Persecuted Christians In America!

[betsy]

I am currious as to how Christians feel about other types of non-Christian marriage. Leaving aside same-sex marriage for the moment... what about civil marriage, common-law marriage,

I've raised a passing comment about that actually, can't remember which topic. As far as I know, there is no actual marriage ceremony - like the exchanging of vows we now have - shown in the Bible. The only thing close to a wedding is relatred to a celebration where Jesus changed water into wine.

In the New testament, one of the Apostles said that if you cleave to a prostitute, you become one flesh. So it means once you have sex with someone - in the eyes of God, you are one flesh.

Common-law is being married. You are expected to be faithful to each other just like any married couples who went through the rituals of a wedding. That is the way I see it.

or marriages performed in other faith-traditions?

As a Christian looking at it from my position, I'd say they are married, and ought to be faithful to each other. Any additional wives or husbands to that union - will be wrong from my perspective as a Christian.

It may have been at one point that Christians didn't consider a "common law marriage" a real marriage, but rather "two people living in sin". Is that still the case, or has that changed? Or what about a Hindu marriage? Do Christians consider it a real marriage if a man and a woman exchange vows under some idol? Do Christians consider it a real marriage if a couple sign some documents in a government office?

If there was an uproar over any of that stuff, it was probably before my time.

Churches add their own man-made laws into the mix. That was the problem with the Pharisees in Jesus' time. They put more focus into their man-made laws and making it harder for people to follow.

Some churches are just more into the "fluffs" and "show" - rituals and all sorts of contortions like rosary praying as an example - which is actually a repetitious prayer (very much frowned upon by God).

edit to add: of course, it's not just about the word marriage. While some people have suggested that if gays would just abandon the word "marriage" and have "civil unions" instead, people would be ok with giving them equivalent rights and benefits. But that position is in the minority among those who oppose same sex marriage. Just this past week the Republicans overwhelmingly agreed that they're not ok with "civil unions" either.

-k

To a Christian, it is the clear message in the Bible against homosexual acts. That's the big problem. It is plainly specified. No sex between same gender.

Have to go...

[Smallc]

.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Smallc

[Smallc]

It's in the New Testament!

So what does the New Testament says about homosexuality then?

Not much, it seems:

http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/homosexuality.html

That's why most people that talk about the evils of homosexuality refer to Leviticus....but then, as we all know, Leviticus says a lot of things.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Smallc

[betsy]

So what does the New Testament says about homosexuality then?

Not much, it seems:

Okay....we'll try to do this in an organized way so it will be easier to understand:

First, let's take a look at the Old Testament again.

Genesis 18

The Three Visitors

18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

God and His angels appeared to Abraham in the form of men.

Genesis 18

Abraham Pleads for Sodom

16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.[c] 19 For I have chosen him , so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”

20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing —to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake. ”

Genesis 19

Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

19 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom —both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”

The angels were still in the form of men, thus the mob of men were asking for the men so they can have sex with them. Lot, even offered his virgin daughters to this mob of men.

Leviticus 18

Unlawful Sexual Relations

18 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 18 enumerated various sexual relations that are offensive to God.

Edited August 26, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

So what does the New Testament says about homosexuality then?

Not much, it seems:

http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/homosexuality.html

That's why most people that talk about the evils of homosexuality refer to Leviticus....but then, as we all know, Leviticus says a lot of things.

Oh yes, NT says a lot about it, and quite specifically too! Leviticus is referred to, but the full explanation appears in Genesis, descriptions about the sins of Sodomand Gomorrah.

They probably practiced other sexual immorality, depravity, and bestiality - but it's the homosexual sex aspect that's been focused on in Genesis. So, that says a lot!

In the New Testament, I'd like to remind you that Jesus said:

Matt 5:17

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Therefore, the laws concerning sex with same gender still apllies.

Romans 1

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Take note that homosexuality was not lumped along with the "sexually immoral," but was specifically described as sex between same gender.

Tim 1

Timothy Charged to Oppose False Teachers

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Again, homosexuality was specifically stated, and dealt separately with the "sexually immoral."

Jude 1

Old and New Apostates

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah are given as examples.

Edited August 26, 2012 by betsy

[GostHacked]

Okay....we'll try to do this in an organized way so it will be easier to understand:

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing —to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake. ”

Seems like God is a bit of an asshole.

[kimmy]

In the New Testament, I'd like to remind you that Jesus said:

Matt 5:17

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Therefore, the laws concerning sex with same gender still apllies.

That law still applies? What about all the other laws?

-k

[betsy]

That law still applies? What about all the other laws? -k

Like what?

[betsy]

I wonder what is the most astounding. Your bigotry, your fanatism, your hypocrisy (dear brother, really? ) or the fact you are oblivious to all of these.

Now, in case you didn't figure it out, what people have been talking about here is SSM, not homosexual act.

