Bin Laden's advice to children

[DogOnPorch]

oh please, I never said he didn't "serve"... he just didn't "serve", conveniently, in Vietnam. Why I've posted a pic of his... daring (/snarc)... Mission Accomplished landing a few times around here, so I obviously know of his vaunted flight prowess - something about that codpiece, hey? In any case, clearly, the Dubya purposely avoided Vietnam with the Guard sign-up... and, in spite of a large contingent of the Air Guard actually being deployed to Vietnam, Bush never made it there that way either - go figure. Are you saying you're quite comfortable with all the post 72 service gaps/discrepancies of the oft described "AWOL Bush"?

as for Jeb "the next one" Bush, again, he had a rather low number - many others older than "the next one" were drafted and went to Vietnam... but not the Jeb - go figure.

Had GWB been sent to Viet-Nam, he wouldn't have done anything anyways as the F-102 was used for Southern air defence only...the North never sent its planes south. Also, by 1971, National Guard air units were being withdrawn from Viet-Nam. So there was little chance of being sent if any. Bush was in the top 5% of his class mind you. So, like it or not, he's a good pilot.

Edited February 13, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[waldo]

Had GWB been sent to Viet-Nam, he wouldn't have done anything anyways as the F-102 was used for Southern air defence only...the North never sent its planes south. Also, by 1971, National Guard air units were being withdrawn from Viet-Nam. So there was little chance of being sent if any. Bush was in the top 5% of his class mind you. So, like it or not, he's a good pilot.

well, is there really a need to highlight Bush's preferred means of escaping Vietnam meant he didn't need to get down & dirty in the mud/jungle... cause that's for jarheads and foot-soldiers, hey? I understand there was a shortage of air-force pilots; that's what necessitated the deployment of the ANG units in the first place. I read suggestion Bush could have managed one of those standard 6 month rotations prior to the eventual removal of all F-102s back 'stateside'. In any case, I also read that 15 F-102s were lost in Vietnam... including 3 shot down, 1 lost in air-to-air combat and 7 accidents. In any case, that still would have been much better odds for Dubya than slogging through rice paddies! As for Bush's supposed "good pilot" abilities, I could drop links to several websites that say otherwise and you'd properly challenge them... for now, I'll just let the doofus' documented public life rub up against that so-called "good pilot" designation - i.e., who'd a thunk it?

[DogOnPorch]

Insinuate what you'd like. There were SAM-7s in use in the South which did take down the odd aircraft and chopper. I understand you'd have liked Bush to have had the whole 'Platoon' experience complete with Sgt Barnes trying to kill him. But, no matter. GWB came to age late in that period and there was little chance of him actually getting sent to Viet-Nam during the great Nixon Pull-out. Troop strength topped around 1968-69. Try as you might. It is hard to re-write history to suit your purposes. So stop it.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think Diefenbaker was pissed at the US government for being bossed around

it was personal feelings getting in the way of national security

I agree....Dief was behind the conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy no doubt.

[Topaz]

Had GWB been sent to Viet-Nam, he wouldn't have done anything anyways as the F-102 was used for Southern air defence only...the North never sent its planes south. Also, by 1971, National Guard air units were being withdrawn from Viet-Nam. So there was little chance of being sent if any. Bush was in the top 5% of his class mind you. So, like it or not, he's a good pilot.

That may be true, but GW had a alcohol and drug problem and his daddy got him into a Rehab and after the cleanout he went to work for a family friend in politics. He didn't acutally finish his term but Daddy pulled some strings and out him out of national guard and of course as the Bushes do they destroyed any evidence.

[Topaz]

Here's the question and here's the answer about GW AWOL..... http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2446/did-george-w-bush-go-awol-during-his-time-in-the-national-guard

[Guest Derek L]

oh please, I never said he didn't "serve"... he just didn't "serve", conveniently, in Vietnam. Why I've posted a pic of his... daring (/snarc)... Mission Accomplished landing a few times around here, so I obviously know of his vaunted flight prowess - something about that codpiece, hey? In any case, clearly, the Dubya purposely avoided Vietnam with the Guard sign-up... and, in spite of a large contingent of the Air Guard actually being deployed to Vietnam, Bush never made it there that way either - go figure. Are you saying you're quite comfortable with all the post 72 service gaps/discrepancies of the oft described "AWOL Bush"?

as for Jeb "the next one" Bush, again, he had a rather low number - many others with higher numbers than "the next one" were drafted and went to Vietnam... but not the Jeb - go figure.

Hundreds of thousands of other military personal, from all the other branches, also didn’t serve in Vietnam…….During the late 60s, Vietnam wasn’t the sole concern of the United States………As for the mentioned “gaps in service”, as mentioned in your link, during his first two years he served above the required norm for National Guard, part time, service……….then moved to go work on a political campaign.

