F-35 Purchase

[eyeball]

When I see this type of idiotic thinking I know that the writer has absolutely NO right to bitch about ANYTHING ANY government does.

If you didn't vote YOU are the problem :ph34r:

If you vote for liars, cheats and thieves that makes you the problem. Voting only encourages them.

[eyeball]

IMO, no amount of PR will bring the message home that the military plays an integral part in defending our sovereignty. Sadly, I don't think Canadians will be awakened to the need for a strong military until Canada experiences its own 9/11.

9/11 demonstrated a need for more intelligent, transparent and just foreign affairs policies.

The military response to a criminal act was itself criminal.

[jacee]

MSVS-2011

Shipbuilding strategy-2010

Chinooks -2009

Leopard 2-2007

JSS-2009

Arctic Patrol Ship Project-2007

All of this projects were approved after 2006.

And the Auditor-General addressed those purchases too:

...in fact there is no difference of opinion: that the policy of accounting for all the lifetime costs of an asset, without exception, is not some crazy invention of the Auditor-General’s, or some musty Treasury Board guideline. It is the publicly stated policy of the Department of National Defence — the department of which, if memory serves, MacKay is the minister. The policy the minister sees fit to ridicule is, according to conventional constitutional doctrine, his policy.

How do I know this? From a reading of another Auditor-General’s report, this one from the fall of 2010, dealing with another military procurement deal: the purchase of 43 Cyclone and Chinook helicopters to replace the notorious Sea Kings. (The Auditor-General at that time was Sheila Fraser, of sponsorships fame.) The report makes familiar reading. Many of the same issues raised by the department’s handling of the F-35 deal are here: the same overstating of benefits, the same understating of risks, the same failure to document claims throughout. And among the Auditor- General’s complaints, again, is the failure to properly count the costs.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/full-comment/blog.html?b=fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/04/11/andrew-coyne-auditor-generals-f-35-accounting-complaints-are-deja-vu-for-peter-mackay

They've been told repeatedly to follow their own policy.

No excuses.

Now the whole issue has gained the attention of the public.

That's Harper's fault and it's now his political problem.

He could have easily avoided it by just producing the total cost breakdown when asked.

Would you not agree that would have been the most effective strategy, Cpl?

[Signals.Cpl]

And the Auditor-General addressed those purchases too:

...in fact there is no difference of opinion: that the policy of accounting for all the lifetime costs of an asset, without exception, is not some crazy invention of the Auditor-General’s, or some musty Treasury Board guideline. It is the publicly stated policy of the Department of National Defence — the department of which, if memory serves, MacKay is the minister. The policy the minister sees fit to ridicule is, according to conventional constitutional doctrine, his policy.

How do I know this? From a reading of another Auditor-General’s report, this one from the fall of 2010, dealing with another military procurement deal: the purchase of 43 Cyclone and Chinook helicopters to replace the notorious Sea Kings. (The Auditor-General at that time was Sheila Fraser, of sponsorships fame.) The report makes familiar reading. Many of the same issues raised by the department’s handling of the F-35 deal are here: the same overstating of benefits, the same understating of risks, the same failure to document claims throughout. And among the Auditor- General’s complaints, again, is the failure to properly count the costs.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/full-comment/blog.html?b=fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/04/11/andrew-coyne-auditor-generals-f-35-accounting-complaints-are-deja-vu-for-peter-mackay

They've been told repeatedly to follow their own policy.

No excuses.

Now the whole issue has gained the attention of the public.

That's Harper's fault and it's now his political problem.

He could have easily avoided it by just producing the total cost breakdown when asked.

Would you not agree that would have been the most effective strategy, Cpl?

I don't care if its policy or not, I want to know why the F-35s? The NSPS alone accounts for 33 billion dollars in ships for both the RCN and CG, so I don't see why all the fuss over the F-35 while no fuss for something that costs 19billion more.

NSPS cost 33 billion

F-35 cost 14 billion

The only reason I can see why the F-35 is such a big deal while the NSPS is not is that it is simply politics. No party wants to piss off the East Coast, West Coast, Quebec and Ontario at the same time. I think if the F-35 is such a big deal, informing the public about the NSPS which costs 19billion more would make sense right?

[Smallc]

$19B more? The $33B is for acquisition only, and doesn't include maintenance.

[Signals.Cpl]

Now the whole issue has gained the attention of the public.

That's Harper's fault and it's now his political problem.

He could have easily avoided it by just producing the total cost breakdown when asked.

Would you not agree that would have been the most effective strategy, Cpl?