Unbelievable.

[betsy]

Do you do things on the sabbath?

Those things required for Sabbath were actually meant for the Jews.

Gentiles are required to observe the Lord's Day or keep it Holy. Gentiles are also not required to be circumcised, or to refrain from eating pork or shellfish, or anything that was first listed in the OT as a list of "do not eat."

Edited August 26, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

If you think the kind of judgement you are doing is equivalent to a court of law, you need to get yourself back into reality, pronto. Do you think the Bible, when speaking of judging others, was saying that we should have no courts of law? Is that part of your Christian belief too?

So you believe that kind of "judgment" is the same as trying and convicting a criminal? You don't even know what my beliefs are, but you've declared me a nonbeliever. Heaven help us if juries are as narrow minded and judgmental as you, making verdicts without any evidence.

Yet I'm the one who is confused.

Unbelievable.

Your beliefs are fine - for you to live by. You are not a court of law, you have no business judging others or expecting them to live according to your beliefs. That's the Real World.

So where's your explanation why you quoted to me the verse about "forgiveness" and "forgiving?"

[betsy]

I have not said one word about what I think of homosexual acts.

Oh yes, you did!

Canadien said:

If two people of the same gender want be happy and grow old together good for them. They want to make their union official, they can go for it

Canadien said:

Since I am not as clueless as you, not only do I get a sense of what people in a committed same-sex relationship do in bed besides sleeping, but I know that is more to a long, loving relationship than sex.

So you know what goes on in SSM. You not only supported it (read your diatribe below), but actually encourage homosexuals to "go for it," and misleading them by saying, "good for you."

How can that be good for them when you know what kind of consequence God said awaits them? earthly pleasures weigh more to you then?

Now - this is what I think of homosexual acts. They are sinful (cue to a number of people calling me all kinds of things for that). But we are all sinners, all of us. And I have seen sins far worse than that one - prejudice, hatred, envy, warmongering, contempt for the poor, the hungry, the stranger, to name a few.

Since I am not as clueless as you, not only do I get a sense of what people in a committed same-sex relationship do in bed besides sleeping, but I know that is more to a long, loving relationship than sex. A lot more. Being there for one another, rejoicing in what ever good there is in the other, celebrating with that person, mourning with that person, supporting each other in hard times.

And whatever I can think of any sin people in a loving, caring relationship may be committing, I say good for them if they have somebody they care for and who cares for them, in which they have found good to rejoice in and who have found what is good in them, whom they celebrate with, whom they mourn with, whom they support and who supports them in hard time. Wanting THAT for other people is called loving others like one-self.

But it is not about you....or how you think it should be....

Questions: You're saying your interpretation is better than God? That your interpretation should trump what's specifically written in the Bible?

Because that's clearly what you are endorsing here: your own interpretation to supercede what's clearly stated in the Bible.

I hope you do think about some poor guy latching on to your interpretation and finding himself lost to God.

Edited August 26, 2012 by betsy

[kimmy]

Like what?

Well for example, Leviticus also has rules about how to conduct a proper animal sacrifice to atone for your transgressions, and what to do with witches and wizards. Deuteronomy has rules about what to do with a girl who isn't a virgin on her wedding night (hint: there's rocks involved.)

-k

[Smallc]

All points betsy conveniently continues to ignore. Things can't be had both ways. Overall, the only reasonable conclusion is that the bible is a book of nonsense bs...

[betsy]

Well for example, Leviticus also has rules about how to conduct a proper animal sacrifice to atone for your transgressions, and what to do with witches and wizards. Deuteronomy has rules about what to do with a girl who isn't a virgin on her wedding night (hint: there's rocks involved.)

-k

Some of those laws were cultural laws in those days.

Jesus was referring to the Commandments. He expanded on them to explain.

His message differs dramatically from the cultural practice ie stoning, thus He intervened to save an adulteress by saying, "let the one with no sin cast the first stone."

There was divorce too in those days, but Christ criticised that the people then were so stiff-necked - divorcing/abandonement - that Moses was forced to amend the divorce law, mostly to protect the women. Men would just leave their wives....and abandoned women suffered the most in that culture.

For an indepth explanation, you should talk to a Pastor or someone with deep knowledge of the Bible (which includes translations, culture etc,), or perhaps get a Bible Study Bible (ones with explanations). I'm just on my second reading of the Bible (with explanations), and some of this I've learned while listening to Charles Price on Living Truth. He explains passages quite simply and clearly....

Edited August 26, 2012 by betsy

[Melanie_]

The angels were still in the form of men, thus the mob of men were asking for the men so they can have sex with them. Lot, even offered his virgin daughters to this mob of men.

So, Lot offers his virgin daughters to a mob to be raped. And then later, gets them both pregnant. You really want to worship a god that sees Lot as the shining example of sexual morality?

