GostHacked Posted February 28, 2012 Report Posted February 28, 2012 Perhaps, but not in the way you mean, GH. This is not some moral contest, where there is some judge somewhere who says if one side committed a foul then the other side gets a free one. One side is already crying foul for something they have not even done, and might never do. This is realpolitik. Some countries perform military actions because they want to and others because they feel they have to. There is a very real difference! Do you think the invasion of Iraq was necessary? Maybe it should be done again because of the amount of terrorism STILL going on in Iraq. A major terror attack happens there weekly now. But they are 'free' right? Despite the constant carping from the anti-American "peanut gallery", Uncle Sam has rarely been the military aggressor in the last 100 years. A business aggressor, perhaps but not a military one. Rather, America usually has become involved either because some ally was attacked or in the case of Europe, the incumbent countries wanted Uncle Sam to foot the tab. Explain Iraq to me then. Specifically the second invasion. And for the cost, Libya was something the Italians and the French started, but quickly bowed out (as been their course of action for many conflicts) and let NATO handle it. There was no threat coming from Libya, yet they got bombed, and DU now litters the landscape, as in Iraq. (A-10 Warthogs and other craft use depleted uranium rounds, cancers will be on the rise in Libya. Iran simply does not have the equivalent moral stature on the world stage as the USA. Get your head out of the sand. The US can in no way claim the high road, or moral stature. Again, the lies leading up to Iraq are the exact fucking same as the bullshit we are hearing now by the SAME entities that wanted to go into Iran. Remember, it was a POLICY of the USA for regime change in Iraq regardless of what you were told on the media. Not even most of its Arab neighbours think Iran is a Boy Scout! They know better than we do what the ruling mullahs in Irah are capable of doing and many are quietly assisting America and its allies behind the scenes. The last thing those other Arab countries want is for Iran to have the Bomb! Iran is no boy scout, but the ones who are claiming to be the real boy scouts are not real boy scouts anyways. Remember, Iran is not developing nuclear weapons so that it can serve as a counterbalance for all Arab and Muslim nations! It wants them so that Iran will become the greatest power in that part of the world! Kuwait, Bahrain, Jordan and even the Saudis will have to dance to Iran's tune. According to one CIA assessment as of late, Iran has not made the decision to build a nuclear weapon. The CIA says they are not, maybe the chickenhawks did not get the memo. So this is not some tit for tat morality play, GH. Iran has very few friends and is considered a threat by almost all other countries except China and Russia, who want money! Iran is not a threat, because Iran will get invaded first. The other thing is that the threat is made to Israel specifically. Let Israel handle it. And let Israel suffer the consequences. No need to drag the USA into all this. I sure as hell don't want Canada involved. Either with this situation or Syria, you are looking at the possibility of another world war. Do you really want to light that match? Do you really understand what is going on here? It's not about a nuclear program. It's not about threats, it's about resources, and oil is one of them. You see it in the US media about "omg why is the gas price going up??' .... 5 bucks a gallon?? INVADE IRAN FOR CHEAP OIL. You make it sound like America or Israel performing a first strike on Iran is some sort of bullying recreational exercise. It is nothing of the kind! Iran is considered a serious threat and a first strike is simply another option to remove it. You've seen what Israel has done before. Preemptive strikes on Iraq AND Syria's nuclear projects. But it's not just the USA and Israel. NATO goes into Libya to help supply the rebels (and Al-Queda is among them), but yet the uprisings in Bahrian were squashed by the Saudis with the US's approval. Why?? Bahrain hosts the USA's 5th Fleet. The protests in Libya and Bahrain were the same. The people wanted to get rid of the corrupt governments. And Iran is less of a totalitarian regime than the freakin Saudis. Iran may have moved to a more Islamic based society, as of late (mainly due to actions of others some 50 years ago). But Saudi Arabia has ALWAYS been a strict Sharia based Islamic rule. Morals? Pffffffff. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 28, 2012 Report Posted February 28, 2012 WB:This is not some moral contest... GH: Morals? Pffffffff. Misread his post? I think so. GH: According to one CIA assessment as of late, Iran has not made the decision to build a nuclear weapon. The CIA says they are not, maybe the chickenhawks did not get the memo. Oh yeah? What is meant by 'build a nuclear weapon' in your world? Iran has all the parts needed. Some assembly required. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted February 28, 2012 Report Posted February 28, 2012 Oh yeah? What is meant by 'build a nuclear weapon' in your world? Iran has all the parts needed. Some assembly required. Without talking to the thousands already in existence and a good majority owned by the same people that want to prevent Iran from getting one?? And again even the CIA has indicated they have no credible evidence that they are pursuing one. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/25/world/middleeast/us-agencies-see-no-move-by-iran-to-build-a-bomb.html WASHINGTON — Even as the United Nations’ nuclear watchdog said in a new report Friday that Iran had accelerated its uranium enrichment program, American intelligence analysts continue to believe that there is no hard evidence that Iran has decided to build a nuclear bomb. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/23/world/la-fg-iran-intel-20120224 Reporting from Washington — As U.S. and Israeli officials talk publicly about the prospect of a military strike against Iran's nuclear program, one fact is often overlooked: U.S. intelligence agencies don't believe Iran is actively trying to build an atomic bomb.A highly classified U.S. intelligence assessment circulated to policymakers early last year largely affirms that view, originally made in 2007. Both reports, known as national intelligence estimates, conclude that Tehran halted efforts to develop and build a nuclear warhead in 2003. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 28, 2012 Report Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Can you describe on of these Israeli nuclear devices for me since you have all the info? No? Why not? And again even the CIA has indicated they have no credible evidence that they are pursuing one. What part of Iran's energy program is this used for? Edited February 28, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted February 28, 2012 Report Posted February 28, 2012 Can you describe on of these Israeli nuclear devices for me since you have all the info? No? Why not? Are you conveniently not mentioning the USA hoping for a 'gotcha' moment? Too predictable. But sure ... some reading for you. http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/ http://www.haaretz.com/news/egypt-urges-un-monitor-israel-nuclear-program-1.7395 http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/19/iaea-conference-criticizes-israels-nuclear-program/ What part of Iran's energy program is this used for? Who is correct, the intelligence services for saying they are not. Or is the media lying saying that Iran is. Can't have it both ways Dog. I cannot currently watch the video from work, I'll watch it later and give you more. Quote
dre Posted February 28, 2012 Report Posted February 28, 2012 Who is correct, the intelligence services for saying they are not. Or is the media lying saying that Iran is. Can't have it both ways Dog. Generally how it works is like this... 1. Intelligence services with very little in the way of real human intelligence take wild unsubstantiated guesses about stuff. 2. The Civilian leaders then tell whatever outright lies are necessary to support their agenda. 4. The media faithfully parrots the afformentioned lies. 5. Enough stupid people believe them, that a sort of "political support" emerges. Every case is a little different but that describes the fundamental relationship between intelligence, the government, the media, and the people. Glad I could help! Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted February 28, 2012 Report Posted February 28, 2012 GH: I cannot currently watch the video from work, I'll watch it later and give you more. It's one of Iran's newer rockets capable of putting a payload into orbit. Iran is expanding its atomic program plus working on ICBMs. To most, that is darn suspicious. But, I understand some folks like to see things from a best case scenario. Sure, the U-235 is for energy and Iran just wants an active space program. Israel can not afford the above luxury of thinking that way. Are you conveniently not mentioning the USA hoping for a 'gotcha' moment? Too predictable. But sure ... some reading for you. America hasn't given Israel the Bomb. Plus, I wanted your description...not some links. Perhaps when you have more time... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted February 28, 2012 Report Posted February 28, 2012 Generally how it works is like this... 1. Intelligence services with very little in the way of real human intelligence take wild unsubstantiated guesses about stuff. 2. The Civilian leaders then tell whatever outright lies are necessary to support their agenda. 4. The media faithfully parrots the afformentioned lies. 5. Enough stupid people believe them, that a sort of "political support" emerges. Every case is a little different but that describes the fundamental relationship between intelligence, the government, the media, and the people. Glad I could help! Well, I know you'd just love a nuclear armed Iran out of your weird sense of 'fair play'; but, as the ol' proliferation equation goes: More nations with The Bomb = More chances of them being used. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) A well known proliferation calculator: http://www.nukefix.org/index.htm Edited February 29, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 America hasn't given Israel the Bomb. Nope, but the America might give Iran one or two! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Nope, but the America might give Iran one or two! Deep penetrators or merely lay-down B61s? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Nope, but the America might give Iran one or two! Mind you, Edmund Teller did suggest to Israel that high tech Plutonium devices were the way to go rather than yer 'primitive' shot-plug weapon. Did they listen? Who knows? Not even Mordechai Vanunu. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Do any of you actually want war? Do any of you actually want people killed? Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Do any of you actually want war? Do any of you actually want people killed? It's not that simple, GH. There is a real belief that the mullahs ruling Iran want to kill Jews. Others would rather see the mullahs killed first! It is human nature to take satisfaction from seeing a bully get punished. In the circles supporting action against Iran, Iran is seen as a bully and also a religious fanatic. You are never going to get those people to have any sympathy for Iran unless you can show that impression is wrong. Your task is continually made more difficult by Iran itself. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
GostHacked Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 It's not that simple, GH. There is a real belief that the mullahs ruling Iran want to kill Jews. Others would rather see the mullahs killed first! A belief, not substantiated in facts. It is human nature to take satisfaction from seeing a bully get punished. In the circles supporting action against Iran, Iran is seen as a bully and also a religious fanatic. Iran a bully? To who? Seems to me we have the USA and Israel doing most of the bullying. Not to mention the current covert war against Iran, (Iranian guard sites, nuke sites, ect ect, scientists being assassinated)... Can you ignore those facts and say that Iran is the bully? Sure, but you would be wrong. You are never going to get those people to have any sympathy for Iran unless you can show that impression is wrong. Your task is continually made more difficult by Iran itself. No it's not, it's made easier by the rhetoric and their recent actions inside Iran coming out of the USA and Israel. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 The Great Satan and the Little Satan. They're not brave freedom fighters like your beloved Hamas and Hezbollah. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