No I don't agree with this, the fact is the numbers the AG pulled out are essential pulled from thin air. If over the next 10 years 20 of our F-35s crash, or have to be cannibalized for spare parts the entire equation is thrown off by 30%. One major war and the amount could drastically change. Honestly this is politics, you and the rest of the anti-Harper crowd are up in arms not because of this issue, but because it is the Conservatives that are moving along with it. I think that the next time a pilot dies, the opposition should be forced to go to the funeral and explain to the family of the pilot why he or she is dead now, because of politics. Just like the Liberals should have been forces to go to the funerals of the Sea King casualties and explain to the families how the people they love were let down by an incompetent group of politicians. NDP and the liberals want to score points on this issue, let them see the consequences.

[Signals.Cpl]

$19B more? The $33B is for acquisition only, and doesn't include maintenance.

Yeah because I am using the same criteria for the F-35s and NSPS.

The NSPS costs 33 billion

the F-35 costs 14 billion

[Signals.Cpl]

no - the Canadian public needs to understand how much funding the Canadian military is receiving, whether capital or operational based. As MLW member cybercoma repeatedly states, Treasury Board policy rules dictate delineated costs, capital versus operational, must be reported... this is a most fundamental auditing requirement to help ensure that money earmarked for capital programs is not spent on operations and vice versa.

clearly, overall cost was purposely 'down played' by Harper Conservatives, whether by "hiding" the operational costs, outright, or by skewing them with a ridiculous 20-year life-cycle attachment.

Why pick and choose? Why doesn't the NDP bring forward that the NSPS did not follow the rules? When the 33 billion dollar price tag for CG and RCN vessels doubles at the very least then the contract is going to be eliminated, but then again so are the jobs that so many Canadians will be getting from the project and thus will eliminate the NDP's chance for leading the government. If you are going to use the criteria on the F-35's then make sure you go back and use it on any and every project since the policy came in to effect. I wonder why the NDP is not interested in the NSPS, any Ideas?

[Signals.Cpl]

9/11 demonstrated a need for more intelligent, transparent and just foreign affairs policies.

The military response to a criminal act was itself criminal.

Criminal? You mean the shutting down the airspace to prevent further acts on Either Canadian or American targets? Soldiers deployed to protect vital targets like major airports?

[cybercoma]

See, that's how I feel about the F-35 cost things (though I understand that it isn't about the cost for you). The number of comments I've seen on message boards that are just so uninformed over the $25B figure.......

Yeah, but the F-35 thing is about government lying to parliament.

Here, Harper is just being criticized for every penny that he spends because he's trying to introduce austerity measures, so it look hypocritical. I don't believe that it is. The guy has every right to take his daughter to a game and he paid back some of the money. The rest of the money isn't his responsibility. He doesn't have to pay for his own security detail.

[cybercoma]

No I don't agree with this, the fact is the numbers the AG pulled out are essential pulled from thin air.

Now we know it's not worth responding to you because you have absolutely no credibility.

[Signals.Cpl]

Now we know it's not worth responding to you because you have absolutely no credibility.

Yeah and a report that estimates the cost for 20 years in the future is so reliable? One major war where we have to deploy 10 or more fighters for an extensive period of time(Over a year) and with increase operational tempo, the 5billion for CF personnel will increase as will the operational cost. Suddenly the 11Billion dollars extra does not cover 20 years, it covers 10 years. the additional 11 billion is nothing but a guess, because should the Canadian Economy collapse and the government cuts the Military budget, DND will decide what is needed and what is not needed and could store a number of the fighters thereby cutting the cost. If 10 F-35's crash over the next 10 years, the pilots and support crews and operational cost will not be necessary for the following 10 year thereby cutting 1/6 of remaining costs.

This is the exact same method that the Conservatives used for the NSPS yet not a peep from the opposition even though it is 19billion dollars more expensive.

[punked]

This is the exact same method that the Conservatives used for the NSPS yet not a peep from the opposition even though it is 19billion dollars more expensive.

Maybe because NSPS went through a fair and open bidding process where we can all open the report and see why each yard was rewarded the project. Remind me more about the bidding process the f35 went through? Show me that report.

Edited April 15, 2012 by punked

[Signals.Cpl]

Maybe because NSPS went through a fair and open bidding process where we can all open the report and see why each yard was rewarded the project. Remind me more about the bidding process the f35 went through? Show me that report.

What does the 11billion extra have to do with the bidding process? the war cry we were lied to is changing to we didn't have a choice. So if the conservatives were to open the bidding process the 11 billion will be irrelevant?

[Guest Derek L]

Why pick and choose? Why doesn't the NDP bring forward that the NSPS did not follow the rules? When the 33 billion dollar price tag for CG and RCN vessels doubles at the very least then the contract is going to be eliminated, but then again so are the jobs that so many Canadians will be getting from the project and thus will eliminate the NDP's chance for leading the government. If you are going to use the criteria on the F-35's then make sure you go back and use it on any and every project since the policy came in to effect. I wonder why the NDP is not interested in the NSPS, any Ideas?

