Persecuted Christians In America!

[betsy]

Hmm I think I will put Betsy back up top of my most fave troll list again.

You mean you've taken me off the top? How could you! :angry:

[betsy]

If two people of the same gender want be happy and grow old together good for them. They want to make their union official, they can go for it. It is not a marriage.

So, what's this endorsement for same-sex union which means not only supporting, but also endorsing homosexual acts?

You believe "married" homosexuals go through their union just holding hands, or making goo-goo eyes with one another across the dinner table?

Edited August 25, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

My dear brother Canadien,

It's very obvious to me - reading the challenging and tough questions you now also face from some non-believers - that you are having great difficulty trying to adhere to two opposing viewpoints in regards to SSM:

GOD's view (sex between same gender is an abomination!) against their view (sex between same gender is just normal).

How can a Christian possibly embrace both?

Candien, as God warned: You cannot serve two masters.

I rest my case.

Edited August 25, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

What do you mean by that? You're simply saying that what he believes, he believes.

The point is, is what he believes true?

The same point applies to you - is what you believe true? To you it is. But that doesn't make it true to others. So why should they be expected to live by your truth any more than you should be expected to live by theirs?

Of course to a relativist, whatever someone believes is okay (true). The reality is that in relativism, there is no right or wrong, no true or false. When eveything is true, nothing is true.

Some things are only "true" to yourself; there is no definitive proof regarding the existence of God one way or the other - it amounts to individual interpretation. As I pointed out, even the Bible has several versions, several interpretations - leading to several different faiths even within Christianity - from Catholic to Protestant; from Lutheran, to Methodist, to Baptist, etc. to the Unity Church.

Your problem is you believe truth and belief are necessrily the same.

I would say that's your problem, as you think others should act on your beliefs. I recognize that what I believe is true to me, but that others may not have the same truth.

I've repeatedly said that Christians/religious people who think their truth is The Truth and atheists who believe the same are just the other side of the coin. Both think they are right, and more enlightened, and just all around 'smarter than the average bear.'

But your belief isn't true.

You don't even know what my belief is, but it's just as true as yours. All of our beliefs regarding a higher power/God are just that - our beliefs. No one has The Answer. Thus our beliefs are personal, and and such, no one has a right to force their beliefs on others.

I've repeatedly said that if there is a God who doesn't approve of SSM, those marriages will not be blessed - while yours is. So you have your desire - God's blessing. So AGAIN. What is the problem? What does SSM take away from you? How would that change your marriage?

Edited August 25, 2012 by American Woman

[betsy]

I'm quoting this, and what you said about what Canadien says he believes not being the truth about what he believes, because, well, it just shows how you label anyone who believes differently than what you think they should. You put everyone in a box, label them, dishonestly, I might add, according to your judgement. You do know what the Bible says about judging, right? Here are just a few reminders - with my added emphasis:

Matthew 7:1 & 2- Do not judge, lest you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Matthew 7: 2-4- For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye?

John 8:7- If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone at her.

Matthew 5:15-

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 6:37- Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven

Romans 14:12-14 - So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

Of course we can judge! We can judge what is right and what is wrong! You've got to understand the Bible before you can throw verses around as your defense and argument - but before you can fully understand it, you've got to be guided by the Holy Spirit. If you are a non-believer, I guess you wouldn't want to be calling on the Holy Spirit. Your possible best recourse is to talk to a Pastor - from a Church that truly believes the teachings of Christ.

As you've mentioned somewhere there are different interpretations - and you're right. Some "christian" churches don't believe in the resurrection, or diety of Christ....and they marry homosexuals in their churches, and supports killing of babies.

You don't understand what you're talking about. All you do is grab a verse and there - THAT YOU THINK SUITS YOUR ARGUMENT - and perhaps even knowingly take it out of context - as a relativist would mould and twist truth around to suit his argument. But even then, it inevitably comes through you're just winging it as you go along. As an example, you included this:

Matthew 5:15- But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

:blink:

What's forgiving or forgiveness got to do with our discussion????

See what I mean?

The "judging" that you mean above....is judgemental judging. There is a big difference - even in your reality as a non-believer - between judging (discernment) and being judgemental.

Edited August 25, 2012 by betsy

[BubberMiley]

The "judging" that you mean above....is judgemental judging. There is a big difference - even in your reality as a non-believer - between judging (discernment) and being judgemental.

Of course there is a diffrence. God is judging you for being judgemental right now. It's too late to delete the judgemental posts too. The Internet never goes away.