[Guest American Woman]

Some of those laws were cultural laws in those days.

So how do you know, if there was a ban against homosexuality, that it wasn't just a cultural law of the day?

Jesus was referring to the Commandments.

So where in The Ten Commandments does it say that SSM is a sin?

[cybercoma]

The angels were still in the form of men, thus the mob of men were asking for the men so they can have sex with them. Lot, even offered his virgin daughters to this mob of men.

How do you know it's the homosexuality and not the fact that a gang wanted to rape them? Perhaps it's the gang rape that's the problem and not homosexuality.

Of course, then it seems perfectly alright that Lot would offer up his virgin daughters to be gang raped. No problems there, right? Lot gets a free pass even though he tried to pimp out his little girls.

[cybercoma]

Like what?

You're the Christian. Shouldn't you know?

Since you don't seem to have any clue, HERE is a full list of the Levitical Laws.

Some highlights:

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16).

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

Oh and there's a variety of other fun stuff like not eating shellfish.

[cybercoma]

Those things required for Sabbath were actually meant for the Jews.

Gentiles are required to observe the Lord's Day or keep it Holy. Gentiles are also not required to be circumcised, or to refrain from eating pork or shellfish, or anything that was first listed in the OT as a list of "do not eat."

Oh but all the stuff about homosexuals is still good just cuz. I see.

[cybercoma]

Some of those laws were cultural laws in those days.

Jesus was referring to the Commandments.

How do you know that he was referring to those. Isn't that just your interpretation. He didn't say the Commandments. He said the Laws. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are filled with Laws.

[Smallc]

And here's another question - if homosexuality is so unnatural, why is it so prevalent in nature?

[betsy]

So, Lot offers his virgin daughters to a mob to be raped. And then later, gets them both pregnant. You really want to worship a god that sees Lot as the shining example of sexual morality?

That's how a non-believer who reads the Bible and yet wouldn't understand it, would see it.

Your conclusion on Lot is based on pure speculation on your part - inaccurate speculation, at that:

Gen 19: 31-35

“Then the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of the earth. “Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. On the following day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father; let us make him drink wine tonight also; then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose and lay with him; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.”

So clearly, Lot was unaware of this.

We have to consider the culture of the time. The continuance of the family line is all-important in those days.

Genesis 19

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”

9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

Why Lot would offer his own daughters - more likely Lot perhaps suspected who these strangers are, since the mob interestingly said, "this fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play judge." So maybe, Lot's faith is counting on God's intervention that nothing will come to his own daughters.

However, obviously homosexual sex was considered more wicked than rape of virgins by men (because of the very un-naturalness of sex between same gender in the eyes of God), thus offering his daughters is like choosing the lesser evil?

Here is another perspective:

To our modern sensibilities, it’s hard to understand why God would allow these two terrible incidents to occur. We are told in 1st Corinthians 10:11 that the record of the Old Testament is for an “example” to us. In other words, God gives us the whole truth about biblical characters, their sin, their failures, their victories and good deeds, and we are to learn from their example, what to do and what not to do. In fact, this is one of the ways God teaches us what we need to know in order to make good choices as believers. We can learn the easy way by knowing and obeying God’s Word, we can learn the hard way by suffering the consequences of our mistakes, or we can learn by watching others and “taking heed” from their experiences.

Scripture does not reveal Lot's reasoning for offering up his daughters. Whatever his thought process was, it was wrong and indefensible. Based on what is revealed about Lot's life one might wonder if he was righteous. However, there is no doubt that God had declared him to be positionally righteous, even during his time in Sodom. "And if God rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds)" (2 Peter 2:7-8). At some point Lot had believed in the coming Messiah, and that faith resulted in a righteous standing before God. It is likely that Lot's uncle, Abraham, had passed this truth down to him. More on Lot....

http://www.gotquestions.org/Lots-daughters.html

If you're really keen on understanding the whys in the Bible....you have to talk with a credible Pastor or go to Christian forums/resources online and ask your questions.

Edited August 27, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

So how do you know, if there was a ban against homosexuality, that it wasn't just a cultural law of the day?

So where in The Ten Commandments does it say that SSM is a sin?

Where is your explanation about quoting forgiving and forgiveness?

[betsy]

How do you know that he was referring to those. Isn't that just your interpretation. He didn't say the Commandments. He said the Laws. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are filled with Laws.

Well obviously He was, since He explained which are the most important of all laws. And they are, Loving God with all your heart, mind and soul and Loving thy neighbor. He said all others are hinged on those two.

He also told the Apostles not to make the laws difficult for Gentiles to follow (like forbidding them to eat pork, etc which they are accustomed to, or having to go through circumcision etc..,)....Jews were chosen and were supposed to be nation of holy people that's why they had to go through all those special things required of them.

The Commandments handed to Moses, are the laws!

Edited August 27, 2012 by betsy