Persecuted Christians In America!

[bleeding heart]

double

Edited November 11, 2012 by bleeding heart

[bleeding heart]

triple! sorry

Edited November 11, 2012 by bleeding heart

[Guest American Woman]

I Googled 21% of Canadians attend weekly religious service.

Interesting. Apparently less than 20% of Americans do.

[Michael Hardner]

But I think the number who self-label as religious is a majority.

I guess that's ... interesting.

I assumed you were claiming that religious people are discriminated agaisnt by non-religious people...and I was wondering how that could logically be the case, since those with the power and wherewithal to discriminate in any meaningful way are themselves, by and large, religious people.

What, pray (!) tell is 'the power to discriminate' ?

People make assumptions, exclude, and create unwelcome environments for others in all aspects of life. Inclusion is a very difficult characteristic to maintain in any community. I know, as I am part of a community that demands inclusion and it creates difficult paradoxes. Imagine going to a faculty dinner and taking the time to make a quiet prayer just as everyone else digs in.

Again, i had thought you were speaking of non-believers discriminating or persecuting believers.

I mean discrimination as the opposite of inclusion. It happens all the time, and there's only so much you can do.

Here's the source for 21% attendance in 2005:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-630-x/2008001/article/10650-eng.pdf

[Bonam]

Pat's statement is completely absurd, I don't know why people are discussing it seriously.

First, religious people are not a minority in the US (MH: attending Church weekly is not a requirement for being religious / Christian).

Second, he argues that the discrimination they face is "more terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history". I wonder how many American evangelicals would prefer life in a Nazi extermination camp compared to their current lot in life? Pat makes that exact comparison and with a straight face says that the current discrimination is "more terrible". A loathsome, foolish, statement that immediately classifies him as a nutjob.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Bonam

[Michael Hardner]

First, religious people are not a minority in the US (MH: attending Church weekly is not a requirement for being religious / Christian).

If you want to take people who are self-identified as religious, then ok. You still have a minority of religious people who are practicing. Presumably they would be more of a visible minority so to speak.

Second, he argues that the discrimination they face is "more terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history". I wonder how many American evangelicals would prefer life in a Nazi extermination camp compared to their current lot in life? Pat makes that exact comparison and with a straight face says that the current discrimination is "more terrible". A loathsome, foolish, statement that immediately classifies him as a nutjob.

Agreed. Exaggeration and hyperbole today threatens our very lives on a minute by minute basis and the world will soon be destroyed before the end of this sentence.

[bleeding heart]

What, pray (!) tell is 'the power to discriminate' ?

I said "meaningful" discrimination.

That is, people looking askance at you at a faculty dinner is not the same as political or legal discrimination.

Of which religious people face approximately zero compared to non-religious people....that is, both face roughly the same amount...close to nil.

People make assumptions, exclude, and create unwelcome environments for others in all aspects of life. Inclusion is a very difficult characteristic to maintain in any community.

In other words, it is everywhere, and derives from virtually all aspects of community life, albeit in various ways, dependent on said community.

I'm not trying to be combative about it; I'm only wondering what religion, especially or particularly, has to do with any of it?

Heck, once at a little gathering, my wife mentioned--casually, as an aside to a related discussion--that we were atheists. The reaction was amazing! A roomful of agnostics acting as if we had just blasphemed.

But if I think of this behaviour as discriminatory....I dunno. By the letter, maybe, but not by the spirit of what I think when I hear "discrimination."

Edited November 11, 2012 by bleeding heart

[Michael Hardner]

I said "meaningful" discrimination.

That is, people looking askance at you at a faculty dinner is not the same as political or legal discrimination.

What about people making comments ? Making comments in front of others ? Where are you drawing the line ? You'll find out pretty quickly that it moves around depending on what, who... We're human beings so it's natural for that to happen. But let's not pretend that it doesn't.

I'm not trying to be combative about it; I'm only wondering what religion, especially or particularly, has to do with any of it?

It's exclusionary - whether based on religion, lack of religion, gender, what have you.

Heck, once at a little gathering, my wife mentioned--casually, as an aside to a related discussion--that we were atheists. The reaction was amazing! A roomful of agnostics acting as if we had just blasphemed.

Yes, it's hard to be inclusive as these agnostics showed. Or maybe that was just your perception. No, there's no reason to be combative but when it comes to exclusion we all have to look in the mirror first, IMO.

