Persecuted Christians In America!

[betsy]

So what's the "political" objection to same-sex marriage, besides "it's our word"?

Btw...

Fighting to re-define the word of marriage - which one knows has deep religious significance to certain groups - is bullying. It could've resulted in a harmonious ending if gays coined their own term for union.

So why is it so important for gays to re-define the term marriage? If their concern is to enjoy the same benefits as married heterosexual couples do....they could've gained those without having to re-define marriage.

Like in a sandbox. A bully grabs the toy another child has, even though he can have other toys available.

[Guest American Woman]

Btw...

Fighting to re-define the word of marriage - which one knows has deep religious significance to certain groups - is bullying. It could've resulted in a harmonious ending if gays coined their own term for union.

It could have resulted in a harmonious ending if those with deep religious convictions accepted that gays getting married doesn't affect them and let it go. So what if it goes against your religious convictions? No one is forcing you into a gay marriage. Don't like it? Don't have one.

If God truly doesn't believe gays have the right to marry, isn't that up to Him to deal with come the Judgement day? In other words, who died and made you God?

So why is it so important for gays to re-define the term marriage? If their concern is to enjoy the same benefits as married heterosexual couples do....they could've gained those without having to re-define marriage.

Why is it so important for those with deep religious convictions that it be called something other than marriage - knowing that everything else is the same? If it's a sin under the name "marriage," wouldn't it still be a sin in God's eyes under any other name? I doubt if God is going to be fooled because it's called something else. You know, how a rose by any other name is still a rose .....

Like in a sandbox. A bully grabs the toy another child has, even though he can have other toys available.

When the bully in the sandbox grabs the toy another child has, that child is left without a toy. What are YOU left without by gays marrying? How is that taking anything away from you?

On the other hand, if the kid with the toy tells the other kid that he can't have one of his own, who is the bully?

Edited August 10, 2012 by American Woman

[msj]

Okay, I'm not going to force you.....

Oh, now you're doing what I'm doing: pretending to be the opposite of what you are.

[BubberMiley]

Btw...

Fighting to re-define the word of marriage - which one knows has deep religious significance to certain groups - is bullying.

I agree. I also think that whenever someone disagrees with me, they are bullying. You should have zero tolerance for it too.

[kimmy]

I agree. I also think that whenever someone disagrees with me, they are bullying. You should have zero tolerance for it too.

nicely done, Bubber. I fear it will probably go over her head.

-k

[kimmy]

FORCING others to accept your views....is bullying.

Fighting to re-define the word of marriage - which one knows has deep religious significance to certain groups - is bullying. It could've resulted in a harmonious ending if gays coined their own term for union.

Bubber tried to say this with finesse, but I will say it bluntly: buy yourself a dictionary, you clueless ignoramus.

For you to try to equate the kid who was told to not wear his "You're going to Hell without Jesus" shirt to school and to stop telling other students they were going to hell, to the continuous ongoing torment that caused kids like Matt Epling and Phoebe Prince to take their own lives just proves how completely utterly detached from reality you are.

Personally, I don't think you can fully understand bullying unless you've had a family member come home from school and lock himself in his room to cry each day, or develop mysterious cuts and bruises that he won't talk about, or vomit from fear each morning before school, or try to fake illness so that he wouldn't have to go. My little brother endured years of bullying, and I got in countless fights standing up for him. Proudly so. You want to compare the douchebag kid who was told to stop proselytizing at school to real victims of bullying? I don't know whether I want to laugh in your face, or puke on it.

-k

[betsy]

Oh, now you're doing what I'm doing: pretending to be the opposite of what you are.

Well we're supposed to be discussing. You said something that to me, doesn't make sense. I'm asking you to explain what you mean. Perhaps I'm not seeing it the way you do.

You refused, saying others understood it.

I'm not pretending to be the opposite of what you're doing - whatever that means.

I'm left to draw my own conclusion: You made a statement that doesn't make sense. You were asked to clarify and explain what you mean. You refused. The reason you refused (from my perspective) is because you cannot explain it.

[betsy]

I agree. I also think that whenever someone disagrees with me, they are bullying. You should have zero tolerance for it too.

Well I don't think that anyone who disagrees with me is bullying. They have every right to disagree with me.

But it is bullying, if they try to force me to agree with them.

Big difference.

Edited August 10, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Well I don't think that anyone who disagrees with me is bullying. They have every right to disagree with me.

But it is bullying, if they try to force me to agree with them.

Big difference.

And if you stand your ground and don't agree with them - they want you to shut up. They try to take away your rights. They try to make you "pay" for it. They persecute you.

And that's what's happened in the example of Chick Fil A.

[betsy]

betsy, on 09 August 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Do you support a crowd of gay supporters coming to Chick Fil A to do a sit-in?

Sure why not?

A sit-in will mean disrupting a business. It will cost the business loss of sales.

