first asked about these high costs two weeks ago, unleashed a stream of profanity at a Star reporter. “We don’t need to f------ prove anything to anybody about costs,” Hazel said. “A s---load more work was done to justify the cost of that plug job I can tell you.” So basically officials are afraid of punishment if they stand up to these thugs? The TDSB shouldn't get another cent from the province that isn't properly audited. They've lost their ability to cry poor to the public. They were closing cafeterias while this was happening. They want to sell off playgrounds and they're paying $3000 for simple electrical work. Edited June 21, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 So basically officials are afraid of punishment if they stand up to these thugs? The TDSB shouldn't get another cent from the province that isn't properly audited. They've lost their ability to cry poor to the public. They were closing cafeterias while this was happening. They want to sell off playgrounds and they're paying $3000 for simple electrical work. Boges, what's worse is that there was apparently no TEACHER who could simply have take a screwdriver and installed the pencil sharpener themselves! It's as if the people who are charged with imparting knowledge to the next generations have no practical skills themselves! I guess we need a 6 month accredited course to be able to screw! The converse being obvious - if you don't have such a certificate then you can't possibly already know how to screw! Yet it is also perfectly obvious that the folks working in this system are very adroit at screwing US! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I thought schools had an on site maintenance guy for that kind of thing?!!!?!?!? 250,000 could pay 5 people a nice salary for one year to do a much better job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Boges, what's worse is that there was apparently no TEACHER who could simply have take a screwdriver and installed the pencil sharpener themselves! Teachers are not ALLOWED to do this work, and yet they still do. Your willingness to lay blame before asking questions is noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I thought schools had an on site maintenance guy for that kind of thing?!!!?!?!? 250,000 could pay 5 people a nice salary for one year to do a much better job. TDSB maintenance staff are untouchable (really can't be reprimanded or fired) and unreachable (can't be found) in many cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Boges, what's worse is that there was apparently no TEACHER who could simply have take a screwdriver and installed the pencil sharpener themselves! I suspect had the union found out that someone did that they'd have filed a grievance for doing their job. That's what I hear working for a union is like. You have a set job and you are not supposed to do anymore than what your job description describes. It kills any form of ambition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Teachers are not ALLOWED to do this work, and yet they still do. Your willingness to lay blame before asking questions is noted. My blame is laid at the entire system, Michael. When teachers demand we call them professionals yet they have stood up in Skydome and sang Solidarity Forever with Buzz Hargrove, I see no reason why they should not share the blame! You are attacking my model and not my point! Is it your position that many if not most teachers would have been perfectly capable of installing the pencil sharpener, assuming it were allowed? Even more, that they WOULD have done so? I would think there would be indeed a great deal of discussion there... Edited June 21, 2012 by Wild Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 My blame is laid at the entire system, Michael. When teachers demand we call them professionals yet they have stood up in Skydome and sang Solidarity Forever with Buzz Hargrove, I see no reason why they should not share the blame! How are they to blame for this ? Here's your quote: "It's as if the people who are charged with imparting knowledge to the next generations have no practical skills themselves! " I explained why you are mistaken, can you not just admit you're wrong sometimes ? You are attacking my model and not my point! Is it your position that many if not most teachers would have been perfectly capable of installing the pencil sharpener, assuming it were allowed? Even more, that they WOULD have done so? I already pointed out that some DO this kind of work even though they could be REPRIMANDED. You're building up a straw man ("If this were allowed to make these fixes then teachers wouldn't do it - at least, I think - therefore this is teachers' fault") that is ridiculous only because you are afraid to admit you made a mistake, as far as I can see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) The pencil sharpener is only the most comical example given simply because anyone with two functioning hands can do that job. I wouldn't expect a teacher to know how to do electrical work. The question is why did it cost $3,000? According to the story the union billed 72 hours of work at $38/hour to do a simple job that took half a morning. That's fraud! Edited June 21, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 How are they to blame for this ? Here's your quote: "It's as if the people who are charged with imparting knowledge to the next generations have no practical skills themselves! " I explained why you are mistaken, can you not just admit you're wrong sometimes ? I already pointed out that some DO this kind of work even though