As for the “conspiracy” you allude to with Jeb, as I already stated, due to his age, once he became eligible for service in Vietnam, the Americans were already pulling out….

[Guest Derek L]

well, is there really a need to highlight Bush's preferred means of escaping Vietnam meant he didn't need to get down & dirty in the mud/jungle... cause that's for jarheads and foot-soldiers, hey? I understand there was a shortage of air-force pilots; that's what necessitated the deployment of the ANG units in the first place. I read suggestion Bush could have managed one of those standard 6 month rotations prior to the eventual removal of all F-102s back 'stateside'. In any case, I also read that 15 F-102s were lost in Vietnam... including 3 shot down, 1 lost in air-to-air combat and 7 accidents. In any case, that still would have been much better odds for Dubya than slogging through rice paddies! As for Bush's supposed "good pilot" abilities, I could drop links to several websites that say otherwise and you'd properly challenge them... for now, I'll just let the doofus' documented public life rub up against that so-called "good pilot" designation - i.e., who'd a thunk it?

All F-102 losses were during the earlier part of the Vietnam war, when “W” would still have been in grade school and University…….

[DogOnPorch]

All F-102 losses were during the earlier part of the Vietnam war, when “W” would still have been in grade school and University…….

I remember a Life Magazine around 1965* with the arrival of the F-102s in theater being highlighted. I recall thinking it rather useless then as I do now. I doubt a MiG-21 could make it from RoutePack 6 to the SVN border on a tank o' gaz.

*Feb. 26th, 1966 to be exact.

Edited February 13, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[Guest Derek L]

I remember a Life Magazine around 1965* with the arrival of the F-102s in theater being highlighted. I recall thinking it rather useless then as I do now. I doubt a MiG-21 could make it from RoutePack 6 to the SVN border on a tank o' gaz.

*Feb. 26th, 1966 to be exact.

Indeed, the deployment of earlier fighter types like the F-102, F-100, Voodoo and Crusader clearly demonstrated their shortcomings, which were clearly addressed once the Phantom began to deploy in numbers with the USAF, USN and USMC.

[DogOnPorch]

Yeah...the F-4E fixed that.

[bush_cheney2004]

That may be true, but GW had a alcohol and drug problem and his daddy got him into a Rehab and after the cleanout he went to work for a family friend in politics.

Nothing unusual about that for members of the military or civilian sector, then or now. Fact is Bush is still a US military veteran...and a two term president despite his previous problems with substance abuse.

[waldo]

Here's the question and here's the answer about GW AWOL..... http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2446/did-george-w-bush-go-awol-during-his-time-in-the-national-guard

oh my - c'mon... that reflects a column from that well known (syndicated) alternative rag; granted, it does highlight those inconvenient Boston Globe pursuits.

[waldo]

As for the “conspiracy” you allude to with Jeb, as I already stated, due to his age, once he became eligible for service in Vietnam, the Americans were already pulling out….

wow! Jeb "the next one" Bush should hire you - you could work to have all those numerous references out there squashed; the one's "supposedly" written by Vietnam veterans contrasting their birth dates and service record to JBush's not-so-much.

[waldo]

Insinuate what you'd like. There were SAM-7s in use in the South which did take down the odd aircraft and chopper. I understand you'd have liked Bush to have had the whole 'Platoon' experience complete with Sgt Barnes trying to kill him. But, no matter. GWB came to age late in that period and there was little chance of him actually getting sent to Viet-Nam during the great Nixon Pull-out. Troop strength topped around 1968-69. Try as you might. It is hard to re-write history to suit your purposes. So stop it.

the insinuation was yours... suggesting even if Bush served he would have had little likelihood of any "action". I simply highlighted the actual losses of the plane he is said to have been flight-worthy in. I also didn't say anything about the oft stated string pulling that got him into the ANG in the first place... or the convenient assignment to the F-102, the least likely plane to be engaged in a call-up... or how he got his rank without actually having to deal with the troublesome Officer Candidate School... or how he stopped going for required physicals that inconveniently coincides with the introduction of mandatory drug testing... or how he didn't complete his full sign-up commitment... or how there appear to be so many discrepancies in his service records... etc. I didn't say anything about any of that, no sir.

I'm certainly not re-writing any history - you, on the other hand, are taking extra steps in accommodation. By the by, what's to say he couldn't have flown support for the secret bombings into Cambodia and Laos... you know, the secret ones! In any case, what's the big deal - according to this much hyped quote, he's "seen war"! => "I've been to war [sic]. I've raised twins. If I had a choice, I'd rather go to war." Which war was that, anyway?

[DogOnPorch]

Bombing the rat-piss out of Laos and Cambodia's border regions was the only smart thing done in that war. Invasion was the answer...but the public had a distorted view as to the objectives when invasion was tried.