[jbg]

Interesting. Apparently less than 20% of Americans do.

I attend Torah Study on Saturday mornings (or at least most of them). Not sure if that counts.

[kimmy]

Finally! Some honest to goodness persecution up in your area!

The Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) is suing the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) for the IRS' refusal to investigate dozens of instances of churches telling their parishioners who to vote for (STFU.)

The churches have guaranteed freedom of speech, of course. They can tell their parishioners they're going to Hell if they vote for Obama if they wish to. What is not guaranteed, however, is their tax-exempt status. The law is that tax-exempt entities must refrain from electioneering.

The FFRF has submitted a long list of violations, including full-page newspaper ads placed by the Billy Graham ministry as well as Peoria Bishop Daniel Jenky's statements (Jenky is the obnoxious asshole who compared President Obama to Adolf Hitler earlier this year.)

While filing this lawsuit after the election might appear to be closing the gate after the horses have run away, I think the timing is wise. Filing it before the election would have only given Jenky et al more to talk about. Filing it after the election denies them that talking point and gives the courts some time to deal with this before the 2014 elections.

-k

Edited November 15, 2012 by kimmy

[msj]

Interesting. Apparently less than 20% of Americans do.

That's quite a change from 2010 then. Link Wikipedia comparison.

[cybercoma]

Doesn't really deserve its own thread, but an Oklahoma judge sentenced a man to attend church.

[Guest]

I don't think the ACLU will be too popular with the kid if he has to go to jail instead.

[The_Squid]

Doesn't really deserve its own thread, but an Oklahoma judge sentenced a man to attend church.

The alternative sentencing is quite progressive. I doubt the church thing is constitutional though. Although, the kid wouldn't be wise to appeal or make a stink about it.

[cybercoma]

Constitutionally the judge can't force someone to go to church, although the alternative sentencing is commendable.

[wyly]

Constitutionally the judge can't force someone to go to church, although the alternative sentencing is commendable.

yup it's commendable but wrong...I'm sure there are other things he could have him do...now if the kid is a christian there's no foul at all, I didn't see anything the article stating he wasn't...

[cybercoma]

Doesn't matter if he's Christian. You can't legally oblige someone to church.

[kimmy]

Last time something like this came up (earlier this year, I believe...) the legal opinion I read was (if I recall correctly) that this would be an acceptable form of alternative sentence provided that:

-the person being sentenced were free to choose which church he would attend

-equivalent alternative sentences be available to anyone without regard for what faith (or lack thereof) they follow.

-k

[wyly]

Doesn't matter if he's Christian. You can't legally oblige someone to church.

maybe but it's not a big deal if attends a church he was a member of...now if he was muslim, jew or atheist told to attend a christian church that would be a serious error...

[wyly]

Last time something like this came up (earlier this year, I believe...) the legal opinion I read was (if I recall correctly) that this would be an acceptable form of alternative sentence provided that:

-the person being sentenced were free to choose which church he would attend

-equivalent alternative sentences be available to anyone without regard for what faith (or lack thereof) they follow.

-k

sensible...

[Merlin]

Christians are persecuted daily in every way in every facet of public life. If anyone is seen wearing a cross they are laughed at and made fun of for their beliefs but if someone is a Muslim then they are congratulated and patted on the head. Christians and Jews are heavily persecuted and viewed as war mongers while Muslims are the victims who never do anything wrong.

[cybercoma]

If anyone is seen wearing a cross they are laughed at and made fun of for their beliefs but if someone is a Muslim then they are congratulated and patted on the head. Christians and Jews are heavily persecuted and viewed as war mongers while Muslims are the victims who never do anything wrong.

We've already established that your beliefs have absolutely no basis in reality, but thanks for reiterating.

[Mighty AC]

Another example of a Christian being persecuted. This poor man is being forced to teach evolution in science class. The heathen masses have even told him that he can no longer burn crosses into the skin of non-believers with a Tesla coil. It's hard to believe that Christians have to endure such heinous violations of free speech and academic freedom.

Christian Teacher Burned Crosses onto Students' Arms and Pushed Creationism -- Now He's Claims His "Free Speech" Was Violated?

[cybercoma]

This thread is the athiest Christian pity party.

[Michael Hardner]

Another example of a Christian being persecuted. This poor man is being forced to teach evolution in science class.

Sigh.... what does your anecdote mean to the rest of us ?