Quebec student strike

[Argus]

You do understand that protests aren't supposed to be convenient, right?

An 'inconvenience' which lasts three months is on a somewhat different scale. And losing your school year to a bunch of whiny people who won't let you get educated because they don't' like government policy is more than inconvenient.

I can't think of anywhere else in Canada this sort of thing would be tolerated, frankly.

[Argus]

Any crowd of people assembled in the city blocks traffic. Theres nothing wrong with that at all. Sometimes the state needs to be opposed by the public, and when that happens a few of the governments hundreds of thousands of little rules might get broken.

Got forbid somebody might disobey your beloved almighty state huh?

Like throwing bricks and bottles at people?

[dre]

Like throwing bricks and bottles at people?

Hey I dont want anyone to get bricks thrown at them, but whether you think its right or not sometimes theres violent clashes between groups of citizens and the governments security apparatus.

This is part of running a society... Its human nature. I dont know if youve played any civilization building video games before but if you do certain things you will get protests, and if you dont deal with them properly they escalate into riots. Its a real hassle because they disrupt economic activity and costs money to mitigate. And historically it can result in the fall of entire governments.

This is the balancing act our rulers have to perpetually manage. If they piss people off too much they will have a fight on their hands. Its important that they are perpetually afraid of that.

So... if you are charged with the macro management of an economy, one of the things that can cause a lot of civil unrest is inflation, and price instability... And thats exactly what we are seeing here. The real cost of services like education are growing much faster than the purchasing power of your average family, and every time the cost of college tuition goes up a few thousand dollars, thousands of people are effectively barred from entry.

Edited May 5, 2012 by dre

[Fletch 27]

It would be REALLY interesting to hear what Mulcair has to say about all of this? Now why, may i ask, has this half-wit not spoken publicly in ANY media outlet on this? "Ooops, your Staling is showing"...

If this jack-ass is so "popular" and favored through thsi so-called "Orange crush", why would he not take thestage and "rise like an angel from the ashes" to point out the erros of either parties ways???

Even Black-Jack Layton would have been chomping at the bit to get the air-time... Something is fishy with Mulcair and his motives..

[Argus]

Hey I dont want anyone to get bricks thrown at them, but whether you think its right or not sometimes theres violent clashes between groups of citizens and the governments security apparatus.

In a democratic state there really is no excuse for violence towards the 'governments security apparatus' or anything else.

This is part of running a society... Its human nature. I dont know if youve played any civilization building video games before but if you do certain things you will get protests, and if you dont deal with them properly they escalate into riots.

Dealing with them properly = giving in to the demands of a vocal minority?

[Fletch 27]

EXACTLY! The Media favors the Minority and always will.. Facts are facts, its less than 1/4 of the student bitching and moaning and the rest understand how well off they are when compared to the rest of the country...

The media will always favor the looser.. Its good for press.. Meanwhile, the rest of us in the majority haveto grin and bear the violence..

In a democratic state there really is no excuse for violence towards the 'governments security apparatus' or anything else.

Dealing with them properly = giving in to the demands of a vocal minority?

[jacee]

Education is a provincial matter so I doubt the federal leaders would speak up about it.

And it looks like the "emergency" talks have been constructive.

quebec-government-makes-proposal-to-students-to-end-tuition-protests

VICTORIAVILLE, QUE. — There has been a possible breakthrough in the three-month tuition crisis in Quebec, with news of a tentative agreement between the provincial government and student eaders. It’s unclear whether the deal, hammered out after a 24-hour negotiating session that dragged through the night, will end months of unrest. Student leaders were referring to the arrangement as a government “offer,” while the government was using more affirmative language.

...

Details of the agreement were only set to be announced publicly later Saturday, after student leaders had a chance to share them with members. Students planned to vote on the arrangement over the coming days.

[Fletch 27]

Oooo A government "Offer"..... So these scumbags are taking it as an offer..... Now who exactly is running the province???

I say open up with the rubber bullets...

Education is a provincial matter so I doubt the federal leaders would speak up about it.

And it looks like the "emergency" talks have been constructive.

quebec-government-makes-proposal-to-students-to-end-tuition-protests

VICTORIAVILLE, QUE. — There has been a possible breakthrough in the three-month tuition crisis in Quebec, with news of a tentative agreement between the provincial government and student eaders. It’s unclear whether the deal, hammered out after a 24-hour negotiating session that dragged through the night, will end months of unrest. Student leaders were referring to the arrangement as a government “offer,” while the government was using more affirmative language.

...

Details of the agreement were only set to be announced publicly later Saturday, after student leaders had a chance to share them with members. Students planned to vote on the arrangement over the coming days.

[CPCFTW]

Oooo A government "Offer"..... So these scumbags are taking it as an offer..... Now who exactly is running the province???