Edited August 10, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Bubber tried to say this with finesse, but I will say it bluntly: buy yourself a dictionary, you clueless ignoramus.

For you to try to equate the kid who was told to not wear his "You're going to Hell without Jesus" shirt to school and to stop telling other students they were going to hell, to the continuous ongoing torment that caused kids like Matt Epling and Phoebe Prince to take their own lives just proves how completely utterly detached from reality you are.

Personally, I don't think you can fully understand bullying unless you've had a family member come home from school and lock himself in his room to cry each day, or develop mysterious cuts and bruises that he won't talk about, or vomit from fear each morning before school, or try to fake illness so that he wouldn't have to go. My little brother endured years of bullying, and I got in countless fights standing up for him. Proudly so. You want to compare the douchebag kid who was told to stop proselytizing at school to real victims of bullying? I don't know whether I want to laugh in your face, or puke on it.

-k

You've got a very narrow view of "bullying." You don't have to buy yourself a dictionary....I'll share this with you, so listen up Kimmy: In a nutshell....

bullying (present participle of bul·ly)

Verb:

Use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.

Bullying 101 for Kimmy:

Bullying is a form of aggressive behavior manifested by the use of force or coercion to affect others, particularly when the behavior is habitual and involves an imbalance of power. It can include verbal harassment, physical assault or coercion and may be directed repeatedly towards particular victims, perhaps on grounds of race, religion, gender, sexuality, or ability.[2][3] The "imbalance of power" may be social power and/or physical power. The victim of bullying is sometimes referred to as a "target".

Bullying consists of three basic types of abuse – emotional, verbal, and physical. It typically involves subtle methods of coercion such as intimidation. Bullying can be defined in many different ways. The UK currently has no legal definition of bullying,[4] while some U.S. states have laws against it.[5]

Bullying ranges from simple one-on-one bullying to more complex bullying in which the bully may have one or more 'lieutenants' who may seem to be willing to assist the primary bully in his or her bullying activities. Bullying in school and the workplace is also referred to as peer abuse.[6] Robert W. Fuller has analyzed bullying in the context of rankism.

Bullying can occur in any context in which human beings interact with each other. This includes school, church, family, the workplace, home, and neighborhoods. It is even a common push factor in migration. Bullying can exist between social groups, social classes, and even between countries (see jingoism). In fact, on an international scale, perceived or real imbalances of power between nations, in both economic systems and in treaty systems, are often cited as some of the primary causes of both World War I and World War II.[7][8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

Edited August 10, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Bubber tried to say this with finesse, but I will say it bluntly: buy yourself a dictionary, you clueless ignoramus.

For you to try to equate the kid who was told to not wear his "You're going to Hell without Jesus" shirt to school and to stop telling other students they were going to hell, to the continuous ongoing torment that caused kids like Matt Epling and Phoebe Prince to take their own lives just proves how completely utterly detached from reality you are. -k

I'll ignore the name-calling, Kimmy....as I already know you too well to understand that that's how you react whenever you realise your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I see the all-too-familiar "ingratiating tone" as your prepping the groundwork - hoping for a gang-bang perhaps?

I'm even expecting your usual rah-rah call for support from your minions - and your classic, "we hate you," speech. Well, if it makes you feel much better....

Anyway, speaking of Matt Epling...

The Michigan Senate passed legislation Wednesday that requires school districts to develop anti-bullying policies, but the father of the boy for whom the bill is named says he has strong objections to language inserted at the last minute.

One of the reforms will require school districts to have procedures in place to address bullying complaints. But the bill now also has language that says requirements don't "prohibit a statement of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil's parent or guardian."

Kevin Epling, whose son Matt Epling killed himself in 2002 after being bullied, said that the added language will allow anyone to bully a student and cite their religious beliefs. He has worked with lawmakers for years to developed anti-bullying legislation.

"This is just unconscionable. This is government-sanctioned bigotry," said Epling of East Lansing, who said he is "ashamed" that lawmakers added the language at the last minute.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/219322/81/Its-OK-to-bully

Much as I feel sorry for the young lad and his family for the pain they must be feeling....it is going overboard when you demand as an action, taking away the rights of free expression and freedom of religion/belief.

Perhaps you guys who want to stifle those freedom ought to start your movement to change the constituion.

Edited August 10, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Personally, I don't think you can fully understand bullying unless you've had a family member come home from school and lock himself in his room to cry each day, or develop mysterious cuts and bruises that he won't talk about, or vomit from fear each morning before school, or try to fake illness so that he wouldn't have to go. My little brother endured years of bullying, and I got in countless fights standing up for him. Proudly so. You want to compare the douchebag kid who was told to stop proselytizing at school to real victims of bullying? I don't know whether I want to laugh in your face, or puke on it. -k

Well I hear you about bullying. I got bullied by a couple of boys in elementary school. They'd pull my hair from behind and run away. Finally I stood up for myself. When they pulled my hair and ran, I took my shoe and threw it at one. It landed at the back of his head. He was crying. Unfortunately, a nun saw me throwing the shoe (but didn't see what prompted me to throw that shoe). I got punished for it...but boy, it was worth it.

