So does this make your blood boil?

[August1991]

A quick read through this thread. Maybe I missed something.

This is not like Abu Ghraib. That was about torture and humiliation of live prisoners.

These guys are dead. Presumably they were trying to kill these soldiers before they died.

Huh?

We are fighting people from the medieval ages. If our guys urinate on the dead bodies, that's just an expression of our guys frustration. It will accomplish nothing.

I think our guys should chop off the heads of dead guys and post them on stakes. I'm sorry if I sound crude/uncivilized but we are dealing with tough people from a different millenia.

-----

Have you been following the Kingston trial? Shafi and his second wife are "enlightened" Afghans.

IMV, we must show all Afghans (Pushtu, Tadjik etc) that they can live as they want but that we Westerners will not tolerate people who live among them and then attack us.

Afghanistan should return to the 9th century and find its own way to the 21st century. It is only a threat to us because it gave safe harbour to bin Laden and his followers.

Edited January 16, 2012 by August1991

[cybercoma]

This thread is about a disrespectful act carried out by a few, perhaps we should talk about terrorism, honor killing, stoning, acid attacks, sodomizing young boys, beheading, and who knows what else, but no, lets focus on a few corpses getting pissed on, as disrespectful as that is.

Just like your gun control arguments, you make no sense, hey lets talk about the man of middle eastern defense who had an abusive middle eastern father, the man who killed 14 women and spawned this whole gun control argument, but no, lets ignore the reality of what that person was, lets focus on the gun he used.

Lets not talk about the terrible practices performed by members of the Taliban, lets condemn the whole army for something a few idiots did to a corpse, perfectly reasonable, in your mind.

Do you know what makes no sense? Saying that the horrible acts of the American military are ok because worse things happen in the world. It's like excusing a rapist because at least he didn't murder her and mutilate the corpse.

[DogOnPorch]

He never said it was "OK".

[Guest American Woman]

Do you know what makes no sense? Saying that the horrible acts of the American military are ok....

I didn't realize the definition of "disrepstful" was "ok." Likely because it's not.

[cybercoma]

It's not ok, but let's not talk about it because there are worse things going on. That's ridiculous.

[Guest American Woman]

It's not ok, but let's not talk about it because there are worse things going on. That's ridiculous.

He didn't say let's not talk about - he said we shouldn't focus on what a few did more than we focus on what other ongoing worse things are happening. When we focus on something like this more than we do the Taliban's actions, for example, it plays into their hands. We should be outraged that they would have the gall to complain about this in light of their actions, and that's what the response should be. But no. The respone, the focus, is on the "bad U.S.," which only empowers the Taliban.

Again. Yes. This is wrong. But it's not policy, it's not practice, and it's not condoned. It was condemned. To make it out as no less morally wrong than what the Taliban is doing, less morally wrong than beheading an innocent man, is impossible to comprehend.

What's so telling to me is that this was four soldiers. Four. Yet the same people who go on and on about the actions of four soldiers, who will be dealt with, are generally the first to say "hardly any Muslims are radical! hardly any Palistinians support violence!" But have four American troops do something that's not nearly as bad morally as cutting off an innocent man's head, as treating women as nothing, as targeting an killing innocents, and "the US military is a disgrace to humanity." Those killing innocent civilians and treating women the way they are and cutting off heads aren't the disgrace to humanity, oh no - the U.S. military is because of what 4 soldiers did - when there are, indeed, a helluva lot worse things going on.

Edited January 16, 2012 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

...What's so telling to me is that this was four soldiers. Four. Yet the same people who go on and on about the actions of four soldiers, who will be dealt with, are generally the first to say "hardly any Muslims are radical! hardly any Palistinians support violence!" But have four American troops do something....

Nice...hadn't even considered that angle. Don't hurt 'em too bad!

[cybercoma]

Yeah. Four soldiers here, the abu ghraib incident there, torturing "detainees" in Guantanamo, and another soldier killing innocent Afghanis for sport.

So much for the most disciplined military on the planet. So much for your honourable fight against extremism and terrorists.

The entire image that your country works so hard to maintain is a sham. Your military is full of undisciplined animals. Your moral high-ground doesn't exist.

[bud]

Yeah. Four soldiers here, the abu ghraib incident there, torturing "detainees" in Guantanamo, and another soldier killing innocent Afghanis for sport.

