CP strike

[Jack Weber]

How dare you say that about CUPE. Cupe fights right-wing economic policies. They look out for the little guy.

Because Sid Ryan doesn't live in the real world of neoliberal economics...

Edited May 26, 2012 by Jack Weber

[socialist]

Because Sid Ryan doesn't live in the real world of neoliberal economics...

Sid Ryan lives in the world of reality.

[Jack Weber]

Sid Ryan lives in the world of reality.

I'm sure you believe that...

[socialist]

I'm sure you believe that...

Seriously, you have a problem with Sid Ryan? What is this world coming to?

[Topaz]

Today, right now, in the House the Alliance/Troy party is bringing in a motion to send workers back to work for CP. I think most Canadians understand why but the problem is it give CP the advantage not to bargain in good faith and therefore, this is not fair. The Union has said take pension off the table and we will go back to work but CP said no because the shareholders, the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund and CPP want more money. When did CP because a private-American company, anyone know? http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/05/28/pol-canadian-pacific-rail-legislation.html

[waldo]

In your world, I enjoy the benefits negotiated by your brothers and sisters. In mine, I am forced to be underpaid for my services and denied any negotiating options due to your actions.

We can all get laid off together, somehting to look forward to.

I don't need or want your heavyhanded paternalism.

Nope...You still don't get it...

If one does not want to be a member of a union under Agency Shop provisions,they don't have to...

They can have their dues redirected to,for example,a charity of their choice (and get the resulting tax break for a charitable donation),but,this is done under the express knowledge that that person is declining representation....

In otherwords,they are on their own if they get into trouble with management...

What you really want is legislated union busting,under the obvious provisions in RTW legislation,under the guise of "personal freedom"...

Harper Conservative RTW... by stealth!

C-38: Repealing the Fair Wages Act

One of the measures is so sneaky, says NDP MP Pat Martin, nobody seemed to notice the line buried deep in the 452-page Bill C-38 that simply states, “The Fair Wages and Hours of Labour Act is repealed,” giving no explanation. With those 10 words, Ottawa intends to wipe out a 1985 law compelling contractors bidding on federal contracts to pay “fair wages” and overtime.

“I would have missed it and I’m from that industry. It was number 68 of 70 bills that they changed,” said Martin, a former journeyman carpenter and construction worker. Martin notes that unlike most measures in the budget bill, there was no prior discussion of the measure or even a signal such a change was contemplated. ”It’s a solution without a problem. The only conclusion I can come up with is that it’s a war on labour and the left. It’s what the Americans did with the right-to-work states and the end result is $8 or $9 an hour is now the average wage in places like North Carolina.”

[Rick]

Seriously, you have a problem with Sid Ryan? What is this world coming to?

Sid stands for everything a neo-fascist hates.

Fair wages, workers rights, anti-slavery...

That's why they have a problem with him.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Rick

[Fletch 27]

Sid stands for only one thing.. Lining his own pockets. He pretends to "stand up for the little guy", but he ensures the "little guy" is un-educated, un-motivated, and relyant on others (Sid). The only thing Sid Ryan loves more than his money is the "little guys" money..

Sid likes to keep the worker down and brow-beaten.. His job depends on it. The under-educated swoons for this stuff

Sid stands for everything a neo-fascist hates.

Fair wages, workers rights, anti-slavery...

That's why they have a problem with him.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Fletch 27

[Wild Bill]

Sid stands for everything a neo-fascist hates.

Fair wages, workers rights, anti-slavery...

That's why they have a problem with him.

Well, I'm far from being a neo-fascist, although I suspect you would consider me one simply for disagreeing with you about ANYTHING, including brands of beer!

Yet I also have always had a problem with Sid Ryan. It has always been obvious that he has never given a crap about any harm he does to ME!

Sid is the champion of union workers, especially those in the public sector. He tries to get the absolute most for those workers, no matter how extravagant or ridiculous it may seem to citizens not in those categories.

