It's not a protest, demonstration or strike, IT"S ANARCHY!

[g_bambino]

It sounds almost like a cliche, or like someone pretending to be a Socialist in order to discredit the whole philosophy.

That's along the same lines as what I first thought when I read his earliest posts; is he being ironic?

[g_bambino]

government has the responsibility to protect and provide for all its citizens.

Protect, perhaps. But, provide? Everything? Can you present a link to any government other than those of Cuba and North Korea making such a claim about itself, please?

[jacee]

Protect, perhaps. But, provide? Everything? Can you present a link to any government other than those of Cuba and North Korea making such a claim about itself, please?

Nobody said "everything" except you.

A few decades ago, this same argument, same talking points, were made in respect to making secondary school (high school) free for everyone.

At that time you could still get a good job without a high school diploma, though it was increasingly in demand.

Today you can still get a job without a postsecondary diploma/degree, but those qualifications are increasingly in demand and the jobs you get without them are not exactly careers you want to stick with.

I tried to help a young woman without a high school diploma get a job at a local burger stand. The manager just laughed and said "We have PhD students applying here." While that's a function of being in a university town, it's shocking nonetheless.

I think postsecondary education should be free too, since it is a requirement of most employers now.

It's already heavily subsidized, and not a huge step to full funding.

If we finally decided to extend full funding for secondary school for these students grandparents, it's now time to fully fund postsecondary education for this generation.

The money is there and it's our money and our decision how it should be allocated.

Why are employers recruiting skilled workers out-of-country when we're denying that training to our own kids? It makes absolutely no sense.

And the armchair pseudo-psychologists who think learning should be painful and punitive don't have the qualifications to make those judgements and often, to me, seem to be driven by some form of jealousy or resentment of youth.

Not a good justification for a major policy decision affecting the future growth of our economy and society, imo.

Do we deny youth health care because 'they have to learn to suffer'?

[eyeball]

It sounds almost like a cliche, or like someone pretending to be a Socialist in order to discredit the whole philosophy.

I hear what you're saying about shilling but are you seriously implying there is something creditable about socialist philosophy?

[Signals.Cpl]

Nobody said "everything" except you.

A few decades ago, this same argument, same talking points, were made in respect to making secondary school (high school) free for everyone.

At that time you could still get a good job without a high school diploma, though it was increasingly in demand.

Today you can still get a job without a postsecondary diploma/degree, but those qualifications are increasingly in demand and the jobs you get without them are not exactly careers you want to stick with.

I tried to help a young woman without a high school diploma get a job at a local burger stand. The manager just laughed and said "We have PhD students applying here." While that's a function of being in a university town, it's shocking nonetheless.

I think postsecondary education should be free too, since it is a requirement of most employers now.

It's already heavily subsidized, and not a huge step to full funding.

If we finally decided to extend full funding for secondary school for these students grandparents, it's now time to fully fund postsecondary education for this generation.

The money is there and it's our money and our decision how it should be allocated.

Why are employers recruiting skilled workers out-of-country when we're denying that training to our own kids? It makes absolutely no sense.

And the armchair pseudo-psychologists who think learning should be painful and punitive don't have the qualifications to make those judgements and often, to me, seem to be driven by some form of jealousy or resentment of youth.

Not a good justification for a major policy decision affecting the future growth of our economy and society, imo.

Do we deny youth health care because 'they have to learn to suffer'?

http://upi-yptk.ac.id/Ekonomi//Psacharopoulos_The-real.pdf?PHPSESSID=47e28c180b731783ea45dd3740283d5f

Explanation how much "free" higher education really costs. And you still haven't told us how you will get the money and then make an argument to use that money for "free" education rather then paying down the debt, improving healthcare, primary and secondary education, cutting down taxes or improving the military. Its a nice exercise for you to say we need free education...just as soon as one of those people I insult on a regular basis comes up with a realistic plan to accomplish this.

[Scotty]

I can make assumptions too.

Your whole position is based on assumptions.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Scotty

[Scotty]

No they're not. The number of supporters keeps growing on a daily basis.