I say open up with the rubber bullets...

At this point the offer should be get back out of the streets or it's rubber bullets, tear gas, and expulsion from school.

What kind of protest is this any way? It's akin to a group of welfare recipients rioting for more money. Protests used to be about governments killing and oppressing people, now they're about not giving out enough handouts.

[jacee]

Oooo A government "Offer"..... So these scumbags are taking it as an offer..... Now who exactly is running the province???

I say open up with the rubber bullets...

They've been doing that for weeks and the students keep coming back ...

but this is the first face shot ...

One man has lost the use of one of his eye and sustained head injuries after a student demonstration against proposed tuition fee hikes turned violent in a matter of minutes Victoriaville, Que. Friday night The man, who will require surgery, is one o two men in their twenties being treated in hospital Saturday. The other man is ... in stable condition police arrested 106 people ...

Does that make you happy?

One demonstrator was reportedly shot in the face with a rubber bullet.

Feel better now?

[capricorn]

They've been doing that for weeks and the students keep coming back ...

but this is the first face shot ...

One man has lost the use of one of his eye and sustained head injuries after a student demonstration against proposed tuition fee hikes turned violent in a matter of minutes Victoriaville, Que. Friday night The man, who will require surgery, is one o two men in their twenties being treated in hospital Saturday. The other man is ... in stable condition police arrested 106 people ...

Does that make you happy?

One demonstrator was reportedly shot in the face with a rubber bullet.

Feel better now?

What did you expect? That law enforcement agencies would serve them tea and crumpets?

They went into Victoriaville "angry". They were present at a riot and some participated in the riot, and some got hurt. That's life in the fast lane.

A total of 55 buses had been chartered from Montreal, Quebec City, Rimouski, Trois Rivières and various other urban centres to ferry people to Friday’s event, which was billed as an expression of “general anger” at the Charest government.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Victoriaville+cleans+after+protests/6572657/story.html

[jacee]

What did you expect? That law enforcement agencies would serve them tea and crumpets?

They went into Victoriaville "angry". They were present at a riot and some participated in the riot, and some got hurt. That's life in the fast lane.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Victoriaville+cleans+after+protests/6572657/story.html

No it's no surprise that someone's been seriously hurt

, permanently injured.

What is surprising is that the students kept going out there every night.

Very committed and courageous. They got their tuition freeze ... for six months ... and the role they wanted in identifying savings to replace the increase now and in six months. Charest can say his tuition increase "policy" is still in place ... for six months.

The tentative deal allowed both the government and student groups to emerge from the meeting claiming victory over the three-month old strike."It is a fair approach -- and it is going to be not on tuition fees but on administrative fees that are charged to students," Charest said."The fact is we have maintained the policy, and in fairness we are going to look if we can do better on the administration fees."

But student leaders used different language, saying "they got what they wanted -- a tuition freeze or a moratorium," said CTV Montreal's Maya Johnson Student leader Leo Bureau-Blouin called the proposed deal a success at a press conference Sunday" I think it will have a real impact on accessible post-secondary education," he said. "I think that overall Quebec students can be proud of what they did."

http://m.ctv.ca/topstories/20120506/quebec-student-protests-folo-120506.html#menu

[Fletch 27]

Hes got another eye,,

No it's no surprise that someone's been seriously hurt

, permanently injured.

What is surprising is that the students kept going out there every night.

Very committed and courageous. They got their tuition freeze ... for six months ... and the role they wanted in identifying savings to replace the increase now and in six months. Charest can say his tuition increase "policy" is still in place ... for six months.

The tentative deal allowed both the government and student groups to emerge from the meeting claiming victory over the three-month old strike."It is a fair approach -- and it is going to be not on tuition fees but on administrative fees that are charged to students," Charest said."The fact is we have maintained the policy, and in fairness we are going to look if we can do better on the administration fees."

But student leaders used different language, saying "they got what they wanted -- a tuition freeze or a moratorium," said CTV Montreal's Maya Johnson Student leader Leo Bureau-Blouin called the proposed deal a success at a press conference Sunday" I think it will have a real impact on accessible post-secondary education," he said. "I think that overall Quebec students can be proud of what they did."

http://m.ctv.ca/topstories/20120506/quebec-student-protests-folo-120506.html#menu

[munsinger]

A few things....

Have traveled in S.E Asia for 20+ years. Was in Indonesia, watching students taking to the streets, against Suharto. They were protesting for the right to have free political parties....in the face of a totally oppressive dictatorship.

The Quebec tuition "protesters" certainly have a perfect right to protest as they see fit - but they perhaps need to get back to classes....and gain some better insight into the whole concept of "oppression"

In this case, by "striking"....exactly what "services" are the students currently witholding from their neighbourhoods, communities, or for that matter, the general society? Perhaps this is one more concept, that needs further learning.