Your real problem with this issue however, is not about bullying at all. It's with this boldened word.

You want to compare the douchebag kid who was told to stop proselytizing at school to real victims of bullying?

And the religion that teen represents.

proselytizing (present participle of pros·e·lyt·ize)

Verb:

1.Convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

2.Advocate or promote (a belief or course of action): "Davis wanted to proselytize his ideas".

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&sugexp=caqth&gs_nf=1&cp=20&gs_id=26&xhr=t&q=proselytizing+definition&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=proselytizing+defini&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=2a3410d56eca1659&biw=1198&bih=487

Edited August 10, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

I agree. I also think that whenever someone disagrees with me, they are bullying. You should have zero tolerance for it too.]

nicely done, Bubber. I fear it will probably go over her head.

-k

ZERO TOLERANCE for anyone who disagrees with you. That's quite loaded, don't you think so?

So how do you propose to exert this zero tolerance to anyone who disagrees with you, Kimmy?

You can't even say, "That's sarcasm..." because you've plainly demonstrated (on this board) that you do have that mentality.

Edited August 11, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

When the bully in the sandbox grabs the toy another child has, that child is left without a toy. What are YOU left without by gays marrying? How is that taking anything away from you?

On the other hand, if the kid with the toy tells the other kid that he can't have one of his own, who is the bully?

Hear, hear....your kind of perspective might be at the bottom of all this rash of bullying we see happening nowadays.

You're saying that it's okay to grab a toy from a child if that victim is not left without a toy.

And you seem to think that "SHARING..." is an absolute must. That all someone has to do is walk up to a child with several toys and say the magic word, "please," that the other child is obligated to share his toys with the "pleasee."

I've seen how this "sharing..." has been abused when I had a daycare.....that the "pleasee" develops a sense of entitlement, thinking all he has to do is ask politely and it shall be granted. I've seen children in deep solitary play with several toys (using them in their imaginative play), then another child butts in and say, "you have to share..."

And it's not because there weren't any other toys to play with. It's just simply because at that moment, little mr pleasee wants that particular toy.

They don't seem to grasp the meaning of, "wait for your turn." Or, "first come, first served."

Perhaps we should try that approach in the real world. Anyone knows the phone # of the Gates and the Trumps? I need a few other things...perhaps if I say, "please...."

Edited August 10, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Hear, hear....your kind of perspective might be at the bottom of all this rash of bullying we see happening nowadays.

You're saying that it's okay to grab a toy from a child if that victim is not left without a toy.

And you seem to think that "SHARING..." is an absolute must. That all someone has to do is walk up to a child with several toys and say the magic word, "please," that the other child is obligated to share his toys with the "pleasee."

I've seen how this "sharing..." has been abused when I had a daycare.....that the "pleasee" develops a sense of entitlement, thinking all he has to do is ask politely and it shall be granted. I've seen children in deep solitary play with several toys (using them in their imaginative play), then another child butts in and say, "you have to share..."

And it's not because there weren't any other toys to play with. It's just simply because at that moment, little mr pleasee wants that particular toy.

They don't seem to grasp the meaning of, "wait for your turn." Or, "first come, first served."

Perhaps that's what happens when we claim there are too many "gray" areas in knowing between right and wrong? The way relativists twist anything to make it suit their own perceived "truths?" There is no clear standard for the young to adhere to? Values don't mean much?

Perhaps we should try that approach in the real world. Anyone knows the phone # of the Gates and the Trumps? I need a few other things...perhaps if I say, "please...."

And usually, the child who try to stand up for his rights is made by an adult to give up that right.

I've seen moms (perhaps afraid to be criticized) would urge their child to give in to the demands of the intruding child. "You have to share, hon....."

It would be nice to see the mom of the intruding boy to correct her child and say, "Go play with another toy."

Thinking about it, although bullying has been around all this time, it was never as "phenomenal" as what's happening now. The kind of meanness about it is also staggering (the latest I've heard is the video of someone peeing on a homeless man's face).

Along the way, we must've done something terribly wrong.

Edited August 10, 2012 by betsy

[cybercoma]

Christians are not bullying gays. In fact, if you really analyze it....it's the other way around.

Charles Anthony better put me in the cooler because the post that I just erased in place of this one would have definitely warranted it.

[cybercoma]

Like in a sandbox. A bully grabs the toy another child has, even though he can have other toys available.

