First Nations ban pipelines to west coast

[Smallc]

And all you can say, smallc, is 'the laws can be changed'.

Do you really expect that to happen?

Yes, at some point it will have to change.

Do you really think that's the only solution?

Why not just accept that there's a new reality, a new way of doing business?

This isn't a new reality, it's an old nightmare. First nations people are simply people. It's time that the law reflected that.

[charter.rights]

The rights of Aboriginal Peoples in Canada have been violated for centuries. Now, and under international pressure, our laws and courts finally begin to uphold their right to benefit from activities on their traditional lands, and to have some influence in preventing destruction of the ecosystems that they depend on.

And all you can say, smallc, is 'the laws can be changed'.

Do you really expect that to happen?

Do you really think that's the only solution?

Why not just accept that there's a new reality, a new way of doing business?

Why insist on an unrealistic and oppressive course of action that would cause strife and possibly conflict?

What would you hope to achieve?

The fact is that it is highly unlikely the laws will ever be changed, since the amending process requires the consent of Canadians through the Legislatures. Especially when it comes to Aboriginal rights there is much more at stake - international law for example - that will dominate the discussions around any attempts to lessen rights. Rather, the amendment process was envisioned to provide an avenue to strengthen and consolidate rights, not abrogate them.

Then there is a doctrine in law that compels the Crown to act in the best interests of Aboriginal people. This doctrine would be violated and the entire trust of Parliament would be brought into question. For that reason alone, there would be no changes to the Constitution....that and the fact that to violate treaties would likely unleash a revolt by Aboriginal people, and Canadians and Americans that support them. I hardly doubt that Canada would have a stomach for a civil war in our own backyards.

Edited December 4, 2011 by charter.rights

[sharkman]

At the end of the day, it's all about money. The Indian peoples will give permission when the pot gets sweetened enough. End of story and a new pick up for everyone.

[fellowtraveller]

Sure, hence I asked you how it had all worked out for the Lubicon Cree. Or how about those Mohawks over a small tract of land adjacent to their reserve. How did this land negotiations go? The problem is, with the current co-dependent relationship that is currently mired in an overwhelming bureaucracy, land claims crawl.

Land claims negotioations crawl because one of the non-negotiable aspects from the feds is extinguishhment, meaning that once the deal is done- it is done. That automatically shuts down the gravy pipeline to the band and councillors, and puts the band into a situation where they are mnow accountable to band memebers and just don't ahve any white guys in suits to blame for it all. There is no motivation to settle unless and only if there is a huge pot of resource money at stake. That does not apply to the Gateway pipeline, where there are jobs and profits available, but pipelines don't have the kind of $ attached to say, extraction of resources.

But it doesn't matter anyway, you guys are putting way too much fiath and hope in 'negotiations'. If push comes to shove and it gets too expensive or too slow, they will just run the pipline(s) down existing rights of way that already go to Vancouver and the Prince Rupert area. Once it gets to a port,and it very most certainly will, there is basically f**k all First Nations will be able to do about it.

They should think about that option and what is will cost them.

It is as simple as that.

Edited December 4, 2011 by fellowtraveller

[jacee]

At the end of the day, it's all about money. The Indian peoples will give permission when the pot gets sweetened enough. End of story and a new pick up for everyone.

The company has offered native groups equity stakes in the pipeline as well as large sums of money for community development.

I don't think that's the issue here.

Edited December 4, 2011 by jacee

[cybercoma]

At the end of the day, it's all about money. The Indian peoples will give permission when the pot gets sweetened enough. End of story and a new pick up for everyone.

[Shwa]

Land claims negotioations crawl because one of the non-negotiable aspects from the feds is extinguishhment, meaning that once the deal is done- it is done. That automatically shuts down the gravy pipeline to the band and councillors, and puts the band into a situation where they are mnow accountable to band memebers and just don't ahve any white guys in suits to blame for it all. There is no motivation to settle unless and only if there is a huge pot of resource money at stake. That does not apply to the Gateway pipeline, where there are jobs and profits available, but pipelines don't have the kind of $ attached to say, extraction of resources.

If this were true, then land claims wouldn't be settled at all. So there are two parties involved as everyone knows, would you like try and answer the question again? This time, try and make sense.

But it doesn't matter anyway, you guys are putting way too much fiath and hope in 'negotiations'. If push comes to shove and it gets too expensive or too slow, they will just run the pipline(s) down existing rights of way that already go to Vancouver and the Prince Rupert area. Once it gets to a port,and it very most certainly will, there is basically f**k all First Nations will be able to do about it. They should think about that option and what is will cost them. It is as simple as that.

Which reminds me of the brilliance of this fellow: Carnac The Magnificent.

Eh, Johhny did it first dude.

[Tilter]

Another blackmail scenario.

[jacee]

Yes, at some point it will have to change.

This isn't a new reality, it's an old nightmare. First nations people are simply people. It's time that the law reflected that.

What has to change is the 'Indian' Act and the nonresponsiveness of INAC.

Forced assimilation is genocide.

As I said, totally unrealistic and illegal.

But dream on.

[Guest Manny]

First nations people are simply people. It's time that the law reflected that.

Right, so were the Jews in WWII. </sarcasm>

[jacee]

Containers leak too, if not more than a pipe.

They wouldn't if they were made properly ... ie, to DO the job.

Pipelines? Ships? Nah ... bad record ... can't trust them.

Some creative thinking needed here, new solutions.

[blueblood]

They wouldn't if they were made properly ... ie, to DO the job.

Pipelines? Ships? Nah ... bad record ... can't trust them.

Some creative thinking needed here, new solutions.