[GostHacked]

There is civil disobedience, and then there is smashing windows, burning cars, painting walls and preventing innocent bystanders from going about their normal business.

And it's always the small element of the protesters that take part in that behaviour. And we have established that in some occasions, it is the police who are actually causing the damage or trying to incite others into causing mayhem.

[GostHacked]

In a democratic state there really is no excuse for violence towards the 'governments security apparatus' or anything else.

So peaceful protesters should be treated with the same heavy hand as the people who actually do the rioting?

[jacee]

Several Quebec student groups reject tentative deal

Several student associations from Universities and CEGEPs in Quebec have rejected the tentative deal reached with the provincial government that would end a 13-week strike Votes were carried out Monday amongst certain student groups at many Quebec universities and CEGEPS, with all but one group rejecting the deal so far.

Face of Quebec’s student protest surprised by its power

The trend seems to indicate that it will be rejected. We will have to evaluate the situation after all the votes are taken What is clear is that the strike would continue and we would return to the bargaining table to discuss the central issue, which is the tuition fee hikes. Do you feel betrayed at all in you

Quebec’s youth may be showing the way of what can be done. Everywhere in the world we see austerity measures implemented and everywhere people are mobilizing against them. Here in Quebec we are showing that we can succeed – and what better proof to show that it is worth putting up a fight in order to change the way things are done?

It's not looking like a settlement yet.

If all those who vote against are going back out on strike it will be possibly much bigger.

And I can see the government being much angrier and the police more violent.

I can understand why the student leaders are ticked at Charest for crowing about maintaining the tuition hikes, on paper if not in reality. It was pretty stupid of him and may kill the deal. His loss.

[capricorn]

CLASSE, the most radical of the main student groups, published an insider’s account of the negotiations. The document said the CLASSE negotiator signed the agreement Saturday without fully reading its contents and failed to notice some modifications. It blamed the government for rushing things and refusing to give negotiators a break so they could nap.

“During the signature of the final document to be referred for consultation, [the CLASSE negotiator] was considerably less awake, alert and capable of critical thinking,” it said.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/05/07/graeme-hamilton-quebec-student-deal-is-far-from-settled/

One student negotiator complained he was too tired when he signed off on the deal. Another didn't read the deal before signing it. I wonder what excuses they'll come up with when the next round of negotiations doesn't go their way.

[jacee]

Students' perception that the government was gloating about winning the three-month-long dispute quickly brought any hopes of ending the deadlock to a screeching halt.

There it is ... Charest and his Education Minister's political gloating sunk the deal.

Did they think the students wouldn't notice?

Now the only good faith move they can make is to cancel the tuition increase policy.

[capricorn]

Charest and his Education Minister's political gloating sunk the deal.

Not at all. It's because they failed to give petit Paul and petit Luc a blankie and a soother, and a quiet room so they could nap.

[munsinger]

Imagine, having students working (well ok, striking) in a small room.....with little sleep, no lattes or Itunes. No wonder they eventually became "duped"

We, as a just society, should not tolerate such blatent oppression.

[jacee]

Young people believe their cause is a fight for future generations

________________________________________

And they are right. Excellent article by the leader of one of the student unions.

________________________________________

By Lex Gill, May 11, 2012

This week, tens of thousands of students voted on the Quebec government’s most recent offer to striking students. However, given that the deal effectively maintains an 82-per-cent tuition increase over seven years (with an ambiguous committee that might reduce non-tuition fees), it’s of no particular surprise that the offer has been rejected nearly across the board.

...

When the electoral process fails an entire generation, when public consultation isn’t meaningful, when petitions, letters and phone calls to elected representatives go unheard, there is often no other option than to express those convictions in the street. It bears noting that never in this province’s history has such a prolonged public outcry been left truly unaddressed by those in power.

Not all issues are equal: surely some will generate more intense political reaction than others. But this one has captured the public’s frustration and imagination, and the attention of young people, in a way that few political causes ever will. And when the government’s response is obstinate, dismissive and contemptuous, what kind of democracy is that?

There is a tenacity and spirit behind the student movement that serve to remind us that a ballot in a box every few years should never trump the will of an entire generation. I’ll say this for the Charest government: at the very least it has managed to create a social crisis so profound that the myth of our “apathetic youth” is dead. Perhaps it is the government that has a thing or two to learn from students about democracy.

I respect the Quebec students for keeping up the struggle for postsecondary accessibility for all, for not caving to a 'face-saving' temporary delay in tuition hikes that served them temporarily but not future students.

I respect them also for their efforts to identify cost-savings to alleviate tuition hikes. One in particular caught my eye: They said stop building satellite campuses because institutions are just doing that to compete with one another, steal each other's students. I agree. Such competition belongs in the private sector. In public, taxpayer funded institutions, competition is simply redundancy, inefficiency, and a waste of taxpayer money.