[betsy]

The same point applies to you - is what you believe true? To you it is. But that doesn't make it true to others. So why should they be expected to live by your truth any more than you should be expected to live by theirs?

< bangs head against wall in frustration >

Remember what I told you? The discussion was between two Christians.

We both believe in the Christian God.

Some things are only "true" to yourself; there is no definitive proof regarding the existence of God one way or the other - it amounts to individual interpretation. As I pointed out, even the Bible has several versions, several interpretations - leading to several different faiths even within Christianity - from Catholic to Protestant; from Lutheran, to Methodist, to Baptist, etc. to the Unity Church.

I would say that's your problem, as you think others should act on your beliefs. I recognize that what I believe is true to me, but that others may not have the same truth.

I've repeatedly said that Christians/religious people who think their truth is The Truth and atheists who believe the same are just the other side of the coin. Both think they are right, and more enlightened, and just all around 'smarter than the average bear.'

You don't even know what my belief is, but it's just as true as yours. All of our beliefs regarding a higher power/God are just that - our beliefs. No one has The Answer. Thus our beliefs are personal, and and such, no one has a right to force their beliefs on others.

I've repeatedly said that if there is a God who doesn't approve of SSM, those marriages will not be blessed - while yours is. So you have your desire - God's blessing. So AGAIN. What is the problem? What does SSM take away from you? How would that change your marriage?

Therefore, your atheistic or agnostic reasonings, or whatever non-believer denomination you belong to, is irrelevant to the argument between Canadien and I.

I notice this running around is becoming a pattern here.....this is like Black Dog all over again. I won't be responding anymore unless you've got something to say that's worth replying to.

Edited August 25, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

Of course we can judge! We can judge what is right and what is wrong!

You can judge what's right and wrong for you. You have no right to pass judgement on others.

You've got to understand the Bible before you can throw verses around as your defense and argument - but before you can fully understand it, you've got to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

This is where it's purely your beliefs. No more, no less.

As you've mentioned somewhere there are different interpretations - and you're right. Some "christian" churches don't believe in the resurrection, or diety of Christ....and they marry homosexuals in their churches, and supports killing of babies.

Which church supports the killing of babies? I don't know of any church that has supported someone charged with murdering their baby. Could you provide me with sources?

You don't understand what you're talking about.

I most certainly do. It's you who can't, or refuses, to understand it.

All you do is grab a verse and there - THAT YOU THINK SUITS YOUR ARGUMENT - and perhaps even knowingly take it out of context - as a relativist would mould and twist truth around to suit his argument. But even then, it inevitably comes through you're just winging it as you go along. As an example, you included this:

Matthew 5:15- But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

:blink:

The verse is very pertinent to your judgement of gays. In other words, instead of worrying about what they do, perhaps you should be more concerned with what you are doing - be concerned with your own salvation. Does that help you understand why I included it? I'm guessing not.

What's forgiving or forgiveness got to do with our discussion????

See what I mean?

Read my response above. See what *I* mean?

The "judging" that you mean above....is judgemental judging. There is a big difference - even in your reality as a non-believer - between judging (discernment) and being judgemental.

Oh my God, this is funny. Or ironic. Or perhaps it's just sad. The judging that you are doing IS "judgmental judging." The verse is very relevant.

Try living your life the way you think it should be lived without judging others, without expecting them to live according to your beliefs. What a concept, eh? I bet Jesus would even approve.

[kimmy]

I had some great Persecution updates-- including one featuring perennial favorite Tim Tebow!-- but I'll hold off until this current discussion passes.

I am currious as to how Christians feel about other types of non-Christian marriage. Leaving aside same-sex marriage for the moment... what about civil marriage, common-law marriage, or marriages performed in other faith-traditions?

It may have been at one point that Christians didn't consider a "common law marriage" a real marriage, but rather "two people living in sin". Is that still the case, or has that changed? Or what about a Hindu marriage? Do Christians consider it a real marriage if a man and a woman exchange vows under some idol? Do Christians consider it a real marriage if a couple sign some documents in a government office?

If there was an uproar over any of that stuff, it was probably before my time.

But I am not aware of any Christians objecting to the use of the word "marriage" to describe any of these non-Christian unions. And I am not sure why some Christians believe they have protective custody of the word "marriage" anyway.

edit to add: of course, it's not just about the word marriage. While some people have suggested that if gays would just abandon the word "marriage" and have "civil unions" instead, people would be ok with giving them equivalent rights and benefits. But that position is in the minority among those who oppose same sex marriage. Just this past week the Republicans overwhelmingly agreed that they're not ok with "civil unions" either.

