The TTC thread

[Michael Hardner]

Again, I'm going to point this out - the system has now started breaking. We have now exceeded capacity for the first time in my memory.

You'll probably see coverage of this in the coming weeks and months but you heard it here first.

[TheNewTeddy]

There isn't enough money to fund the system without increased subsidies.

[Mr.Canada]

There isn't enough money to fund the system without increased subsidies.

If we get the unions out or under control and stop paying bus drivers $50/hr+. More part time drivers and less full time drivers, reduce management size and increase advertising/consumable revenue I think it's definitely possible.

[Black Dog]

If we get the unions out or under control and stop paying bus drivers $50/hr+. More part time drivers and less full time drivers, reduce management size and increase advertising/consumable revenue I think it's definitely possible.

If the Rob Ford experience has taught us nothing else, it's that people tend to dramatically overestimate the amount of waste in government operations and overestimate the potential of the private sector. Just look at Ford's failed subway plan.

Toronto transit riders are currently subsidized at an average rate of 87 cents per transit trip. In New York City, that number is $1.25. In Vancouver, it’s more than three times as much at $2.62. If our governments supported transit like they do out west, the TTC’s annual subsidy would be up to a billion dollars higher than it currently is.

City and provincial budgets starve TTC

Better transit funding from all levels of government should be a no-brainer. Better transit means less time spent in gridlock or waiting for a subway train that isn't jam packed which means improved productivity and economic activity.

[TheNewTeddy]

If we get the unions out or under control and stop paying bus drivers $50/hr+. More part time drivers and less full time drivers, reduce management size and increase advertising/consumable revenue I think it's definitely possible.

Bus drivers make closer to 25 an hour IIRC

As well, if we do get public sector unions under control, all of them, we could cut taxes in half, double spending, and cut the deficit.

Sadly, this will take time and political will.

More sadly, even the conservative and Conservative parties are unwilling to do so. They'd rather cut income supports for the poor and seniors, or, cut programs or program funding. It's easier than battling the unions.

[Jiblethead]

new story pertaining to TTC http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-city-manager-recommends-10-ways-to-raise-2-billion-for-transit-expansion/article4580012/

[TheNewTeddy]

I've considered a personal income tax, but would only support it if people who live in the city get a refund, and people who work in the city but do not live here have to pay without any refund. These funds should go not to the TTC but to GO Transit.

Sales Taxes are sorely needed by this city, though I'd support .5%, dedicated to the TTC.

Property Taxes are high enough as they are

Tolls are not terribly useful with the transportation network we have here in the city.

Fuel Taxes are a good idea. A better idea is to exempt the TTC from fuel taxes.

Vehicle Taxes are stupid, only done because none of the above are permitted.

Parking Levy - wtf?

Land Transfer - same as vehicle taxes.

Development Charges - should be reduced.

[Black Dog]

TTC Chair proposes rush hour car ban on King Street

Desperate times. I think it's a good idea to explore. TTC ridership on King vastly exceeds vehicle traffic (which is predominately single-occupant vehicles). Worth looking at IMO.

[Boges]

This might work if they remove all public transit from another parallel artery. (Like Queen!)

Edited June 20, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

This might work if they remove all public transit from another parallel artery. (Like Queen!)

Doesn't really solve the issue though. Where are those people gonna go? I'd be willing to bet Queen isn't far behind King in terms of it's ridership.

[Boges]

Doesn't really solve the issue though. Where are those people gonna go? I'd be willing to bet Queen isn't far behind King in terms of it's ridership.

But you'd be able to double the ridership on a comparable east-west artery. And you'd have another artery streetcar free.

[Black Dog]

But you'd be able to double the ridership on a comparable east-west artery. And you'd have another artery streetcar free.

More ridership isn't the goal, though. King is already full to bursting. The point is to make the commute smoother and more efficient for the existing riders.

[Boges]

But then where do the cars go? It'll make another corridor busy as well. I guess that's not a concern of yours.

I guess a pilot project in 2015 during a time the city should be buzzing with transit users couldn't hurt.

[cybercoma]

You know what would solve the TTC problem? Put tolls on the 401 entering Toronto city limits. Otherwise, Ontario taxpayers aren't going to like the solution of Queen's Park charging everyone at tax time to improve Toronto's transit.

[Boges]

You know what would solve the TTC problem? Put tolls on the 401 entering Toronto city limits. Otherwise, Ontario taxpayers aren't going to like the solution of Queen's Park charging everyone at tax time to improve Toronto's transit.

The 401 is a provincial highway and the only real way to from one end of the Province to another. There's already a toll alternative on that route.

Also plenty of areas on the 401 experience congestion not just Torornto. Tolling the 401 will never happen.

Now tolling the DVP and the Gardiner should be done. That's a Toronto run highway and most people using it are commuters.

There's a thread about this Big Move foolishness. Of the 4 or 5 "revenue tools" proposed by Metrolinx, tolling any major highway wasn't part of the recommendations.

They do want to expand the HOV lane system to option HOT lanes or as people in LA call them: Lexus lanes. But I suspect that won't generate much money. People already have the 407 if they want to avoid traffic and they don't bother.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Boges

[cybercoma]

So what's the exception to tolling the 401? I don't understand. It should be tolled precisely because it's the only way from one side of the province to the other. It should be tolled because there's an alternate toll route already. Tolls will cause congestion. That's true. However, something needs to be done to generate enough revenue to update the transit system and unless you have a better plan, I'm not sure what else Toronto can do.

[Boges]

So what's the exception to tolling the 401? I don't understand. It should be tolled precisely because it's the only way from one side of the province to the other. It should be tolled because there's an alternate toll route already. Tolls will cause congestion. That's true. However, something needs to be done to generate enough revenue to update the transit system and unless you have a better plan, I'm not sure what else Toronto can do.