they could be REPRIMANDED. You're building up a straw man ("If this were allowed to make these fixes then teachers wouldn't do it - at least, I think - therefore this is teachers' fault") that is ridiculous only because you are afraid to admit you made a mistake, as far as I can see. Okay! the teachers are blameless! You win! I was totally mistaken! All teachers, or at least the vast majority, would be perfectly capable of installing that pencil sharpener and certainly would have, if only they were allowed! Now, let's debate if they played any part with allowing this situation to develop? After all, they themselves are unionized and appear to practice militant union strategies. Are there enough capable maths and science teachers? How much emphasis do we see today on trades? What would happen if we grabbed 3 teachers at random and place them on "Canada's Worst HandyMan"? How would that compare to say, 50 years ago? Whoops, sorry! I already agreed with your premise, which means I must agree that they all would be excellent handymen, er...handypeople! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Okay! the teachers are blameless! You win! I was totally mistaken! All teachers, or at least the vast majority, would be perfectly capable of installing that pencil sharpener and certainly would have, if only they were allowed! Nothing like a sore loser, but anyway moving on... Now, let's debate if they played any part with allowing this situation to develop? After all, they themselves are unionized and appear to practice militant union strategies. Are there enough capable maths and science teachers? How much emphasis do we see today on trades? Kind of a mish mash. My response: 1) Auto workers are also unionized, are they to blame ? 2) Are there enough geography teachers too ? It's a different question and has nothing to do with the OP 3) Same for the trades question. What would happen if we grabbed 3 teachers at random and place them on "Canada's Worst HandyMan"? How would that compare to say, 50 years ago? Whoops, sorry! I already agreed with your premise, which means I must agree that they all would be excellent handymen, er...handypeople! ...and that's yet another side question that isn't relevant, but IS weird. How good are computer programmers today at farming versus 50 years ago ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 The pencil sharpener is only the most comical example given simply because anyone with two functioning hands can do that job. I wouldn't expect a teacher to know how to do electrical work. The question is why did it cost $3,000? According to the story the union billed 72 hours of work at $38/hour to do a simple job that took half a morning. That's fraud! You are damn right that is indeed fraud. I thought the government hated competition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 ...and that's yet another side question that isn't relevant, but IS weird. How good are computer programmers today at farming versus 50 years ago ? Something along his line occurred to me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Nothing like a sore loser, but anyway moving on... Kind of a mish mash. My response: 1) Auto workers are also unionized, are they to blame ? 2) Are there enough geography teachers too ? It's a different question and has nothing to do with the OP 3) Same for the trades question. ...and that's yet another side question that isn't relevant, but IS weird. How good are computer programmers today at farming versus 50 years ago ? Michael, I realize now that something I thought obvious was not to you. The context of my posts is that I don't believe that the majority of today's teachers are very practical. I had direct experience myself when my company brought the first personal computer invented into Canada and I had dealings and observations of the school system. I had thought that teachers would have been on the leading edge of the personal computer revolution. Instead I found that they were among the last to adopt the "new ways", with principals who could not even read their own email and had to have a secretary for such functions! In private industry, personal secretarys for managers had almost disappeared. I truly don't believe that very many teachers could have installed that pencil sharpener! I think that science and math teachers are relatively rare while English and French teachers are a dime a dozen. This may the origin of a related topic that has been getting some MSM play lately - that a new generation is being raised that cannot do some of the simplest things! They cannot change a tire! They cannot fix a leaky tap or replace a bad electrical outlet. They are NOT stupid, just ignorant! Big box stores like Loews and Home Depot are making a good profit selling to people who don''t know how to do these things but are perfectly capable of learning. They have in-store demonstration sessions, trained staff to answer questions and a multitude of do-it-yourself books. When this demographic puts their mind to it they prove perfectly capable of doing such practical tasks. So why don't they know it in the first place? MY generation did! Our teachers taught us! Even Arts & Science boys like me received a minimum amount of basic trade education, to make us more "well-rounded" and capable citizens. Franky, I think it is YOU who are sore about my premises, Michael. One would think you are a teacher, stung by embarrassing accusations! What is the ratio of male to female teachers in schools today, Michael? How much trade education is given? How easy is it to get an experienced mathematics teacher