As for Bush going to Viet-Nam, it matters little to me and I doubt you. I can accept you'd have liked all people of his ilk to serve on the frontlines. But, life isn't fair and I doubt we'll be living in a socialist paradise anytime soon. So the average soldier will be like he's always been. A grunt. I'll point out, too, that MANY privileged folks on BOTH sides of the political spectrum enjoyed deferment. Not just rich Republicans.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... I'll point out, too, that MANY privileged folks on BOTH sides of the political spectrum enjoyed deferment. Not just rich Republicans.

Even when they do serve, they still get ripped (e.g. John McCain). Their political motivation belies any attempt at a balanced view of the Vietnam era. George H. W. Bush lost to "draft dodger" Bill Clinton, but his son defeated two Vietnam "war heroes" in subsequent elections. Go figure....

[waldo]

As for Bush going to Viet-Nam, it matters little to me and I doubt you. I can accept you'd have liked all people of his ilk to serve on the frontlines. But, life isn't fair and I doubt we'll be living in a socialist paradise anytime soon. So the average soldier will be like he's always been. A grunt. I'll point out, too, that MANY privileged folks on BOTH sides of the political spectrum enjoyed deferment. Not just rich Republicans.

I did suggest there were Chickenhawks on both sides... while emphasizing a disproportionate number aligns with the GOP. My only targeting was the Chickenhawks and I mentioned several prominent names - only the Bushies solicited feedback. I was sure someone would have taken up the 5 deferment poster-boy, Cheney... or Bush's brain, Rove even! No takers on those though. Why, I expect to next read someone banging the swiftboat drum, ya think?

[DogOnPorch]

Even when they do serve, they still get ripped (e.g. John McCain). Their political motivation belies any attempt at a balanced view of the Vietnam era. George H. W. Bush lost to "draft dodger" Bill Clinton, but his son defeated two Vietnam "war heroes" in subsequent elections. Go figure....

Yup. Had Bush been a tad older and an F-105 pilot, some would have branded him a baby killer. But, it seems in this case it's wondered why he didn't break formation over Texas, fly to The Nam and rain fire down on Charlie on his own. You can not win this version of the game.

[DogOnPorch]

I did suggest there were Chickenhawks on both sides... while emphasizing a disproportionate number aligns with the GOP. My only targeting was the Chickenhawks and I mentioned several prominent names - only the Bushies solicited feedback. I was sure someone would have taken up the 5 deferment poster-boy, Cheney... or Bush's brain, Rove even! No takers on those though. Why, I expect to next read someone banging the swiftboat drum, ya think?

Unlike you, I seem more interested in Viet-Nam as history rather than a political soap box. I care not for Rove or Cheney one bit. But, I do not wish them any particular ill-will, either.

[DogOnPorch]

Then there's you, BC-2004, languishing inside a Boomer while the world goes to Hell all around you. Why didn't you solve the Cold War on your own?

[bush_cheney2004]

Unlike you, I seem more interested in Viet-Nam as history rather than a political soap box. I care not for Rove or Cheney one bit. But, I do not wish them any particular ill-will, either.

Wait...it gets funnier. The same partisan ilk will point to Dick Cheney's SecDef brilliance for not going into Iraq the first time around.

[bush_cheney2004]

Then there's you, BC-2004, languishing inside a Boomer while the world goes to Hell all around you. Why didn't you solve the Cold War on your own?

Because I would have been shot dead with a M1911 .45 ACP. It takes at least two people to end the world.

[DogOnPorch]

Because I would have been shot dead with a M1911 .45 ACP. It takes at least two people to end the world.

Perhaps some should take that to heart re: the military. Cog in a wheel.

[Wild Bill]

1. Korean Air Lines Flight 007. Soviets shot down a South Korea passenger plane killing 269 passengers because the pilots wouldn't respond to their warnings so the Soviets figured it was a hostile. The U.S media played the audio and cut off the part where the Soviets were trying to talk to the pilots and make sure they're not hostiles. The world had thought the Soviets deliberately shot down a passenger plane thanks to the U.S manipulation.

Once again your youth betrays you. One of my personal friends died on that flight. I remember the reports at the time vividly.

One point that puts the lie to your story is that apparently it was common knowledge at the time that the Russian pilots COULD NOT talk to a commercial airliner!

There is a standard emergency frequency. If memory serves I believe it is 121.5 mhz but I'm sure if necessary there are enough pilots on MLW to correct me. All pilots of aircraft all over the world could use this frequency EXCEPT Russian military pilots!

Their radios were only equipped with their own military frequencies. This was believed to be a deliberate act to help deter any of their pilots from defecting to the West, which still happened a few times anyway.

Somewhere in Heaven my friend Larry is laughing at you!