The TTC thread

[Black Dog]

Yes they do. To pay for things under federal jurisdiction. Torontonians also pay provincial income tax and property taxes which go towards their own municipal transit.

Like highways in Tuktoyaktuk? Hockey arenas in Quebec City? Um, transit lines in Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary?

i never would have taken you for an anti-public transit person, but here we are.

[cybercoma]

Like highways in Tuktoyaktuk? Hockey arenas in Quebec City? Um, transit lines in Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary?

i never would have taken you for an anti-public transit person, but here we are.

Calling me anti public transit is a ridiculous strawman. Where did I ever say I was against public transit? I'm against the federal government paying for things that clearly are not in their jurisdiction for the sake of pandering for votes. Yes that includes Hockey Arenas in Quebec City.

[Black Dog]

Calling me anti public transit is a ridiculous strawman. Where did I ever say I was against public transit? I'm against the federal government paying for things that clearly are not in their jurisdiction for the sake of pandering for votes. Yes that includes Hockey Arenas in Quebec City.

Well the simple reality is, building public transit is an insanely expensive proposition, so expensive that no local governments have the capacity to do it alone. If the feds aren't involved nothing gets built. So no, it's not a strawman to call you anti-transit, since its the logical end point of your argument. No feds=no funds=no transit.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Black Dog

[cybercoma]

Well the simple reality is, building public transit is an insanely expensive proposition, so expensive that no local governments have the capacity to do it alone. If the feds aren't involved nothing gets built. So no, it's not a strawman to call you anti-transit, since its the logical end point of your argument. No feds=no funds=no transit.

It's only a problem because you evidently lack imagination. You've moved on from your strawman fallacy to a false dichotomy fallacy. There are myriad options between no fed money and no transit. Municipalities need to be given the capacity to generate the revenues they need to afford public transit or they need to come up with better more affordable solutions.

[Black Dog]

It's only a problem because you evidently lack imagination. You've moved on from your strawman fallacy to a false dichotomy fallacy. There are myriad options between no fed money and no transit.

Recognizing reality is not a fallacy. You say there are other options: what are they? Why aren't other Canadian jurisdictions employing them? Why does every other G7 country have some form of predictable and dedicated funding for transit, but we don't?

Municipalities need to be given the capacity to generate the revenues they need to afford public transit or they need to come up with better more affordable solutions.

Ontario's recent foray into new revenue tools actually underscored the need for federal investment. Squeezing Ontario taxpayers more would net $2 billion a year. That's roughly what the ridiculous proposed three stop Scarborough extension will cost on its own (and that's with the feds coming in with cash). No imagine the costs of a (much needed) downtown relief line in Toronto. Or a extension of the Canada Line in Vancouver (also paid for in part with fed cash)

It's all well and good to suggest, contrary to practical experience here and around the world, that local governments should pay the freight for local transit, but without a realistic idea of how, it's just knee-jerk contrianism.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Black Dog

[Boges]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ttc-probes-video-of-abandoned-bus-1.2650014

Yeah Civil servant stereotypes are totally unwarranted.

A transit user posted a video online that appears to show the aftermath aboard a TTC bus after the driver allegedly 'abandoned' the bus and left passengers stranded on Tuesday afternoon.

Bulario can be heard saying in the video that bus driver left the bus because he had to go home at 1:30 p.m. ET. He then shows his watch, which indicates that he began shooting the video shortly before about 1:50 p.m.

"He didn't communicate anything to us. He didn't tell us anything. We would have been satisfied with that," Bulario told CBC News.

"He just disembarked, carried on with his own way and we were left stranded."

Bulario says that he called the TTC to inform them of the situation while it was ongoing, but didn't hear back.

[Black Dog]

Yeah Civil servant stereotypes are totally unwarranted.

Not sure you get how stereotypes work.

[BubberMiley]

Even though bus drivers aren't part of the civil service, this one extreme example should exemplify all public workers.

[Boges]

In what other job would any worker think that just walking off the job, without replacement, would even be remotely acceptable?

[Black Dog]

In what other job would any worker think that just walking off the job, without replacement, would even be remotely acceptable?

Off the top of my head I'd say you can probably find someone like that in any occupation.

[BubberMiley]

In what other job would any worker think that just walking off the job, without replacement, would even be remotely acceptable?

Who said it was acceptable? I believe it was a story on CBC because it wasn't acceptable. If there was a consensus among bus drivers that it is acceptable, as you suggest, then it would probably be happening in everyday life and not just in random news stories.

[Boges]

Union leader doesn't seem to bothered.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/21/ttc-union-boss-says-driver-abandoning-passengers-in-bus-for-30-minutes-not-that-big-of-a-deal/

“It’s not that big of a deal,” he said. “We do this [driver relief] thousands upon thousands of times a week without any problems.”

Mr. Kinnear said the TTC union apologizes to passengers who were inconvenienced but said there are bigger problems Torontonians should be concerned about.

“It just amazes me that people get bogged down on these little insignificant incidents rather than focusing on what’s really happening in this continuing deterioration of our system,” he said. “The people are frustrated with the TTC. They’re frustrated with inadequate service, overcrowding… Those things are the direct result of upper levels of government not funding it appropriately.”

He used the opportunity to beg for more money.

[BubberMiley]

Union leader doesn't seem to bothered.

Probably because it was just one guy and an isolated incident.

[Boges]

Probably because it was just one guy and an isolated incident.

Actually, because of the Gotcha nature of social media, there are multiple media reports of people filming TTC workers not doing their job. Whether it be texting while driving, leaving a bus to go to Tim's or sleeping on the job.