So these workers almost always make FAR more than I ever have! While I'm just a taxpayer who gets hit harder to pay for Sid's people.

I've long ago run out of any empathy I may have had, I'm afraid. No doubt, you will simply brand me as a greedy, envious bastard. That always seems to be the Sid Ryan type of rhetoric towards anyone who might challenge him. His membership can curse me over a few rounds of beer, while I worry about having milk in my fridge for my tea. Whatever, I no longer care. I'm too busy trying to keep my electricity and gas connected to my home.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Wild Bill

[Michael Hardner]

He tries to get the absolute most for those workers, no matter how extravagant or ridiculous it may seem to citizens not in those categories.

But aren't those qualities considered admirable when pursued by CEOs and corporations trying to maximize profits and personal gain ? Isn't economics a game to get the most you can ?

So these workers almost always make FAR more than I ever have! While I'm just a taxpayer who gets hit harder to pay for Sid's people.

You pay for everybody - with your taxes, with the goods and services you buy. What does it matter if some make more than you ? Isn't that to be expected ?

His membership can curse me over a few rounds of beer, while I worry about having milk in my fridge for my tea. Whatever, I no longer care. I'm too busy trying to keep my electricity and gas connected to my home.

You can't afford milk, electricity and gas ?!?!?! What ?

[eyeball]

I've long ago run out of any empathy I may have had, I'm afraid.

It's getting to be a real struggle sometimes isn't it?

Our little town just lost some 25 high paying union jobs. All government jobs mind you Coast Guard and Parks Canada...I'm pretty sure there were a few fist-pumps amidst the empathy too.

[Wild Bill]

But aren't those qualities considered admirable when pursued by CEOs and corporations trying to maximize profits and personal gain ? Isn't economics a game to get the most you can ?

You pay for everybody - with your taxes, with the goods and services you buy. What does it matter if some make more than you ? Isn't that to be expected ?

You can't afford milk, electricity and gas ?!?!?! What ?

Why would the fact that many CEOs today lack good character make me feel any better? Or is that the way you see me, some kind of caricature of a capitalism supporter who cackles while corporations get rich on the backs of peon workers?

I have no problem with anyone making more than I do, just being forced to pay for someone else's extravagant wage designs, often given to those who really aren't that skilled. Did you know that one of those higher paying CP jobs is just walking a stretch of track everyday, making sure there has been no damage? A necessary job but hardly deserving of the level of renumeration.

And Michael, not all of us live in a storybook world. I just ended a bad marriage, where I took a huge financial loss. I will be 60 this year. Age discrimination is real, no matter that it is officially against the law. My guitar amp build/repair business is up and down and over the year was never that high. It took a severe hit while my separation was worked out. That took over 2 and 1/2 years! Difficult and draining years, at that.

My original career was totally de-railed. The industry I grew up in has been decimated. Thousands of us lost jobs that have never come back. I live in Hamilton, which has had one of the highest unemployment rates in Ontario for a long time now.

And you seem incredulous as you ask me about not being able to afford milk for my tea instead of beer with my buddies? Sorry to disillusion you Michael but I ran out of time while juggling finances last month and my phone/Internet was cut off for a few weeks.

I've since found a part-time job. Minimum wage but it does give just enough to put me into a positive position. I'm slowly catching up on the arrears with the utilities. I may barely have my nose out of the water but I'm slowly floating higher, instead of sinking.

I am not complaining, by any means. There are lots of folks doing far worse than I am. At my age, I also have lost some friends to cancer and such.

So I am talking from a valid perspective, Michael. The thought of a guaranteed and high paying job no matter what the vagarities of the economy was never a possibility for me in the private sector.

I'm afraid I just can't hold any respect for Sid Ryan and his charges. They have advantages guys like me could only have dreamed.

[Jack Weber]

Harper Conservative RTW... by stealth!