So much for the most disciplined military on the planet. So much for your honourable fight against extremism and terrorists.

The entire image that your country works so hard to maintain is a sham. Your military is full of undisciplined animals. Your moral high-ground doesn't exist.

Nice...hadn't even considered that angle. Don't hurt 'em too bad!

[guyser]

The entire image that your country works so hard to maintain is a sham. Your military is full of undisciplined animals. Your moral high-ground doesn't exist.

I think you are prone to hyperbole. Ans insulting in this case.

It isnt a sham, although some people do screw the pooch and make it seem that way.

But four out of how many hundred thousand is telling us that for the most part, soldiers have restraint and Marines take their conduct oath seriously (Honour Courage and Commitment -IIRC and someone can help out here)

The moral high ground does exist because we in the west hold ourselves to the higher conduct.It aint imposed, it is assumed.

And...maybe our Canuck boys are too cheap to have the video in the camera , cuz you know more than just their guys have done the same thing.

I dont condone it at all, but FFS dont videotape it !

[bush_cheney2004]

...The entire image that your country works so hard to maintain is a sham. Your military is full of undisciplined animals. Your moral high-ground doesn't exist.

Just as I suspected....the enmity for America was always out there in the open, this just cements the deal. Far from being a fabrication of my imagination, these types loathe the instruments of power that do not advance their grand "moral" vision. I suspect he hates Canadian Forces as well, but is afraid to admit it...the Americans will do nicely instead.

Edited January 17, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

America rocks.

Ignore these idiots.

[Guest American Woman]

Yeah. Four soldiers here, the abu ghraib incident there, torturing "detainees" in Guantanamo, and another soldier killing innocent Afghanis for sport.

So much for the most disciplined military on the planet. So much for your honourable fight against extremism and terrorists.

The entire image that your country works so hard to maintain is a sham. Your military is full of undisciplined animals. Your moral high-ground doesn't exist.

Aw, come on, Cybercoma. You love us. Admit it. I know you are the Canadian in this video.

Acknowledging America's contributions from a Canadian

[cybercoma]

I think you are prone to hyperbole. Ans insulting in this case.

It isnt a sham, although some people do screw the pooch and make it seem that way.

But four out of how many hundred thousand is telling us that for the most part, soldiers have restraint and Marines take their conduct oath seriously (Honour Courage and Commitment -IIRC and someone can help out here)

The moral high ground does exist because we in the west hold ourselves to the higher conduct.It aint imposed, it is assumed.

And...maybe our Canuck boys are too cheap to have the video in the camera , cuz you know more than just their guys have done the same thing.

I dont condone it at all, but FFS dont videotape it !

The report that examined the Abu Ghraib incident determined that there was a cultural deficiency in the US military that allowed those kinds of abuses to happen.

Meanwhile, it's still going on. The problem is much larger than a few "rogue" elements. The entire purpose of the military is that there should never be any rogue elements. They're supposed to be disciplined and orderly.

[cybercoma]

Just as I suspected....the enmity for America was always out there in the open, this just cements the deal. Far from being a fabrication of my imagination, these types loathe the instruments of power that do not advance their grand "moral" vision. I suspect he hates Canadian Forces as well, but is afraid to admit it...the Americans will do nicely instead.

America is not its armed forces or government.

[cybercoma]

Aw, come on, Cybercoma. You love us.

Again... another American that seems to think their government's policies and their military's culture define them.

Well, if you want to be defined by the things I listed above, then you're worthy of contempt as well.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Well, if you want to be defined by the things I listed above, then you're worthy of contempt as well.

Fine by me...haters like you don't have the courage to wear their own nation's actions and complicities in such matters.

[Moonlight Graham]

Furthermore, if this video is authentic, it apparently involves 4 marines out of the 20,000 or so marines serving there. It's hardly representative of US troops' behavior.

True. But also, maybe a handful of Taliban throwing acid in the faces of Afghan school girls is not representative of all Taliban/Afghan insurgents? We usually think it is though, so that sort of shows that one of these incidents can make Arabs generalize about US soldiers, and how damaging these incidents, no matter how isolated, can be to US military rep across the globe.

[Moonlight Graham]

To comment on the OP: Yes it's of course a disgrace to see the soldiers do this. But I agree, we don't know what these soldiers go through, combat can make soldiers do crazy things, but it's still inexcusable and they should be punished if proved guilty as should whoever directly commands them.