The only ones tired of it are Charest's Conservative friends...

There is no indication that the 'strikers' have the support of more than a small group of leftists, separatists and anti-Charest people. In other words, the demand these people are making goes against the beliefs of something over 80% of the population. Which makes the protestors anti-democratic.

[Scotty]

I hear what you're saying about shilling but are you seriously implying there is something creditable about socialist philosophy?

I think some of the social democratic parties in Europe have performed admirably and have strong Socialist elements, but they've managed to avoid the silly trappings of rigid anti-capitalism.

[Michael Hardner]

Today you can still get a job without a postsecondary diploma/degree, but those qualifications are increasingly in demand and the jobs you get without them are not exactly careers you want to stick with.

If you're looking to work for somebody else, then technical training is likely a good way to go. Post-secondary general education, perhaps not so much unless you want to get into a field that needs generalists.

And self-employment is probably a good option today for the new emerging fields that are out there.

Why are employers recruiting skilled workers out-of-country when we're denying that training to our own kids? It makes absolutely no sense.

Because they don't want to train people or pay them.

[Guest Peeves]

Sure...

sedition - an illegal action inciting resistance to lawful authority and tending to cause the disruption or overthrow of the government

Insurrection- an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

This article is about the legal term. For other uses, see Sedition (disambiguation).

In law, sedition is overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that is deemed by the legal authority to tend toward insurrection against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority. Sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws. Seditious words in writing are seditious libel. A seditionist is one who engages in or promotes the interests of sedition.

Typically, sedition is considered a subversive act, and the overt acts that may be prosecutable under sedition laws vary from one legal code to another. Where the history of these legal codes has been traced, there is also a record of the change in the definition of the elements constituting sedition at certain points in history. This overview has served to develop a sociological definition of sedition as well, within the study of state persecution.

The difference between sedition and treason consists primarily in the subjective ultimate object of the violation to the public peace. Sedition does not consist of levying war against a government nor of adhering to its enemies, giving enemies aid, and giving enemies comfort. Nor does it consist, in most representative democracies, of peaceful protest against a government, nor of attempting to change the government by democratic means (such as direct democracy or constitutional convention).

Sedition is the stirring up of rebellion against the government in power. Treason is the violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or state, giving aid to enemies, or levying war against one's state. Sedition is encouraging one's fellow citizens to rebel against their state, whereas treason is actually betraying one's country by aiding and abetting another state. Sedition laws somewhat equate to terrorism and public order laws.

Peaceful protest is endorsed by any believing in democracy. What occurs during riots, Black Block attacks on businesses, or students jumping on desks and preventing others from school or other daily activities..others rights, is anarchy. It's not by any stretch acceptable in any democracy.

Further those inciting, condoning, fostering or financing such unlawful pursuits should also be charged..I.E Profs and union leaders.

[punked]

http://upi-yptk.ac.id/Ekonomi//Psacharopoulos_The-real.pdf?PHPSESSID=47e28c180b731783ea45dd3740283d5f

Explanation how much "free" higher education really costs. And you still haven't told us how you will get the money and then make an argument to use that money for "free" education rather then paying down the debt, improving healthcare, primary and secondary education, cutting down taxes or improving the military. Its a nice exercise for you to say we need free education...just as soon as one of those people I insult on a regular basis comes up with a realistic plan to accomplish this.

Know what I am tried of? Right wingers using Greece as the new Nazi. Here is something for you to think about. Greece isn't a left wing state, in a left wing state people pay taxes to pay for social programs. In Greece (which accumulated most of its over burdening debt under a CONSERVATIVE government who was cooking the books so they could get into the EU) people don't pay their taxes. It isn't a failed left wing state, or a failed right wing state it is just a failed state. This might shock you but it has nothing to do with left wing or right wing ideology and anyone who actually looks at what happened there would know that. Do some research,.