-k

Edited August 25, 2012 by kimmy

[cybercoma]

The same point applies to you - is what you believe true? To you it is. But that doesn't make it true to others.

Truth is not relative.

Some things are only "true" to yourself

These are called delusions.

Edited August 25, 2012 by cybercoma

[bleeding heart]

But I am not aware of any Christians objecting to the use of the word "marriage" to describe any of these non-Christian unions.

I've noticed this as well. I doubt you'll have any takers on this point, interestingly.

[kimmy]

Truth is not relative.

I think you and she are talking about fundamentally different things. I think you're talking about truth as in objective fact, and she is talking about something more spiritual in nature.

-k

[CANADIEN]

Saying it's not a marriage is just plain nonsense. As much as I hate using the word, since Shady overuses it, it certainly applies here. You can go around saying that "dogs" are "tables" all you want, but it's totally absurd. So is saying a marriage is not a marriage because the couple doesn't fit your ridiculous gender qualifications.

Actually, to choose YOUR anology, you are the one who is arguing that a "dog" is a "table".

[cybercoma]

I think you and she are talking about fundamentally different things. I think you're talking about truth as in objective fact, and she is talking about something more spiritual in nature.

-k

I guess. The point I'm trying to make is that there's a difference between truth and beliefs. You can have your own beliefs, but you can't have your own truth.

[CANADIEN]

My dear brother Canadien,

It's very obvious to me - reading the challenging and tough questions you now also face from some non-believers - that you are having great difficulty trying to adhere to two opposing viewpoints in regards to SSM:

GOD's view (sex between same gender is an abomination!) against their view (sex between same gender is just normal).

How can a Christian possibly embrace both?

Candien, as God warned: You cannot serve two masters.

I rest my case.

I wonder what is the most astounding. Your bigotry, your fanatism, your hypocrisy (dear brother, really? ) or the fact you are oblivious to all of these.

Now, in case you didn't figure it out, what people have been talking about here is SSM, not homosexual act. But then, while God stretches the Universe, you keep stretching facts. As it suits you.

At least now we know that for you it is not just about "marriage belonging to us", or "feeling bullied" - it is about your, to put mildly, dislike of homesexuals.

I have not said one word about what I think of homosexual acts. Not surprisingly, that has not prevented you from making a fool of yourself AGAIN but putting opinions in my brains.

Now - this is what I think of homosexual acts. They are sinful (cue to a number of people calling me all kinds of things for that). But we are all sinners, all of us. And I have seen sins far worse than that one - prejudice, hatred, envy, warmongering, contempt for the poor, the hungry, the stranger, to name a few.

Since I am not as clueless as you, not only do I get a sense of what people in a committed same-sex relationship do in bed besides sleeping, but I know that is more to a long, loving relationship than sex. A lot more. Being there for one another, rejoicing in what ever good there is in the other, celebrating with that person, mourning with that person, supporting each other in hard times.

And whatever I can think of any sin people in a loving, caring relationship may be committing, I say good for them if they have somebody they care for and who cares for them, in which they have found good to rejoice in and who have found what is good in them, whom they celebrate with, whom they mourn with, whom they support and who supports them in hard time. Wanting THAT for other people is called loving others like one-self.

Edited August 25, 2012 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

I haven't been keeping with this discussion. So why do you not believe SSM is right, and how is this decision informed by your Christian beliefs in God?

Mind if I postpoine that one until after vacations?

[CANADIEN]

I've noticed this as well. I doubt you'll have any takers on this point, interestingly.

Quick one... Won't be here for a while, too bad because you raise an interesting question. God instituted marriage to be between one man and one woman. Not uniquely between one Christian man and one Christain woman.

[bleeding heart]

Quick one... Won't be here for a while, too bad because you raise an interesting question. God instituted marriage to be between one man and one woman. Not uniquely between one Christian man and one Christain woman.

If there were no such Scriptural personages as Solomon and Abraham, then ok. But you undoubtedly know better than I: did God ever remonstrate with the polygamists?

[Guest American Woman]

I am currious as to how Christians feel about other types of non-Christian marriage. Leaving aside same-sex marriage for the moment... what about civil marriage, common-law marriage, or marriages performed in other faith-traditions?