for a school? What is the ratio of male to female principals, after a few decades of affirmative action? Some might jump to the conclusion that I am implying some sort of female English teacher conspiracy that has hijacked the school system as an arm of the NDP, to brainwash students to a socialist point of view and put all the boys on Ritalin. Nothing would be further from the truth! However, I DO believe that things have gotten badly out of balance, so that one point of view has come to dominate, for lack of any other input. Don't believe I have a point? Ask someone in their early 20's if they can change a tire. We have great computer programmers and difficulty filling crews to make a sidewalk. We pay exorbitant fees to install a pencil sharpener. We have to pay a plumber to replace a 50 cent washer in a tap! No wonder the Chinese are out-competing us. They just sent 3 astronauts to their space station! They have one of their own! Someday we may move out into space but it sure looks like Captain Kirk will be Chinese! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Michael, I realize now that something I thought obvious was not to you. The context of my posts is that I don't believe that the majority of today's teachers are very practical. That's fine, but... 1 ) If you don't base your opinions on some kind of facts, and instead base it on a guess or (at worst) a bias you have about teachers then it's not a discussion and not interesting to other people. 2) This thread isn't about teachers. I had direct experience myself when my company brought the first personal computer invented into Canada and I had dealings and observations of the school system. I had thought that teachers would have been on the leading edge of the personal computer revolution. Instead I found that they were among the last to adopt the "new ways", with principals who could not even read their own email and had to have a secretary for such functions! In private industry, personal secretarys for managers had almost disappeared. I worked with mainframe programmers in the 1980s and found the same thing, and they were technologists. I truly don't believe that very many teachers could have installed that pencil sharpener! I think that science and math teachers are relatively rare while English and French teachers are a dime a dozen. This may the origin of a related topic that has been getting some MSM play lately - that a new generation is being raised that cannot do some of the simplest things! They cannot change a tire! They cannot fix a leaky tap or replace a bad electrical outlet. They are NOT stupid, just ignorant! Big box stores like Loews and Home Depot are making a good profit selling to people who don''t know how to do these things but are perfectly capable of learning. They have in-store demonstration sessions, trained staff to answer questions and a multitude of do-it-yourself books. When this demographic puts their mind to it they prove perfectly capable of doing such practical tasks. So why don't they know it in the first place? MY generation did! Our teachers taught us! Even Arts & Science boys like me received a minimum amount of basic trade education, to make us more "well-rounded" and capable citizens. They don't train people in that stuff today. Seems pretty obvious to me. Franky, I think it is YOU who are sore about my premises, Michael. One would think you are a teacher, stung by embarrassing accusations! I DO get sore when people make a blatant mistake and don't like to see it pointed out, you're correct. As to whether teachers are BAD or GOOD people -> who cares? You could talk about Global Warming on this thread too, but it would have nothing to do with the OP. Here's the thing, this thread gives you a perfect opportunity to trash a kind of union, but you're instead going off in your own direction. What is the ratio of male to female teachers in schools today, Michael? How much trade education is given? How easy is it to get an experienced mathematics teacher for a school? What is the ratio of male to female principals, after a few decades of affirmative action? Some might jump to the conclusion that I am implying some sort of female English teacher conspiracy that has hijacked the school system as an arm of the NDP, to brainwash students to a socialist point of view and put all the boys on Ritalin. Nothing would be further from the truth! However, I DO believe that things have gotten badly out of balance, so that one point of view has come to dominate, for lack of any other input. Don't believe I have a point? Ask someone in their early 20's if they can change a tire. Who cares about any of this ? I am posting on the topic. What you're writing nothing to do with the topic. Start a new thread if it interests you and you'll get some responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 They don't train people in that stuff today. Seems pretty obvious to me. Here's the thing, this thread gives you a perfect opportunity to trash a kind of union, but you're instead going off in your own direction. Who cares about any of this ? I am posting on the topic. What you're writing nothing to do with the topic. Start a new thread if it interests you and you'll get some responses. Perhaps they should train people in that stuff today. If a society lacks a common baseline of practicality and is predominately academic in outlook it is in serious trouble! However, I have to agree with you that I have drifted from the OP. Perhaps I shall take your advice and start a thread of my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I don't think anyone can defend this. But this is the primary reason why people hate Unions, they hold people hostage like the mob. I'm a unionized employee... I've been held hostage by management more than a few times... In fact,our contract is up on Sunday night and we are only going to see the first offer on Saturday afternoon because the company refused to negotiate early... You see,that moblike hostage holding goes both ways... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Perhaps they should train people in that stuff today. If a society lacks a common baseline of practicality and is predominately academic in outlook it is in serious trouble! However, I have to agree with you that I have drifted from the OP. Perhaps I shall take your advice and start a thread of my own. I think so. The idea about discussing education reform is intriguing to me, maybe I'll jump in too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 I'm a unionized employee... I've been held hostage by management more than a few times... In fact,our contract is up on Sunday night and we are only going to see the first offer on Saturday afternoon because the company refused to negotiate early... You see,that moblike hostage holding goes both ways... Well of course...anyone who wasn't completely blinded by ideology would understand this the instant they talked about "holding hostage." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 I think I'd like to see left of centre posters such as myself agree that this situation is an outrage, and that it understandably turns the public against organized labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) I have read the comments under the story. It seems like every conservative commenter is blaming that the "union" should be responsible for such things. Sometimes I wonder, the name of "Harper" or the name of "Union", which is the most hated one in Canada Is the "contractor" in the story an union worker or the union itself? LOL, it is obvious that the contractor is a company or the boss who hires workers. I doubt any company or boss would pay a worker $143 just for screwing 5 screws even if this worker is an union worker. Considering a carpentry company usually is a small business, it probably doesn't have any union at all. The question of mine is simple: who authorized the payment or who awarded the job to the contractor? Once the questions above answered, it will be no difficult to reach the guy who sucked the gravy from the jobs. Edited June 22, 2012 by xul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 I have read the comments under the story. It seems like every conservative commenter is blaming that the "union" should be responsible for such things. Sometimes I wonder, the name of "Harper" or the name of "Union", which is the most hated one in Canada Is the "contractor" in the story an union worker or the union itself? LOL, it is obvious that the contractor is a company or the boss who hires workers. I doubt any company or boss would pay a worker $143 just for screwing 5 screws even if this worker is an union worker. Considering a carpentry company usually is a small business, it probably doesn't have any union at all. The question of mine is simple: who authorized the payment or who awarded the job to the contractor? Once the questions above answered, it will be no difficult to reach the guy who sucked the gravy from the jobs. You really should have read the entire thread. The public union has an exclusive on ALL such work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 You gotta give the Star lots of credit here. This is why MSM investigative journalism is something that's of value to everyone and should be preserved. Had the Star not brought this to public light, perhaps nothing would have been done. More news about the issue came out today. http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1215444--toronto-school-board-workers-paid-for-loafing-on-the-job?bn=1 TDSB and trade union sources have now explained to the Star that school work orders are sometimes “padded” with additional hours to account for the whereabouts of workers who either had no assignments or took off during work hours. Critics say they do not understand why a tradesperson would have no assignments, given that the school board estimates it needs $3 billion of repairs and upgrades to bring the almost 600 schools up to a proper standard.On Thursday, hundreds of teachers, parents, school officials and even unionized workers who are part of the council contacted the Star to complain about waste of taxpayers’ money by the TDSB. Top TDSB officials, including director Chris Spence, school superintendents and deputy operations director Penny Mustin, have refused to be interviewed about the matter. The school board has also not released a copy of its internal tracking database that contains details of the annual 1.8 million hours of work the board’s electricians, carpenters, plumbers and other trades claim they perform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Left-of-centre posters - ask your teacher friends about their experience with trades inside the school. What I have heard has shocked me. Schools in a state of disrepair and administration that are unable to get anything done. I'm surprised it took the MSM this long to get to this. I hope the issue doesn't die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 It does sound bad, and worse than I would have guessed. As for the OP...well, I can't imagine trying to defend that nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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