[Signals.Cpl]

Know what I am tried of? Right wingers using Greece as the new Nazi. Here is something for you to think about. Greece isn't a left wing state, in a left wing state people pay taxes to pay for social programs. In Greece (which accumulated most of its over burdening debt under a CONSERVATIVE government who was cooking the books so they could get into the EU) people don't pay their taxes. It isn't a failed left wing state, or a failed right wing state it is just a failed state. This might shock you but it has nothing to do with left wing or right wing ideology and anyone who actually looks at what happened there would know that. Do some research,.

And I am tired of people who are shown an example of the so called free education and ignore it because it does not fit their argument. This is not an argument on how good or bad greece is, this is to point out that free education is not really free. If you cannot be bothered to READ and UNDERSTAND this then you sir, are probably not in the right place. Some people want free education, here is an example of free education, where people spend as much on preparing their kids for college. I don't care about your left leaning nonsense, everything that comes out of Greece could be used to prove a point, here is an example of something that was tried and is failing, disprove the article rather then cry about the right wing, if you cannot argue again you are probably in the wrong place.

[Michael Hardner]

If you cannot be bothered to READ and UNDERSTAND this then you sir, are probably not in the right place.

The point punked made was that people in Greece don't pay their taxes, it's not that they're overtaxed.

[Claudius]

And I am tired of people who are shown an example of the so called free education and ignore it because it does not fit their argument.

You have to keep in mind it runs both ways. Proponents will put up Sweden as their model, but up until a couple years ago Sweden also had mandatory military service for example. Are a majority of Canadians willing to do something like that? The two policies obviously have a large disconnect, but my point is comparing single policies between nations is a hornets nest. The causes and effects of all the policies running in concert make a large part of a comparison a complete guessing game because they all affect each other. Consider the debate by more moderate opinions in the US about free health care. Many compellingly argue that comparing the US with Canada on this single policy is made invalid simply because the two systems are incompatible in other connected ways.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Claudius

[Michael Hardner]

but my point is comparing single policies between nations is a hornets nest.

Very true.... like comparing cultures, there are too many facets to consider... in the end, your opinion is just a matter of tastes IMO.

[dre]

Are a majority of Canadians willing to do something like that?

Yes I would be a strong proponent of that as long as the military was not used for world policing. If we are attacked then every single one of us SHOULD fight if we can. Short of that, I would also support some kind of blind draft.

[punked]

And I am tired of people who are shown an example of the so called free education and ignore it because it does not fit their argument. This is not an argument on how good or bad greece is, this is to point out that free education is not really free. If you cannot be bothered to READ and UNDERSTAND this then you sir, are probably not in the right place. Some people want free education, here is an example of free education, where people spend as much on preparing their kids for college. I don't care about your left leaning nonsense, everything that comes out of Greece could be used to prove a point, here is an example of something that was tried and is failing, disprove the article rather then cry about the right wing, if you cannot argue again you are probably in the wrong place.

Again no one is saying we should be Greece. No one thinks modeling an economy on a nation that too huge loans to pay for social programs and never collected taxes is a good idea. It is a poor argument. A real left winger truly believes we have to pay for the things we want. How do you do that? Why you grow the economy and collect taxes. Duh.

[Signals.Cpl]

The point punked made was that people in Greece don't pay their taxes, it's not that they're overtaxed.

Taxation is irrelevant, the report looks at the cost of a free education from the point of view of the student and their family rather then the state. It also looks at the change of the education system from testing your knowledge to moving heavily in the direction Teaching to the test. And it states that more and more Greeks are leaving the country to get an education elsewhere. The point is that a "free" education is not free, it only forces the student and their family to spend the money elsewhere in order to get an edge.

[Signals.Cpl]

You have to keep in mind it runs both ways. Proponents will put up Sweden as their model, but up until a couple years ago Sweden also had mandatory military service for example. Are a majority of Canadians willing to do something like that? The two policies obviously have a large disconnect, but my point is comparing single policies between nations is a hornets nest. The causes and effects of all the policies running in concert make a large part of a comparison a complete guessing game because they all affect each other. Consider the debate by more moderate opinions in the US about free health care. Many compellingly argue that comparing the US with Canada on this single policy is made invalid simply because the two systems are incompatible in other connected ways.