I wonder the same………Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that two of the three yards are in ridings (and not including surrounding ridings) held by the NDP……….

[Guest Derek L]

Maybe because NSPS went through a fair and open bidding process where we can all open the report and see why each yard was rewarded the project. Remind me more about the bidding process the f35 went through? Show me that report.

Are you suggesting the NDP isn’t interested in the full costing of the ships? Those lifecycle numbers have yet been provided for this program……..Could it be because the NDP doesn’t want to alienate thousands of union trade workers?

[punked]

Are you suggesting the NDP isn’t interested in the full costing of the ships? Those lifecycle numbers have yet been provided for this program……..Could it be because the NDP doesn’t want to alienate thousands of union trade workers?

I am suggesting that being open and transparent in what you are doing will make it so that opposition does not get angry about what you are buying yes. However hiding what you are doing, not opening the books will make them want to know everything about a project.

[Signals.Cpl]

I am suggesting that being open and transparent in what you are doing will make it so that opposition does not get angry about what you are buying yes. However hiding what you are doing, not opening the books will make them want to know everything about a project.

So if the project went to the bidding process the 11 billion will not be any interest anymore and the cost of the Fighters will be back down to 14.5billion?

[Guest Derek L]

I am suggesting that being open and transparent in what you are doing will make it so that opposition does not get angry about what you are buying yes. However hiding what you are doing, not opening the books will make them want to know everything about a project.

Oh, ok, so you know the full costing of the national shipbuilding program? I haven’t a clue and would be interested in seeing what this program will cost…..

[Guest Derek L]

So if the project went to the bidding process the 11 billion will not be any interest anymore and the cost of the Fighters will be back down to 14.5billion?

To add, and if the JSF is selected , you’ll be fine with that?

[punked]

Oh, ok, so you know the full costing of the national shipbuilding program? I haven’t a clue and would be interested in seeing what this program will cost…..

My problem has always been that parliament asked for the costing and to open all the books and the Conservatives pretended the didn't exist. When the AG pointed this out you guys attacked the AG instead of your party who was hiding the books.

The only way you can fix that for me is if you go back in time. So if the Conservatives invent a time machine and go back and do the right thing the problem will be fixed.

Edited April 15, 2012 by punked

[eyeball]

I don't see why all the fuss over the F-35 while no fuss for something that costs 19billion more.

I'd like to see a lot more fuss over these stupid ships too. The only need I see for military ships is to use them to sink the DFO's ships. I wouldn't let Ottawa manage a fish barbecue never mind an ocean or a fishery.

[DogOnPorch]

Pilot: Well it's off to the next third-world trouble spot in Canada's brand new F-35s!

Ground Crew 1: Hang on major. The Chief didn't get your money order.

Pilot: Money order?

Ground Crew 2: Yeah...for the operating costs. Ever since the Liberal/NDP coalition got in, pilots have to pay for their own deployment, fuel and weapon purchases.

Pilot: You're kidding!

Ground Crew 1: Nope...not kidding. Ever since former PM Harper took in a baseball game using a government jet, the Liberals and NDP have been claiming this is the only way to end corruption.

Edited April 15, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[Guest Derek L]

My problem has always been that parliament asked for the costing and to open all the books and the Conservatives pretended the didn't exist. When the AG pointed this out you guys attacked the AG instead of your party who was hiding the books.

The only way you can fix that for me is if you go back in time. So if the Conservatives invent a time machine and go back and do the right thing the problem will be fixed.

So, if the process becomes transparent enough for your standards, and it still selects the F-35, you’re not ok with the purchase sans a time machine?

Or let’s say, the NDP wins in 2015 and allows a competition and the F-35 wins, you’d rather a different selection due to partisan optics?

[Signals.Cpl]

My problem has always been that parliament asked for the costing and to open all the books and the Conservatives pretended the didn't exist. When the AG pointed this out you guys attacked the AG instead of your party who was hiding the books.

The only way you can fix that for me is if you go back in time. So if the Conservatives invent a time machine and go back and do the right thing the problem will be fixed.

So...The Conservatives "didn't tell you" about the costs of the F-35 and you are angry while at the same time the Conservatives "didn't tell you" about the costs of the NSPS yet you don't care.

You can't call them liars for using this method to purchase aircraft when you don't care the method they use to purchase ships. Either all purchases use the same criteria or none of them use that criteria. Insisting that the Conservatives "tell the truth" about this project while ignoring all other project is dishonest and for the opposition to not care about the NSPS which costs 19billion more is hypocritical.