C-38: Repealing the Fair Wages Act

This is about as Machiavellian as it gets...

As I understand the Dominatrix of the "Free Market",wages and overtime rules are simply excessive "red tape"??

Do I have that correct?

And the Right to Work loving,"Open Shop" lobbying "Merit" Shop folks are singin' the praises...

The "free" market downward spiral into industrial serfdom/Dickensian poverty continues with the "freedom" loving legislators taking the point on this one for their corporate benefactors...

Edited June 1, 2012 by Jack Weber

[bleeding heart]

This is about as Machiavellian as it gets...

As I understand the Dominatrix of the "Free Market",wages and overtime rules are simply excessive "red tape"??

Do I have that correct?

To be fair, not all these folks believe them to be "red tape"; some think they are unreasonable "entitlements" gifted to coddled workers......

[Michael Hardner]

Why would the fact that many CEOs today lack good character make me feel any better? Or is that the way you see me, some kind of caricature of a capitalism supporter who cackles while corporations get rich on the backs of peon workers?

I don't see it that way; I'm just wondering when is greed good and when is it not good ?

I have no problem with anyone making more than I do, just being forced to pay for someone else's extravagant wage designs, often given to those who really aren't that skilled. Did you know that one of those higher paying CP jobs is just walking a stretch of track everyday, making sure there has been no damage? A necessary job but hardly deserving of the level of renumeration.

See the question above.

And you seem incredulous as you ask me about not being able to afford milk for my tea instead of beer with my buddies? Sorry to disillusion you Michael but I ran out of time while juggling finances last month and my phone/Internet was cut off for a few weeks.

If you can't afford milk, I feel for you. I can see that you're living in poverty from your note below.

I've since found a part-time job. Minimum wage but it does give just enough to put me into a positive position. I'm slowly catching up on the arrears with the utilities. I may barely have my nose out of the water but I'm slowly floating higher, instead of sinking.

I am not complaining, by any means. There are lots of folks doing far worse than I am. At my age, I also have lost some friends to cancer and such.

So I am talking from a valid perspective, Michael. The thought of a guaranteed and high paying job no matter what the vagarities of the economy was never a possibility for me in the private sector.

If you had got on with CP (private sector) then you would be much better off now, right ?

I'm afraid I just can't hold any respect for Sid Ryan and his charges. They have advantages guys like me could only have dreamed.

Upon reviewing your situation, I find it strange that you hold it against union guys, who make a good wage working in the private sector. Did you ever work for DoFasco or Stelco in the hammer ?

[Jack Weber]

I don't see it that way; I'm just wondering when is greed good and when is it not good ?

See the question above.

If you can't afford milk, I feel for you. I can see that you're living in poverty from your note below.

If you had got on with CP (private sector) then you would be much better off now, right ?

Upon reviewing your situation, I find it strange that you hold it against union guys, who make a good wage working in the private sector. Did you ever work for DoFasco or Stelco in the hammer ?

Interesting that you bring up DOFASCO and Stelco...

Non-union people in the area always point to how well employees were treated at DOFASCO...Which is true!!!

High wages,good bennies...Lot's of other perks (The DOFASCO park on Hamilton mountain etc.)...

What these folks conveniently forget is that whenever Local 1005 went out on strike,whatever increases gained by that sacrifice across the street,were also gained at DOFASCO...I would also point out that during all job action at Stelco that I can remember,they folks working at DOFASCO always donated money to Local 1005 at their gates.In fact,I could make the case that DOFASCO was indirectly unionized because management there knew full well what it took to keep that company non-union...

[Fletch 27]

So it was non union right?

Interesting that you bring up DOFASCO and Stelco...

Non-union people in the area always point to how well employees were treated at DOFASCO...Which is true!!!

High wages,good bennies...Lot's of other perks (The DOFASCO park on Hamilton mountain etc.)...