Granted I haven't heard one in awhile but we'd never heard about it if people weren't willing to what this guy did.

The point is, this guy should be fired on the spot for leaving a bus full of passengers abandoned. Especially with the fare box sitting right there.

[BubberMiley]

The point is, this guy should be fired on the spot for leaving a bus full of passengers abandoned.

That's the point now? I thought the point was that all public workers are just like this guy, hence the stereotype.

[Boges]

Never said all.

But the stereotypes of the pampered civil servant certainly seem to apply in the incident.

[BubberMiley]

But the stereotypes of the pampered civil servant certainly seem to apply in the incident.

Because he's not a civil servant and there was an article in the CBC criticizing his outrageous behaviour?

[Boges]

From Wiki

The term civil service can refer to either a branch of governmental service in which individuals are employed (hired) on the basis of professional merit as proven by competitive examinations; or the body of employees in any government agency other than the military.

A civil servant or public servant is a person in the public sector employed for a government department or agency. The extent of civil servants of a state as part of the "civil service" varies from country to country. In the United Kingdom, for instance, only Crown (national government) employees are referred to as civil servants whereas county or city employees are not.

Hmm I learned something today. Would government employees apply?

I just posted a CBC article because you get grief for not providing links on this forum now. This was a story all across the Toronto media yesterday. Because it's outrageous that someone thinks he can do this. The reaction from the Union head seems to suggest that there is a culture where such behaviour can be seen as "not a big deal".

The media jumps on this because TTC employees are extraordinarily well compensated for what they do.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Boges

[BubberMiley]

The reaction from the Union head seems to suggest that there is a culture where such behaviour can be seen as "not a big deal".

You're projecting again. The union leader was just indicating that it is not indicative of widespread behaviour in the public service, despite your attempts to suggest (without evidence) that it is.

[Boges]

You're projecting again. The union leader was just indicating that it is not indicative of widespread behaviour in the public service, despite your attempts to suggest (without evidence) that it is.

There is some evidence.

http://www.thestar.com/news/ttc/2011/01/28/ttc_to_passengers_dont_snap_texting_drivers.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/union-defends-supposed-sleepy-ttc-worker/article1315887/

http://www.torontolife.com/daily-dish/2008/07/10/urban-decoder-public-transit-10/

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2010/04/14/ttc_bus_driver_charged_with_assaulting_teen_passenger.html

Of course it doesn't reach the news every day. So the idea that problems are systematic is subjective. Especially when two people that don't use the system are debating the issue. One could argue the guy RoFo hired, Andy Byford, has greatly improved the quality of TTC. As I can remember when stories like the above were common in Toronto media. Not so anymore.

I just think what this specific driver did was especially egregious. And the Union leader's Meh IMHO is quite off putting. What's a driver got to do for the Union head to publicly condemn a member?

Edited May 22, 2014 by Boges

[BubberMiley]

What's a driver got to do for the Union head to publicly condemn a member?

Probably go through a proper review of what happened, rather than jump to conclusions and call for the guy to be fired based on a random news article.

[Boges]

Probably go through a proper review of what happened, rather than jump to conclusions and call for the guy to be fired based on a random news article.

You mean random Youtube Video that's been picked up by just about every Toronto news outlet?

[BubberMiley]

You mean random Youtube Video that's been picked up by just about every Toronto news outlet?

Yes.

[Black Dog]

Union leader doesn't seem to bothered.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/21/ttc-union-boss-says-driver-abandoning-passengers-in-bus-for-30-minutes-not-that-big-of-a-deal/

He used the opportunity to beg for more money.

First: you're misinterpreting his comments. He''s saying the incident is not a big deal in light of all the thousands of times drivers trade off at shift's end without incident. Basically, he's saying it's an outlier. He's obviously not going to make any comment about the right or wrong of the specific incident while his employee is under investigation.

As for the begging for money thing, dude has a point.

Never said all.

But the stereotypes of the pampered civil servant certainly seem to apply in the incident.

I'm not sure things would be that different if the system was privately operated. Is the fact the guy is a city worker make this somehow worse? Bad customer service is bad customer service.

[Boges]

Slow Clap TTC

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/07/29/al-quds-day-hateful-comments-prompt-ttc-probe

TORONTO - The TTC is reviewing video footage from a controversial Al Quds Day event which shows a transit employee in work wear making anti-Israeli comments.

The footage, taken Saturday, shows a man who doesn’t identify himself, talking to a crew from Sun News Network.

The man, wearing a TTC janitor’s shirt with a crest on the arm, shouts into the camera.

“There should be a free Gaza, free Palestine,” the man says. “And if they continue, now we will go from here there and we will kill the Israel. We will kill all Israel. And we will show the power. What we can do further. Thank you.”

“You’re going to kill Israel?” the reporter says.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1477979/ttc-driver-who-ran-red-light-relieved-of-duty/

TORONTO – The bus driver who was filmed speeding through a red light and swerving around a pedestrian is “no longer with the TTC” because of the “compelling” evidence, according to the transit commission.

But the union is asking them to be compassionate.

The evidence was a dashcam video shot by a vehicle trailing the TTC bus.

The video shows the bus driving through the intersection of Ionview Road and Eglinton Avenue in the far right lane. The bus doesn’t slow for the red light and has to swerve around a person who attempts to cross the street.

“I thought she was going to die there,” a person in the vehicle can be heard saying in the video.

Who wants to be this lady gets re-instated cuz the Union kicks up a fuss. As for the first guy, probably won't even get disciplined.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Boges