I understand that you could use a successful model, and yes sweden might or might not be a successful system, I don't know, but what I do know is that looking at one system and having a concrete example is better then the theoretical assumptions we make. All I have heard is that education is a right, and we should get that right free. No comparison to other nations that might have something similar, no learning from others mistakes, just us arguing theoretical points that do not prove anything. There are 3 kinds of people, and this extends to nations as well "Those who learn from other people/nations mistakes, those who learn from their own mistakes, and those who don't learn from mistakes." If we see that hey there are 20 nations using this model and 19 are unsuccessful then we would be stupid to try this unless we are able to see their mistakes, fix those mistakes before we implement the program and make sure that we don't make any other major mistakes.

[Signals.Cpl]

Again no one is saying we should be Greece. No one thinks modeling an economy on a nation that too huge loans to pay for social programs and never collected taxes is a good idea. It is a poor argument. A real left winger truly believes we have to pay for the things we want. How do you do that? Why you grow the economy and collect taxes. Duh.

Again, the point was that the article had nothing to do with the economy of greece, it was focusing on the costs to the student when the education is "free". Setting national finances aside, the point of the argument is that a free education is not free, it just forces you to spend similar amounts of money in other places in order to achieve the same goal.

Its like getting a $1,000 computer for free, and having to spend $950 on the operating system there is very little net effect, and when looking on a bigger scale the actual costs could be larger on the student.

[Michael Hardner]

Taxation is irrelevant, the report looks at the cost of a free education from the point of view of the student and their family rather then the state.

I looked at that report - they seem to be talking about opportunity cost. Is that right ? If so, that is kind of ridiculous. They're saying that if you were working, you'd be making 4 years of salary, and that is the 'cost' of education. But there is no cash outlay, and the returns from higher salary presumably outweigh this 'cost'. I mean, it does in Canada where we actually pay money and opportunity.

Am I misunderstanding that aspect of it ?

[Signals.Cpl]

I looked at that report - they seem to be talking about opportunity cost. Is that right ? If so, that is kind of ridiculous. They're saying that if you were working, you'd be making 4 years of salary, and that is the 'cost' of education. But there is no cash outlay, and the returns from higher salary presumably outweigh this 'cost'. I mean, it does in Canada where we actually pay money and opportunity.

Am I misunderstanding that aspect of it ?

I dont agree with that point either, my issue is the devaluation of the Greek Education system and the fact that people spend the price of the college education on tutors while in Canada we generally spend it on the tuition. When you make it free, the guys with more money use that money get an edge, thus you end up spending money just to keep up.

[Michael Hardner]

I dont agree with that point either, my issue is the devaluation of the Greek Education system and the fact that people spend the price of the college education on tutors while in Canada we generally spend it on the tuition. When you make it free, the guys with more money use that money get an edge, thus you end up spending money just to keep up.

Well, I have to acknowledge the point on tutors in Greece. I looked it up elsewhere and it's astonishing how much people do spend on tutors. I'd like to know more about that.

Making education free, though, doesn't give wealthy people an edge - think about how ridiculous that sounds.

[Signals.Cpl]

Well, I have to acknowledge the point on tutors in Greece. I looked it up elsewhere and it's astonishing how much people do spend on tutors. I'd like to know more about that.

Making education free, though, doesn't give wealthy people an edge - think about how ridiculous that sounds.

Well, now what stands between me a middle class guy and a university education is good grades to get in, good grades to stay in and pay my bills. When to get in to the university you need a tutor, who do you think can afford the best tutors, and the most time with them?

[Michael Hardner]

Well, now what stands between me a middle class guy and a university education is good grades to get in, good grades to stay in and pay my bills. When to get in to the university you need a tutor, who do you think can afford the best tutors, and the most time with them?

It's called meritocracy. The richest kid in my school could not have tutored himself to beat me in math, it was not possible.