Do you know why there is a dead animal problem along the railway in the mountains, it's because the train cars leak grain. So you want expensive and time consuming containers full of oil beamed to china? They have to go on a ship.

Pipelines are the solution, it's far safer than loading a container on a flatbed and hoping for the best, do you know what a train derailment with shipping containers would do? If we did things your way, oil would be 200 dollars a barrel and we'd be in worse shape.

That's the dumbest idea of transport I've heard yet.

[jacee]

Do you know why there is a dead animal problem along the railway in the mountains, it's because the train cars leak grain. So you want expensive and time consuming containers full of oil beamed to china? They have to go on a ship.

Pipelines are the solution, it's far safer than loading a container on a flatbed and hoping for the best, do you know what a train derailment with shipping containers would do? If we did things your way, oil would be 200 dollars a barrel and we'd be in worse shape.

That's the dumbest idea of transport I've heard yet.

Well let"s just say it's not about cheap, it's only about safe ... no leaks, no spills ...

Is that possible any way it's transported?

[blueblood]

Well let"s just say it's not about cheap, it's only about safe ... no leaks, no spills ...

Is that possible any way it's transported?

But it has to be cheap otherwise we all end up in the poorhouse. That's a big reason we had growth in the late 19th century, no red tape.

[Bonam]

Is that possible any way it's transported?

Yes. You can invest as much as you want in safety, and that will make it safer (up to a point anyway). But at the same time, you have to compete with other producers of oil. If your oil is so expensive that you can't make any profit at the price that oil sells for around the world, then there is no point carrying out the project, because you will incur a loss rather than make a profit. Canadian producers already face a steep uphill battle, for several reasons: oil sands are more expensive to develop and extract oil from than normal oil reserves, Canadian labor is expensive compared to many nations where oil is produced, and Canada has more red tape than most other nations where oil is produced. If, additionally, oil companies had to build triple-layered armored robotically self-repairing indestructible diamond-plated titanium pipelines for $1billion/km, the oil would just stay in the ground.

[jacee]

Yes. You can invest as much as you want in safety, and that will make it safer (up to a point anyway). But at the same time, you have to compete with other producers of oil. If your oil is so expensive that you can't make any profit at the price that oil sells for around the world, then there is no point carrying out the project, because you will incur a loss rather than make a profit. Canadian producers already face a steep uphill battle, for several reasons: oil sands are more expensive to develop and extract oil from than normal oil reserves, Canadian labor is expensive compared to many nations where oil is produced, and Canada has more red tape than most other nations where oil is produced. If, additionally, oil companies had to build triple-layered armored robotically self-repairing indestructible diamond-plated titanium pipelines for $1billion/km, the oil would just stay in the ground.

Now yer talkin!

[jacee]

But it has to be cheap otherwise we all end up in the poorhouse. That's a big reason we had growth in the late 19th century, no red tape.

Ahh ... "red tape" ... like safety standards?

If you can't transport it cheaply ... it just isn't feasible ?... so we're just supposed to put up with the damage from leaks and spills?

I think most of us are with the First Nations when it comes to leaks and spills. This has to be a new age, new technologies ... no excuse for shoddy work.

Edited December 5, 2011 by jacee

[eyeball]

But it has to be cheap otherwise we all end up in the poorhouse. That's a big reason we had growth in the late 19th century, no red tape.

You mean it wasn't just elbow grease after all? I kinda thought so.

[Shwa]

You mean it wasn't just elbow grease after all? I kinda thought so.

And prisons. Oh, and workhouses too. The late 19th century had a lot going for it.

[Guest Manny]

But it has to be cheap otherwise we all end up in the poorhouse. That's a big reason we had growth in the late 19th century, no red tape.

And environmental destruction.

[blueblood]

And prisons. Oh, and workhouses too. The late 19th century had a lot going for it.

Including giving us the standard of living we enjoy today, would you rather go back to the days of lords and peasants living in a shack?

[Moonbox]

Ahh ... "red tape" ... like safety standards?

No, like having to deal with the welfare First Nations and the archaic and goofy institutions we have in place to continue throwing money at them pointlessly so they can continue to do nothing but complain and mooch more and more.

If you can't transport it cheaply ... it just isn't feasible ?... so we're just supposed to put up with the damage from leaks and spills?

How many big oil leaks have we had in our pipelines lately???

I think most of us are with the First Nations when it comes to leaks and spills. This has to be a new age, new technologies ... no excuse for shoddy work.

Actually, I think most of 'us' are tired of the First Nations and their belly-aching. Pipelines have been in use all over Ontario for decades and as far as I know there haven't been any significant problems. Pipeline technology isn't exactly complicated.

[blueblood]

Ahh ... "red tape" ... like safety standards?

If you can't transport it cheaply ... it just isn't feasible ?... so we're just supposed to put up with the damage from leaks and spills?

I think most of us are with the First Nations when it comes to leaks and spills. This has to be a new age, new technologies ... no excuse for shoddy work.

The work isn't shoddy, pipelines are a far safer alternative than containers and far more efficient.

Most of you hippies maybe. Most of us are for the standard of living we enjoy today.

Better go buy that horse!

[WWWTT]

The work isn't shoddy, pipelines are a far safer alternative than containers and far more efficient.

Most of you hippies maybe. Most of us are for the standard of living we enjoy today.

Better go buy that horse!

Kalamazoo river Michigan 2010?

Forgoten already I see

WWWTT

[blueblood]

Kalamazoo river Michigan 2010?

Forgoten already I see

WWWTT

Of course it's forgotten, it's pretty near cleaned up just like bp oil spill. Better than train derailments and truck accidents and leaky containers. How else do you plan on transporting oil, telepathy?