PrimeNumber Posted March 2, 2015 Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 Important rules like...wearing a suit to practice. Yes important rules like wearing a suit to a team meeting. Not a practice. If a player doesn't give a crap about that, what will they give a crap about? These people are professional athletes that are expected to do what is asked of them. If they fail to do a simple task then they are a poison. Kane is a player younger guys look up to, when they see someone act like they are to good for team rules they may have that mentality. We don't want that in Winnipeg. Buffalo can have him and his ego. We'll see who has the better season next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeNumber Posted March 2, 2015 Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) If MightyAC thinks partying gets in the way of winning, no one tell him about the dynasty-era Oilers or the '70s Bruins. Far different era. We are dealing with athletes that make guys from that era look like they were pulled out of a beer league today. Edited March 2, 2015 by PrimeNumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Yes important rules like wearing a suit to a team meeting. Not a practice Ah so even less important than practice. If a player doesn't give a crap about that, what will they give a crap about? These people are professional athletes that are expected to do what is asked of them. If they fail to do a simple task then they are a poison. Except AFAIK there was never any question about Kane's commitment to doing the stuff that mattered to the team's success on the ice. That's all that should matter. Kane is a player younger guys look up to, when they see someone act like they are to good for team rules they may have that mentality. Uh, Kane is a younger guy. We don't want that in Winnipeg. Buffalo can have him and his ego. We'll see who has the better season next year. Yeah that's not stacking the deck at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeNumber Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Ah so even less important than practice. It's obvious by that statement you haven't played many competative team sports. When I played hockey and football, we had team rules for example dressing up for game days. Anyone that didn't had to suffer the consequences which was often ridicule from your teammates and having to do a little extra around the locker room and during practice. It showed that you respect your team mates. When you act like a baby after that ridicule, it was certain you would be sitting out for a game. If you didn't show up for a game after, it was certain you didn't have a spot on the team anymore. When you don't care about simple team rules, it means you don't care about your team. Based on Kanes statements about playing for the Jets that had been fairly evident already. So he should go. Except AFAIK there was never any question about Kane's commitment to doing the stuff that mattered to the team's success on the ice. That's all that should matter. Should it? Do you want a guy who never shows up to practice, has an over inflated ego, doesn't care about his team mates and couldn't give a crap about the organization but plays great. Or would you want someone who is mediocre but brings a lot more to team chemistry, the locker room and teams image? I bet you the latter wins you more Championships. Uh, Kane is a younger guy. He's 23 years old with 6 years of NHL experience. You don't think younger players looked up to other players of Kane's calibre or higher calibre players like Toews, Ovi, or Crosby at 23? Yeah that's not stacking the deck at all. It's not when you consider we were the Atlanta Thrashers over 4 seasons ago and they were the Buffalo Sabres that made the playoffs. We are making better decisions. The trading of Kane will be is one of them. Edited March 3, 2015 by PrimeNumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 If MightyAC thinks partying gets in the way of winning, no one tell him about the dynasty-era Oilers or the '70s Bruins. A little out of touch I see. Letting anyone act as though they are bigger or better than the team destroys chemistry and likely leads to infighting. Concepts like honour, commitment and respect are extremely important in high level team sports. Many cocky, young players like Kane or Seguin need to dressed down before they become productive team players. Some figure it out and become professionals, some can't and become cancers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 It's obvious by that statement you haven't played many competative team sports. You're wrong there. When I played hockey and football, we had team rules for example dressing up for game days. Anyone that didn't had to suffer the consequences which was often ridicule from your teammates and having to do a little extra around the locker room and during practice. It showed that you respect your team mates. When you act like a baby after that ridicule, it was certain you would be sitting out for a game. If you didn't show up for a game after, it was certain you didn't have a spot on the team anymore. When you don't care about simple team rules, it means you don't care about your team. Based on Kanes statements about playing for the Jets that had been fairly evident already. So he should go. You sound like a regular Richie Incognito. Should it? Do you want a guy who never shows up to practice, has an over inflated ego, doesn't care about his team mates and couldn't give a crap about the organization but plays great. Or would you want someone who is mediocre but brings a lot more to team chemistry, the locker room and teams image? I bet you the latter wins you more Championships. Is...is this a real question? He's 23 years old with 6 years of NHL experience. You don't think younger players looked up to other players of Kane's calibre or higher calibre players like Toews, Ovi, or Crosby at 23? 