Hello!? Nobody's taking marriage away from Christians. It's the Christians trying to take marriage away from gays! Give your head a shake. This is about equality. Calling marriage something else for gay people is not equality. It's dehumanizing and it keeps them on the outside. "Civil unions" or "domestic partnerships" will always be considered lesser relationships by dirt bags that have nothing but contempt for gay relationships. Equality is only possible if they're allowed to marry and call it marriage. Stop being so spiteful to people that just want to love each other and marry like anyone else. By the bye, Christians don't have the market cornered on marriage. People get married in every culture.

[cybercoma]

On the other hand, if the kid with the toy tells the other kid that he can't have one of his own, who is the bully?

[cybercoma]

You've got a very narrow view of "bullying." You don't have to buy yourself a dictionary....I'll share this with you, so listen up Kimmy: In a nutshell....

Bullying 101 for Kimmy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

Wow. Seriously?

[msj]

Well we're supposed to be discussing. You said something that to me, doesn't make sense. I'm asking you to explain what you mean. Perhaps I'm not seeing it the way you do.

You refused, saying others understood it.

I'm not pretending to be the opposite of what you're doing - whatever that means.

I'm left to draw my own conclusion: You made a statement that doesn't make sense. You were asked to clarify and explain what you mean. You refused. The reason you refused (from my perspective) is because you cannot explain it.

Fine, for the benefit of those who don't know, an explanation of my statement:

When the day comes where some pro-homosexual, anti-Christian man stocks up on hand guns and assault rifles and heads on down to the Westboro Baptist Church in Florida, opening fire and killing the Phelps clan, and then, AND THEN, some atheist, lets call her Patricia Robertson, goes on her TV program viewed by millions of people every week, and says that this is what Christians deserve as a logical end result of the old phrase "and eye for an eye" found in the Old Testament, well, then I will feel like we have reached true equality.

1) Yes, it is tongue in cheek. I certainly do not wish any of the above to occur.

2) My reference to the Westboro Baptist Chuch (the Phelps clan) - they are the rabid right wing christians who like to picket funerals of American servicemen claiming that said servicemen are dying because God is punishing the evilness in America.

3) My reference to the fictional "Patricia Robertson" is to create an atheistic equivalent to the Christian idiot known as Pat Robertson.

4) Pat Robertson is on record as blaming the shooting in the Sikh Temple in Wisconsin on atheists. Because "atheists hate god" or some such nonsense.

So, in the end, what I'm getting at is that Christians would know persecution if they were being gunned down for their religion by some rabid anti-Christian, pro-gay male.

Further evidence of this persecution would be millions of Americans watching a "Patricia Robertson" make up some cuckoo nonsense to justify such violence.

Because, hey, seeing some Christian tattooed neo-Nazi freak gun down a bunch of Sikh's must be the fault of the "atheists [who] hate god" rather than the Christian right who justify such violence by blaming atheists, gays, satanists and other boogeymen.

[msj]

And usually, the child who try to stand up for his rights is made by an adult to give up that right.

I've seen moms (perhaps afraid to be criticized) would urge their child to give in to the demands of the intruding child. "You have to share, hon....."

Who is giving up a right?

Are Christians being forced to allow gay people to marry in their churches?

Are Christians not allowed to get married anymore because gay people are?

It would be nice to see the mom of the intruding boy to correct her child and say, "Go play with another toy."

How about "go get married in your church" and, to gay people, "go get married in your civic hall" (or church to the extent that a church will allow it)?

Thinking about it, although bullying has been around all this time, it was never as "phenomenal" as what's happening now. The kind of meanness about it is also staggering (the latest I've heard is the video of someone peeing on a homeless man's face).

Along the way, we must've done something terribly wrong.

Yes, because those days when Medieval Christians were torturing Jews, "heretics," and other people were the good ol' days!

[betsy]

2) My reference to the Westboro Baptist Chuch (the Phelps clan) - they are the rabid right wing christians who like to picket funerals of American servicemen claiming that said servicemen are dying because God is punishing the evilness in America.

You might find this thread at a Christian Forum - what other Christians think of Westboro - interesting.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/rules-and-policy-discussion/westboro-baptist-church-51412/

Ooops. I accidentally deleted my previous comment about, "every group has zealots!"

Edited August 11, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Who is giving up a right?

Are Christians being forced to allow gay people to marry in their churches?

Are Christians not allowed to get married anymore because gay people are?

How about "go get married in your church" and, to gay people, "go get married in your civic hall" (or church to the extent that a church will allow it)?

Yes, because those days when Medieval Christians were torturing Jews, "heretics," and other people were the good ol' days!

We're starting to go around in circles here. It's already been explained....backtrack and read my posts.

Edited August 11, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Btw, this is the first time I've heard of Matt Epling. I tried googling what happened to him....all I got are loose report that he was given the anti-gay hazing by some seniors in school - or something like that.

How does this connect with Christians? Can anyone cite an article about his bullying?