Efficiency among public postsecondary institutions is collaboration, coordination, and cooperation across institutions, including between colleges and universities. Students go both ways these days, from college diploma to university degrees, and from university degrees to college diplomas: Applied skills get you the entry level job, while theory gets you more opportunity for advancement.

I know from past research that free postsecondary tuition is the appropriate policy to ensure that all students capable of achieving have access to education: Higher tuition fees affordable only for some, don't get you better students, just ones with more affluent parents. Higher achievement actually goes hand in hand with broader accessibility.

And btw, ACCESSIBILITY of education is what Canada does best: Our rate of enrolment in elementary and secondary education is virtually 100% the highest in the world. (US about 85%) Our achievement levels are average to high, surpassed only by countries with much lower rates of enrolment, ie, where students are 'selected' for education (and for participation in international assessments).

Our postsecondary enrolment is high but can be higher. If young people can't afford postsecondary education, then we are not developing our human resources efficiently nor effectively, and it is our loss as a society.

So ... kudos to the Quebec students. They are on the right path. Let's hope the spirit spreads to other provinces where high tuition is a barrier to the progress of the economy and the entire country.

Edited May 13, 2012 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

And btw, ACCESSIBILITY of education is what Canada does best: Our rate of enrolment in elementary and secondary education is virtually 100% the highest in the world. (US about 85%)....

Many Canadian students enroll in US schools for even better "access" to education. Virtually the highest means nothing in this context.

[August1991]

I respect the Quebec students for keeping up the struggle for postsecondary accessibility for all, for not caving to a 'face-saving' temporary delay in tuition hikes that served them temporarily but not future students.

Respect them all you want, jacee, but the strike/boycott has reached a nadir in public opinion now after the mess on Thursday, and the subsequent arrests. (The metro shut down but what reports fail to add is that the car traffic became even more horrendous.)

I respect them also for their efforts to identify cost-savings to alleviate tuition hikes. One in particular caught my eye: They said stop building satellite campuses because institutions are just doing that to compete with one another, steal each other's students. I agree. Such competition belongs in the private sector. In public, taxpayer funded institutions, competition is simply redundancy, inefficiency, and a waste of taxpayer money.

Efficiency among public postsecondary institutions is collaboration, coordination, and cooperation across institutions, including between colleges and universities. Students go both ways these days, from college diploma to university degrees, and from university degrees to college diplomas: Applied skills get you the entry level job, while theory gets you more opportunity for advancement.

This was the essence of the deal signed with the Minister, that was then rejected. In any case, these issues have existed for several years. Why didn't the students strike before? This strike is due solely to the tuition increase. The students only care about the paper in their own wallets.

I know from past research that free postsecondary tuition is the appropriate policy to ensure that all students capable of achieving have access to education: Higher tuition fees affordable only for some, don't get you better students, just ones with more affluent parents. Higher achievement actually goes hand in hand with broader accessibility.

You mean, the Finnish, Swedish or Norwegian system?

Finland and Norway have obligatory military service. Norway sells its gasoline to its own people at $3.50 per litre. And Sweden has an HST at 25% and despite their hydro resources, Swedes pay about 25 cents/kwh.

Quebec has no military service, electricity costs about 6 cents/kwh, gasoline is about $1.40/litre and the combined GST/PST is about 15%. Yet, Quebec students only pay about 15% of the cost of their 2nd/3rd/4th year university (if their parents earn more than $60,000 per year). (The 1st year university is in Cegep and essentially paid by taxpayers.)

So, all things considered, is the Scandinavian model so good after all?

Edited May 14, 2012 by August1991

[Signals.Cpl]

Respect them all you want, jacee, but the strike/boycott has reached a nadir in public opinion now after the mess on Thursday, and the subsequent arrests. (The metro shut down but what reports fail to add is that the car traffic became even more horrendous.)

This was the essence of the deal signed with the Minister, that was then rejected. In any case, these issues have existed for several years. Why didn't the students strike before? This strike is due solely to the tuition increase. The students only care about the paper in their own wallets.

You mean, the Finnish, Swedish or Norwegian system?

Finland and Norway have obligatory military service. Norway sells its gasoline to its own people at $3.50 per litre. And Sweden has an HST at 25% and despite their hydro resources, Swedes pay about 25 cents/kwh.

Quebec has no military service, electricity costs about 6 cents/kwh, gasoline is about $1.40/litre and the combined GST/PST is about 15%. Yet, Quebec students only pay about 15% of the cost of their 2nd/3rd/4th year university (if their parents earn more than $60,000 per year). (The 1st year university is in Cegep and essentially paid by taxpayers.)

So, all things considered, is the Scandinavian model so good after all?

Grass is always greener on the other side.