I haven't seen you being engaged in the debate about the Big Move much. A thread was started a few month ago by me.

Tolling the 401 wasn't even on the long list of proposals by Metrolinx. They didn't even to propose to toll the Gardiner or institute a congestion charge. Probably because the start up costs on all those would be high.

The proposals by Metrolinx are mostly just tax hikes like an additional Gas Tax and a hike to the HST. They also want to increase Development Charges. I learned today that Toronto has the cheapest DCs of all of the GTA which they want to increase.

Gas Taxes and a hike to the HST probably won't ever pass the Legislature. With the HST they need approval from Ottawa and the CPC has flatly said they refuse to do it. With the Gas Tax, the NDP will look like massive hypocrites if they demand a reduction in Auto Insurance for average drivers BUT say a punitive increase in the Gas Tax (which will increase the price of everything to everyone) is OK.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Boges

[cybercoma]

Ontario isn't Toronto. An increase to the HST is a bastard move, same with a gas excise (if it's extending to ALL of Ontario).

[Boges]

Ontario isn't Toronto. An increase to the HST is a bastard move, same with a gas excise (if it's extending to ALL of Ontario).

We are in full agreement. A good majority of the Big Move are improvements to transit in Toronto so to make the rest of the province pay regressive taxes to fund is wrong.

But the 401 is a Provincial Highway. If Toronto wants to Toll the 401 to help Toronto transit, then what's to stop Mississauga, Cambridge, Kitchener, London, Windsor, Oshawa or any community the 401 runs through to put up a toll booth to help fund local revenue of any kind?

It'll quickly become the most expensive highway ever.

[cybercoma]

You might be right, but the 401 isn't in Windsor. It becomes Hwy 3 (then Huron Church Road) before it hits the Ambassador Bridge (new improvements notwithstanding).

What Toronto could do is put the tolls on the collector lanes. Entering the city by vehicle. You're going to pay a toll. Don't want to pay the toll. Take the GO Train and transit (and pay your fare).

[Black Dog]

We are in full agreement. A good majority of the Big Move are improvements to transit in Toronto so to make the rest of the province pay regressive taxes to fund is wrong.

Why?

[Boges]

Why?

Because new, province-wide, taxes made up to reduce congestion in one part of the province is simply unfair.

People pay their share of taxes (based on income or usage) and everyone is entitled to a set level of services. In this instance everyone would be paying a brand set of taxes and in places outside the GTA they'll get nothing for it and for the people in the GTA suburbs that don't border Toronto they'll get very little.

If this was going to be fair then people who contribute to the congestion should be forced to pay. Not everyone who buys a litre of tax (province-wide) or people who buy any consumer good (province-wide). To pay for a plan, that I don't believe was thought out very well.

[Black Dog]

Because new, province-wide, taxes made up to reduce congestion in one part of the province is simply unfair.

People pay their share of taxes (based on income or usage) and everyone is entitled to a set level of services. In this instance everyone would be paying a brand set of taxes and in places outside the GTA they'll get nothing for it and for the people in the GTA suburbs that don't border Toronto they'll get very little.

If this was going to be fair then people who contribute to the congestion should be forced to pay. Not everyone who buys a litre of tax (province-wide) or people who buy any consumer good (province-wide). To pay for a plan, that I don't believe was thought out very well.

My taxes go to lots of services I don't use and don't benefit from. That's unfair too. But that's how taxes work: you don't get to opt out. Imagine of all the taxpayers out of Toronto's 5.5 million citizens decided that they didn't want to shell out to build roads in rural Ontario.

Of course the simple fact is, people in Ontario outside the GTA benefit from measures that would make the province's biggest city more productive and competitive.

[Boges]

My taxes go to lots of services I don't use and don't benefit from. That's unfair too. But that's how taxes work: you don't get to opt out. Imagine of all the taxpayers out of Toronto's 5.5 million citizens decided that they didn't want to shell out to build roads in rural Ontario.

Of course the simple fact is, people in Ontario outside the GTA benefit from measures that would make the province's biggest city more productive and competitive.

And Toronto benefits from being a place that people want to live, work and visit. Toronto also charges far less property taxes than many places in nearby cities because the Province (during the Miller years) allowed it to charge taxes above and beyond provincial taxes. Now the current mayor doesn't like that but that's an internal problem.

We see from the $150 million that the province is attempting to take away from Toronto to pay for social services, that Toronto is doing quite well, when it comes to money from the province.

A 5 cent/litre Gas tax to pay for congestion in Toronto might be financially crippling to someone who has no other realistic transportation options elsewhere in the province. As someone in Toronto, who uses public transit, you might not care. But I guarantee plenty of people do, both opposition parties included.

So, as I've said many times, getting these specific revenue tools passed into law will be very difficult for Wynne and Co.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

And Toronto benefits from being a place that people want to live, work and visit. Toronto also charges far less property taxes than many places in nearby cities because the Province (during the Miller years) allowed it to charge taxes above and beyond provincial taxes. Now the current mayor doesn't like that but that's an internal problem.

We see from the $150 million that the province is attempting to take away from Toronto to pay for social services, that Toronto is doing quite well, when it comes to money from the province.

Not sure what your point here is. Toronto can't afford this stuff on its own.

A 5 cent/litre Gas tax to pay for congestion in Toronto might be financially crippling to someone who has no other realistic transportation options elsewhere in the province. As someone in Toronto, who uses public transit, you might not care. But I guarantee plenty of people do, both opposition parties included.

So, as I've said many times, getting these specific revenue tools passed into law will be very difficult for Wynne and Co.

Doesn't answer the question of why I can't hold back a portion of my tax bill from things in other parts of the province that don't benefit me.