It may have been at one point that Christians didn't consider a "common law marriage" a real marriage, but rather "two people living in sin". Is that still the case, or has that changed? Or what about a Hindu marriage? Do Christians consider it a real marriage if a man and a woman exchange vows under some idol? Do Christians consider it a real marriage if a couple sign some documents in a government office?

"Christians" have a variety of feelings about the "other types" of marriages that you refer to - just as there is no "Christian" stance on SSM, and Christians don't all feel the same about it. There is no unified Christian stance that every Christian feels and believes. Furthermore, non-Christians and atheists and agnostics have a variety of feelings about them, too.

Edited August 25, 2012 by American Woman

[Smallc]

The bible doesn't really say much about homosexuality, and the one where it seems to be clear, Leviticus, I mean, are bible followers really on baoard with everything Leviticus says?

[The_Squid]

Quick one... Won't be here for a while, too bad because you raise an interesting question. God instituted marriage to be between one man and one woman. Not uniquely between one Christian man and one Christain woman.

Do you do things on the sabbath?

[boobowa]

God; conquest never ends. We were fine till the settlers landed with their morality and dis-eases. We then contracted the pox and TB, mountains of buffalo carcasses have been testament to starving out thousands upon thousands of 'heathens' - we were also raped by the godsquad as children, and then had our children stolen and beaten in residential schools. How much evidence do you need to show that the nature of your morality is intrinsically violent? You speak about conception and respect for life in one breath but not so long ago you did everything to wipe away conception with brutal sterilization campaigns of mass destruction of the original inhabitants, at least their culture, throughout North America. Your posts are pompous and ignorant. How can you prescribe to a book that proclaims the merits of a loving god when you have not even witnessed 'him' in any of your lives. Nobody has met 'him' and knows of 'him'. All you have is a book filled with stories of genocide by a loving god of which nations use to legitimate real acts of genocide globally.

[betsy]

You can judge what's right and wrong for you. You have no right to pass judgement on others.

Eh? You think we should do away with our court of law? Since accusing, trying and convicting a criminal is passing judgement on others?

You are confused. And understandably so since - being a nonbeliever - you don't understand the teachings in the Bible.

The verse is very pertinent to your judgement of gays. In other words, instead of worrying about what they do, perhaps you should be more concerned with what you are doing - be concerned with your own salvation. Does that help you understand why I included it? I'm guessing not.

So, explain where my "forgiving" and "forgiveness" enters into this?

Read my response above. See what *I* mean?

No. See what I mean?

Oh my God, this is funny. Or ironic. Or perhaps it's just sad. The judging that you are doing IS "judgmental judging." The verse is very relevant.

Okay, humor me. In what way? Explain.

Try living your life the way you think it should be lived without judging others, without expecting them to live according to your beliefs. What a concept, eh? I bet Jesus would even approve.

No, Jesus wouldn't approve. He actually warned us about those who'll try to confuse us....and mislead us. About those that promote the very things that earned God's wrath in the Old Testament.....the ones who are being used as a tool by Satan. Like you for example. Who'll try to use and manipulate God's very words to work for your misguided argument. Yep. People like you are in the Bible, believe it or not. One verse is the "getting yoked" verse. It's been quoted somewhere here....check it out.

As I said, the discussion was between Canadien and I - two Christians who believe in the same God. So your atheistic views are irrelevant. You're like a child being a nuisance, butting in a conversation by adults, that don't relate to you at all - since the discussion surely flies over your head, - and it had been explained to you.

Edited August 26, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

The bible doesn't really say much about homosexuality,

How would you know? You didn't know about the shellfish and the pork either.....

[Guest American Woman]

Eh? You think we should do away with our court of law? Since accusing, trying and convicting a criminal is passing judgement on others?

If you think the kind of judgement you are doing is equivalent to a court of law, you need to get yourself back into reality, pronto. Do you think the Bible, when speaking of judging others, was saying that we should have no courts of law? Is that part of your Christian belief too?

You are confused. And understandably so since - being a nonbeliever - you don't understand the teachings in the Bible.

So you believe that kind of "judgment" is the same as trying and convicting a criminal? You don't even know what my beliefs are, but you've declared me a nonbeliever. Heaven help us if juries are as narrow minded and judgmental as you, making verdicts without any evidence.

Yet I'm the one who is confused.

Unbelievable.

Your beliefs are fine - for you to live by. You are not a court of law, you have no business judging others or expecting them to live according to your beliefs. That's the Real World.

Edited August 26, 2012 by American Woman