What these folks conveniently forget is that whenever Local 1005 went out on strike,whatever increases gained by that sacrifice across the street,were also gained at DOFASCO...I would also point out that during all job action at Stelco that I can remember,they folks working at DOFASCO always donated money to Local 1005 at their gates.In fact,I could make the case that DOFASCO was indirectly unionized because management there knew full well what it took to keep that company non-union...

[dre]

So these workers almost always make FAR more than I ever have!

Maybe but EVERYONES wages are higher because of organised labor, even workers in non-union shops. Without the labor movement you probably would have had a rather short, brutal, and shitty life.

[Wild Bill]

Maybe but EVERYONES wages are higher because of organised labor, even workers in non-union shops. Without the labor movement you probably would have had a rather short, brutal, and shitty life.

Perhaps, but the world has changed and the labour movement often seems to be completely oblivious to competition facing employers from outside the country!

Stelco, now U S Steel, must compete with product from China, India and other countries. The Hamilton local spent a year on strike for nothing. U S Steel still can't compete with the cost of producing steel in Hilton works against those countries. The union demands were not just impossible to meet but totally irrelevant to the modern market situation.

If U S Steel had have met their demands it would simply have had their plant go bankrupt. Period and end of story.

[dre]

Perhaps, but the world has changed and the labour movement often seems to be completely oblivious to competition facing employers from outside the country!

Stelco, now U S Steel, must compete with product from China, India and other countries. The Hamilton local spent a year on strike for nothing. U S Steel still can't compete with the cost of producing steel in Hilton works against those countries. The union demands were not just impossible to meet but totally irrelevant to the modern market situation.

If U S Steel had have met their demands it would simply have had their plant go bankrupt. Period and end of story.

Perhaps, but the world has changed and the labour movement often seems to be completely oblivious to competition facing employers from outside the country!

Right right. Now that we trade with people that live in abject squallor we will need to move closer to squallor as well to be competitive. I know how the plan goes.

But do you honestly expect workers to stop fighting for better wages? Especially with the costs of the most important things they buy going up fast?

[Wild Bill]

Right right. Now that we trade with people that live in abject squallor we will need to move closer to squallor as well to be competitive. I know how the plan goes.

But do you honestly expect workers to stop fighting for better wages? Especially with the costs of the most important things they buy going up fast?

Dre, I admire people who will actively fight for a cause. I have even done so from time to time myself!

I just don't admire fighting the wrong targets. That is, targets who can't help you achieve your goals.

Putting a domestic steel company out of business will not protect workers' wages. Why not fight the government for "green" tariffs on steel produced in countries that have no compulsory anti-pollution measures imposed on their manufacturers, like China, Russia and India? If they save $20 per ton by making steel in a dirty manner why should we allow them to ship product into Canada where they can out-compete our domestic manufacturers?

Forcing our domestic manufacturers to give more benefits to their workers while they are being forced out of business anyway by foreign competitors is just plain stupid!

[BubberMiley]

So it was non union right?

Non-union in competition with union labour. If unions didn't exist, their wages and benefits would plummet from lack of competition. Everybody's standard of living has improved as a result of our union brothers who single-handedly created the middle class.

[Michael Hardner]

And let it be clear that union and non-union labour are both un-competitive if the jobs can be offshored.

[bleeding heart]

And let it be clear that union and non-union labour are both un-competitive if the jobs can be offshored.

Well, that's exactly right, a point often missed in the union debates.

Labour-costs wise, we cannot compete with several other countries. Period. It's impossible.

Heck, the wages paid in many of these countries is wildly insufficient for them, even though their money goes a lot further on living expenses.

Here? Forget it. Such wages are literally unliveable ones.

[Michael Hardner]

Heck, the wages paid in many of these countries is wildly insufficient for them, even though their money goes a lot further on living expenses.

I think that the wages paid are probably better than is usually explained. There is an obvious need to paint the trade imbalance in as worse a light as possible in order to try to get it changed.