kactus Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 A belief, not substantiated in facts. Iran a bully? To who? Seems to me we have the USA and Israel doing most of the bullying. Not to mention the current covert war against Iran, (Iranian guard sites, nuke sites, ect ect, scientists being assassinated)... Can you ignore those facts and say that Iran is the bully? Sure, but you would be wrong. No it's not, it's made easier by the rhetoric and their recent actions inside Iran coming out of the USA and Israel. I think the whole positioning and language that emanates here is misleading. It is formed on the basis that them meaning iRan and the muslim world from the East are evil and WE meaning the west that would include Israel can hold the high moral ground of doing whatever act we deem necessary under the pre text of self defense! Yes any act by whatever means we feel is justified even it means killing innocent civilians... Afterall, why should the west care about leaders of these countries when their leaders have been running these countries for decades...Saddam, Gaddaffi and the list goes on. But heaven forbid let's not talk about other dictators like Mugabe... So the question remains why should the people of these "evil countries" have any faith in the REAL motives of foreign invaders when they inherit a puppet democracy style government installed in their country backed by western governments? Quote
GostHacked Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 I think the whole positioning and language that emanates here is misleading. It is formed on the basis that them meaning iRan and the muslim world from the East are evil and WE meaning the west that would include Israel can hold the high moral ground of doing whatever act we deem necessary under the pre text of self defense! Yes any act by whatever means we feel is justified even it means killing innocent civilians... Afterall, why should the west care about leaders of these countries when their leaders have been running these countries for decades...Saddam, Gaddaffi and the list goes on. But heaven forbid let's not talk about other dictators like Mugabe... So the question remains why should the people of these "evil countries" have any faith in the REAL motives of foreign invaders when they inherit a puppet democracy style government installed in their country backed by western governments? Good points and I have eluded to some of that in other threads as well. The west is putting new leaders in all over the place, replacing the ones they put in a long time ago. The West's actions and rhetoric through much of this Arab spring has been inconsistent to say the least. Quote
dre Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 There is a real belief that the mullahs ruling Iran want to kill Jews. show that impression is wrong. Then how come they suck so bad at it? Iran has 25-30 thousand Jews living right there in Iran easy targets. 7 have been executed since the Iranian revolution compared to hundreds of muslims. Whats the hold up? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bud Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Then how come they suck so bad at it? Iran has 25-30 thousand Jews living right there in Iran easy targets. 7 have been executed since the Iranian revolution compared to hundreds of muslims. Whats the hold up? this point and many other rational points have been raised to wild bill but he does not have the ability to deal with them. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
DogOnPorch Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Iran is Jew Heaven. Right, buuuuuuuddy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Iran Edited February 29, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
kactus Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Then how come they suck so bad at it? Iran has 25-30 thousand Jews living right there in Iran easy targets. 7 have been executed since the Iranian revolution compared to hundreds of muslims. Whats the hold up? Well said...! Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Well said...! There was once many more Jews in Iran than the few left today. Most are in the US or Israel. Now why did they leave Iran? The weather didn't suit them? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Perhaps, but not in the way you mean, GH. This is not some moral contest, where there is some judge somewhere who says if one side committed a foul then the other side gets a free one. This is realpolitik. Some countries perform military actions because they want to and others because they feel they have to. There is a very real difference! Despite the constant carping from the anti-American "peanut gallery", Uncle Sam has rarely been the military aggressor in the last 100 years. A business aggressor, perhaps but not a military one. Rather, America usually has become involved either because some ally was attacked or in the case of Europe, the incumbent countries wanted Uncle Sam to foot the tab. While have no interest in the Islamofascist wacko's in Tehran,this little missive above simply cannot go unchallenged in the cold light of history... You said... "...Uncle Sam has rarely been the military agressor in the last 100 years." This is true,but,it's because they got the US State Dept. Right Wing prop up proxies to do it for them! Let's play cards! http://friendlydictators.blogspot.com/ What we have seen in Iran,since the Mossadiq CIA/BP sponsored coup,is the inevitable blowback of shortsighted Cold War foreign policy... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 There was once many more Jews in Iran than the few left today. Most are in the US or Israel. Now why did they leave Iran? The weather didn't suit them? Perhaps the NAZIlike rhetoric made them a little queezy?? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
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