23 years old is still young in my books. It's not when you consider we were the Atlanta Thrashers over 4 seasons ago and they were the Buffalo Sabres that made the playoffs. We are making better decisions. The trading of Kane will be is one of them. Four years ago is four years ago. The Jets are only now becoming respectable. The Sabres are unabashedly tanking. A little out of touch I see. Letting anyone act as though they are bigger or better than the team destroys chemistry and likely leads to infighting. Concepts like honour, commitment and respect are extremely important in high level team sports. Many cocky, young players like Kane or Seguin need to dressed down before they become productive team players. Some figure it out and become professionals, some can't and become cancers. In my experience, the people who care most about these things are pluggers (coughDonCherrycough) who hide behind this honour stuff because they don't have god-given talent. Then you have your Patrick Kanes, your Chris Prongers, your PK Subbans... Lost in all this is no one has any actual idea what was going on in that dressing room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 In my experience, the people who care most about these things are pluggers (coughDonCherrycough) who hide behind this honour stuff because they don't have god-given talent. Then you have your Patrick Kanes, your Chris Prongers, your PK Subbans... You have little experience then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 And yours is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeNumber Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 You're wrong there. Well you must not have won many championships with that attitude. You sound like a regular Richie Incognito. Again I honestly don't think you've ever played competitive sports, and I don't mean your weekend softball league. Watching and playing are two different things. It's blatantly obvious you are a spectator. Is...is this a real question? Yes it is. When you're building or playing on a team you'd know, To the common fan, then yes, they want the Phil Kessel's. Me I'll take an Andrew Ladd any day. They'll take an Evander Kane, I'll take a Drew Stafford. We will see who wins more championships or comes closer to it. 23 years old is still young in my books. Experience in professional sports is not measured in age, it's measured in games played. Four years ago is four years ago. The Jets are only now becoming respectable. The Sabres are unabashedly tanking. And we will remain so. I'm sure a time will come soon enough when Buffalo will tire of Kane too. Lost in all this is no one has any actual idea what was going on in that dressing room. Yes, the players do and they were sick of his bullshit as evident by the events that transpired. He can rot in Buffalo now, while we take a shot at the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Well you must not have won many championships with that attitude. Again I honestly don't think you've ever played competitive sports, and I don't mean your weekend softball league. Watching and playing are two different things. It's blatantly obvious you are a spectator. And how many Cup rings do you have? LOL Yes it is. When you're building or playing on a team you'd know, To the common fan, then yes, they want the Phil Kessel's. Me I'll take an Andrew Ladd any day. They'll take an Evander Kane, I'll take a Drew Stafford. We will see who wins more championships or comes closer to it. Because individuals win championships. LOL Experience in professional sports is not measured in age, it's measured in games played. Except we're talking about mental maturity which doesn't necessarily correlate with GP. Yes, the players do and they were sick of his bullshit as evident by the events that transpired. He can rot in Buffalo now, while we take a shot at the playoffs. Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeNumber Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) And how many Cup rings do you have? LOL I have a few rings from championships in a few sports. None as prestigious as a Super Bowl, World Series or Stanley Cup. But I have won championships and I know what it takes to do so. It takes a team that can work together. Because individuals win championships. LOL No, you just proved my point. Individuals don't win championships. Team players that respect one another win championships. Except we're talking about mental maturity which doesn't necessarily correlate with GP. True but they both go hand in hand to make an experienced player. Which is why Evander Kane is not the type of player 18, 19, 20 year olds should be looking up to in a locker room. He will be 24 by the time he suits up in Buffalo and will more than likely be considered a team leader whether we wears a letter or not. He may spoil a few young players over there as well with his attitude if they don't correct him before its to late. Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. haha no. There is no fallacy here. This is exactly what happened ergo he wouldn't have not shown up to the game in Vancouver like a little baby ergo they wouldn't have traded him. I've presented the evidence a few pages ago in this thread that detailed Kane's attitudes along with things he said and did while in Winnipeg to the press, to team mates and fans. You're grasping at straws on that one bud. Edited March 3, 2015 by PrimeNumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 I have a few rings from championships in a few sports. None as prestigious as a Super Bowl, World Series or Stanley Cup. But I have won championships and I know what it takes to do so. It takes a team that can work together. OK: what sports/leagues? No, you just proved my point. Individuals don't win championships. Team players that respect one another win championships. No. Teams win championships. And teams can have all kinds of personalities. Good teams find ways to work together even when they don't like or respect each other. True but they both go hand in hand to make an experienced player. Which is why Evander Kane is not the type of player 18, 19, 20 year olds should be looking up to in a locker room. He will be 24 by the time he suits up in Buffalo and will more than likely be considered a team leader whether we wears a letter or not. He may spoil a few young players over there as well with his attitude if they don't correct him before its to late. Again, you're talking about "experienced player" I'm talking about "mature individual". Completely different things. It's interesting that Tim Murray, a guy who seems like he knows what he's doing, would bring in such a terrible human being to a team that's already one of the youngest teams in the league. Kane's punishment for being at cancer and terrible human being will be to play wing with a generational talent in Connor McDavid or a stud like Jack Eichel. Tough gig. haha no. There is no fallacy here. This is exactly what happened ergo he wouldn't have not shown up to the game in Vancouver like a little baby ergo they wouldn't have traded him. I've presented the evidence a few pages ago in this thread that detailed Kane's attitudes along with things he said and did while in Winnipeg to the press, to team mates and fans. You're grasping at straws on that one bud. I've heard all the speculation and the narratives around Kane. Like I said: there's two sides to every story. The other side is hockey is an extremely conservative culture (which you demonstrate quite well in this thread by endorsing a culture of bullying) and Kane already had a couple of strikes against him: he's young and cocky and he's black in a predominately white sport/market. Guys who march to the beat of their own drummers are seldom accepted. It doesn't surprise me that Kane might be a target for his teammates as a result. Whatever his faults, there's lots of blame to go around in that room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Yes important rules like wearing a suit to a team meeting. Not a practice. Ah so even less important than practice. Practice? We're talking about practice? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI#t=46s -k Edited March 3, 2015 by kimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 No. Teams win championships. And teams can have all kinds of personalities. Good teams find ways to work together even when they don't like or respect each other. Teams win championships and selfish, immature people can ruin team chemistry. Maybe Kane will figure it out and become less of an arrogant ass, but guys like that can kill an entire locker room. Hockey is a physical and mental grind for players. When an individual ruins locker room chemistry players are less content and the willingness to push every day wains. It's interesting that Tim Murray, a guy who seems like he knows what he's doing, would bring in such a terrible human being to a team that's already one of the youngest teams in the league. Kane's punishment for being at cancer and terrible human being will be to play wing with a generational talent in Connor McDavid or a stud like Jack Eichel. Tough gig. Some teams and coaches feel they can fix bad attitudes. Belichick is famous for it in the NFL. Buffalo has several years of rebuilding ahead of them while Winnipeg needs a little success right now. Maybe Kane can be made into a professional in that time. They had assets in need of a scenery change so it's worth the risk for them. Kane already had a couple of strikes against him: he's young and cocky and he's black in a predominately white sport/market. Guys who march to the beat of their own drummers are seldom accepted. It doesn't surprise me that Kane might be a target for his teammates as a result. Kane is the victim? C'mon, they guy refused to follow team rules. Once a team allows one player to act as though they are above the rules then discipline fades quickly. Byfuglien, also black, was the one who was trying to put the selfish ass in his place. Young cocky players are common, they are often treated like gods on the way up. Guys like Spezza, Price and Subban all had similar issues and required attitude adjustments. Some grow out of it and become useful assets and some have to be shipped out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Kane is the victim? C'mon, they guy refused to follow team rules. Once a team allows one player to act as though they are above the rules then discipline fades quickly. Byfuglien, also black, was the one who was trying to put the selfish ass in his place. Young cocky players are common, they are often treated like gods on the way up. So you think throwing a guy's clothes into a shower or whatever is a responsible and adult way to handle a violation of team rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 So you think throwing a guy's clothes into a shower or whatever is a responsible and adult way to handle a violation of team rules? In a sports situation, yes. Tie Domi told the story of how it required Mark Messier pinning him to the locker room wall by this throat before he finally clued in to the fact that his behaviour was detrimental to the team. PK Subban required a threat and major dressing down from Hal Gill. These guys play a sport where fights are started in an attempt to turn the tide or avenge a clean hit. Kane was given multiple warnings, Dustin stepped up as a leader to ensure a young a-hole wasn't going to poison an entire team. Reflecting on that incident while off for the remainder of this season may end up improving his career. Young rebuilding teams like Buffalo need strong leadership. Kane would be perfect for that role if he gets his head fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 In a sports situation, yes. That's ridiculous. Tie Domi told the story of how it required Mark Messier pinning him to the locker room wall by this throat before he finally clued in to the fact that his behaviour was detrimental to the team. That was Kent Nilsson. PK Subban required a threat and major dressing down from Hal Gill. That was a joke on Gill's part. Interestingly enough, I just read that the Habs dealt veterans Erik Cole and Josh Gorges in part because of their inability to get on with PK. These guys play a sport where fights are started in an attempt to turn the tide or avenge a clean hit. Yeah, proving my point that hockey culture is extremely backward. Kane was given multiple warnings, Dustin stepped up as a leader to ensure a young a-hole wasn't going to poison an entire team By bullying him. Reflecting on that incident while off for the remainder of this season may end up improving his career. Young rebuilding teams like Buffalo need strong leadership. Kane would be perfect for that role if he gets his head fixed. Of course the conservative, hidebound culture of hockey can never be the culprit. No sireee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Of course the conservative, hidebound culture of hockey can never be the culprit. No sireee. Favourite players can never do any wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 That was Kent Nilsson. In Domi’s second year in New York, the Rangers traded for the man widely regarded as the most team dominant leader in any sport. Messier would prove to be one of Domi’s most influential mentors both on and off the ice. At this point in his career, Domi was in his early twenties. He was cocky and despite his diminutive size, quickly developing a reputation as one of the most fearsome fighters in the league. He was undaunted trading punches with players half a foot taller than him, including Bob Probert, perhaps the greatest fighter of them all. One night, Domi had a particularly good game. He scored a goal and an assist, and was named the game’s second star. But he could not resist hot-dogging it up after winning one of his fights. He pretended to repeatedly hit a “speed bag,” a training technique boxers do to prepare for their fights. After the game in the dressing room, Mark Messier got his teammate’s attention. “Tie, come here,” he said. Domi dutifully went over to the Ranger captain. “Listen here you little shit,” Messier blasted him. “You want respect in this league, then cut that shit out.” It may have been the single most important piece of advice Domi heard in his entire career. In one brief but sharp exchange, Messier reminded Domi that the NHL was not the World Wrestling Federation, that other tough guys in the league were protecting their star players in the same way Domi was protecting his, and if he wanted a decent career highlighted by the respect of his peers, he had to smarten up. http://theagenda.tvo.org/blog/agenda-blog/fighters-chapter-new-game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Favourite players can never do any wrong. Which would be valid if Kane was one of my favourite players. But he's not. Re Messier: the guy whom he allegedly grabbed by the throat and threw against the wall was Kent Nilsson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Kane felt that team rules didn't apply to him. Guys like that need to go. Like Seguin in Boston who is an alcoholic that puts partying ahead of winning. Tough to give up talent, but guys like that will poison an entire team. The 'team rules' are a bit of a red herring, tossed to for effect to the media.. It was clear that Kane had crossed a line in the relationship with his team mates. Clear to me anyway, in the way they spoke of him when asked by the media . They never condemn him outright as a cancer, but there is no doubt the tracksuit dowsing was just the end game, not the beginning. When star players have a sour relationship with a coach, most often the coach goes because he is easier to replace. When the soured relationship is with the rest of the team..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Re Messier: the guy whom he allegedly grabbed by the throat and threw against the wall was Kent Nilsson. On a fan DVD about his career where Tie tells the story I quoted and says Mess pinned him to the wall while delivering the message. It's possible he used that tactic more than once. Mark was one of the great sports leaders and he knew that to get everything out of a team no single player can be above it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 The 'team rules' are a bit of a red herring, tossed to for effect to the media.. It was clear that Kane had crossed a line in the relationship with his team mates. Clear to me anyway, in the way they spoke of him when asked by the media . They never condemn him outright as a cancer, but there is no doubt the tracksuit dowsing was just the end game, not the beginning. When star players have a sour relationship with a coach, most often the coach goes because he is easier to replace. When the soured relationship is with the rest of the team..... I didn't say the track suit incident was the beginning. It is just evidence of an arrogant player that was poisoning the team. Anyway, I love the way he plays on the ice so hopefully this situation will help him mature into a more effective team player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Meanwhile back in Leaf land.... That second quote from the top speaks volumes, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Phaneuf didn't build the team.... he just sucks as a player, that's all. I like how Kessel essentially threw the rest of his teammates under the bus! lol Class act! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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