[bush_cheney2004]

....but it's still inexcusable and they should be punished if proved guilty as should whoever directly commands them.

Never was excusable, as it is conduct unbecoming (UCMJ) and a violation of standing orders from their command.

[huh]

Do you know what makes no sense? Saying that the horrible acts of the American military are ok because worse things happen in the world. It's like excusing a rapist because at least he didn't murder her and mutilate the corpse.

So in your reality relativism doesn't exist? That is sort of how we measure things, you know, against other things. I did not say it was ok, you like to just make things up don't you? They shouldn't have done it, it was disrespectful, but in the grand scheme of things, it's nothing, as one can demonstrate by directly comparing it to local practices in that area.

Did you share the same outrage when american soldiers were killed, burned, mutilated, and dragged through the streets?

I suppose that was OK because they are invaders of the 'evil empire'.

I like this letter on the issue

https://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/allen-west-marines-incident-shut-your-mouth-war-hell_616699.html

[cybercoma]

Since you're all about the logical errors, the conclusions you've drawn in your post is called argument from silence. You, American Woman, and bush_cheney2004 would be well served to learn that one.

[guyser]

The report that examined the Abu Ghraib incident determined that there was a cultural deficiency in the US military that allowed those kinds of abuses to happen.

Meaning....they have disciplinary problems like the rest of western forces see from time to time?

Meanwhile, it's still going on. The problem is much larger than a few "rogue" elements. The entire purpose of the military is that there should never be any rogue elements. They're supposed to be disciplined and orderly.

They are that, but it only takes 4 idiots who thought it would be cool to videotape something pretty bad.

Look at it this way, someone , somewhere in the command of this ouitfit relaeased the tape , liely because they wanted these guys slapped down.

Mission accomplished.

[Guest American Woman]

True. But also, maybe a handful of Taliban throwing acid in the faces of Afghan school girls is not representative of all Taliban/Afghan insurgents?

Who said anything about throwing acid? Just treating them as inferior, forcing them to be covered, to not work, to not attend school, to be held responsible when they are raped, to have no rights - I would rather have my corspe urinated on than be treated as women are treated under the Taliban any day of the week. There is no comparison, and for the Taliban to be outraged over this is ironic at best.

We usually think it is though, so that sort of shows that one of these incidents can make Arabs generalize about US soldiers, and how damaging these incidents, no matter how isolated, can be to US military rep across the globe.

Let's say this is true - one is throwing acid on schoolgirls while the other is urinating on corpses. My point is, the huge difference between the acts should not be ignored. It's not "morally equal." Furthermore, the actual objection to the Taliban is justified - can you deny that? It's not just a couple of rouge members here and there acting outside of the Taliban's code of conduct, their behavior being condemned by the rest of the Taliban. Quite the opposite.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the coverage of these incidents and the reactions that we've seen here that are so damaging. It empowers the Taliban and al Qaeda and it's a great tactic on their part - they turn their enemy against each other. Makes their work so much easier. We should be presenting a united front, and when the Taliban is outraged over this, what they do should be part of the media frenzy; to ignore it is not even fair to those who suffer under their rule.

Furthermore, those who bring up every nasty incident a US soldier has ever committed to try to portray how terrible and how wide spread this problem is are hypocrites as they decry anyone who raises all of the terrorist incidents every time another makes the news as they point out that it's 'only a few.' There are two sets of rules when discussing them and discussing us (must walk on eggshells vs anything goes), and it's not doing us - or their victims, those living under their control - any good.

[Guest American Woman]

Meaning....they have disciplinary problems like the rest of western forces see from time to time?

Exactly. And as you said, this is not unique to US forces by any means.

I recall the Canadian sharp shooter, Aaron Perry, being investigated for desecrating corspses. He was cleared for lack of evidence. Which brings up the point - how stupid it is to videotape it. And why? I suppose the lack of judgement might just be further evidence of the stress they are under at the time.

I can't understand how people expect them all to be perfect at all times. It's not going to happen, especially considering the conditions they are under. Furthermore, a lot of the troops are quite young. But the bottom line is - they are human. They are not pre-programmed robots. It's not surprising that on the very rare occassion, the emotions of a few run away with them.

Edited January 17, 2012 by American Woman