OCCUPY

[jacee]

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20111103/occupy-vancouver-becoming-a-fire-hazard-111103/

I'm watching the local global news right now, and the VPD & VFD are at the Art Gallery now, telling them to start clearing unoccupied tents, all fuel sources, tarps and garbage and they have till 10am tomorrow or the city will “do it for them”…….

And this poll was just released and mentioned on Global:

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=5394

Support for Protest:

44% for

48% Against

Views on timeline of campsite:

20% stay in place

40% give deadline

35% remove now

5% don't know

44% support the protest.

That's more support than most of our governments have.

I expect they can reorganize the site to the satisfaction of any concerns, as other camps have to do. Some cities are providing hydro and water and garbage pickup helps too.

Nobody's going to tell the police to use force to remove them,

(Scott Olsen still can't talk, and US veterans are organizing peacekeeping forces for protesters. The significance of this is not lost on Canadian politicians.)

and police have discretion too.

And they're perhaps more inclined to exercise that discretion in Canada.

Edited November 4, 2011 by jacee

[Shwa]

44% support the protest.

That's more support than most of our governments have.

I expect they can reorganize the site to the satisfaction of any concerns, as other camps have to do. Some cities are providing hydro and water Nobody's going to tell the police to remove them.

There are other ways to culture jam too, not just lengthy occupations. As Dre said, it is just getting started...

[capricorn]

The city said it was considering how to clear the space, but the use of force did not appear to be among the options being weighed.

"We don't want to turn them into martyrs," said city spokesman Jacques Perron.[/i]

You see?

That's an anglo media report. The Quebec media is reporting the mayor has given them an ultimatum. Remove the tents or the police and fire services will be instructed to intervene.

Le maire Labeaume a accordé quelques heures jeudi matin aux «indignés» pour qu'ils retirent la quarantaine de tentes montées sur les lieux, à défaut de quoi les services de police et d'incendie seront appelés à intervenir.

http://www.journalmetro.com/linfo/article/1014427--les-indignes-de-quebec-s-accrochent

[jacee]

That's an anglo media report. The Quebec media is reporting the mayor has given them an ultimatum. Remove the tents or the police and fire services will be instructed to intervene.

http://www.journalmetro.com/linfo/article/1014427--les-indignes-de-quebec-s-accrochent

But the police are not to use force?

I think we have a stalemate here.

No mayor wants to be the next Jean Quon and wake up explaining to the media.

The SQ are always a bit of a wild card and not dismayed by bad press. ...

[Guest Derek L]

44% support the protest.

That's more support than most of our governments have.

I expect they can reorganize the site to the satisfaction of any concerns, as other camps have to do. Some cities are providing hydro and water and garbage pickup helps too.

Nobody's going to tell the police to use force to remove them,

(Scott Olsen still can't talk, and US veterans are organizing peacekeeping forces for protesters. The significance of this is not lost on Canadian politicians.)

and police have discretion too.

And they're perhaps more inclined to exercise that discretion in Canada.

And 75% want the "99%" to pack it in........

[jacee]

And 75% want the "99%" to pack it in........

Go back and ask them if they want the police to use force to remove them.

It'll be less than 20%, the usual knee-jerk 'let's you and him fight' crowd.

[Guest Derek L]

Go back and ask them if they want the police to use force to remove them.

It'll be less than 20%, the usual knee-jerk 'let's you and him fight' crowd.

Well sure, I’m sure most of the “75%ers” that want the campers gone, would prefer if the campers left peacefully….Who wants to see police officers getting pelted with rocks and storefronts smashed right? None the less, Mayor Robertson’s recent “reversal” on the campsite is telling, what with the release of the above poll of public sentiment towards the “99%ers” and his challenge in the mayoral race.

If 75% of the public want the campers gone, why aren’t the “99%ers” listening? I thought they proclaimed to represent the actual 99%…..if 75% wants them gone…..And a (small) majority of the actual 99% disagree with their “message”…….Why aren’t they listening?

[Guest Derek L]

Residents oppose Occupy tent city

And the 99%ers are now losing the media campaign:

A new poll suggests a strong majority of Metro Vancouver residents - 75 per cent - want the Occupy movement tent city gone from the Vancouver Art Gallery lawn.

An Ipsos Reid poll of 760 adults in the region found that 35 per cent of respondents want the Occupy Vancouver encampment removed immediately.

Another forty per cent say the protesters should be allowed to stay but be given a firm deadline for removal.

Only 20 per cent said the Occupy Vancouver camp should be allowed to remain indefinitely.

So it would seem the 99%ers are in fact, at best, 20-25%ers………Time to go home children.

[jacee]

Well sure, I’m sure most of the “75%ers” that want the campers gone, would prefer if the campers left peacefully….Who wants to see police officers getting pelted with rocks and storefronts smashed right? None the less, Mayor Robertson’s recent “reversal” on the campsite is telling, what with the release of the above poll of public sentiment towards the “99%ers” and his challenge in the mayoral race.

If 75% of the public want the campers gone, why aren’t the “99%ers” listening? I thought they proclaimed to represent the actual 99%…..if 75% wants them gone…..And a (small) majority of the actual 99% disagree with their “message”…….Why aren’t they listening?

At a general assembly meeting held Thursday evening, the group rejected the call to remove the structures, saying the city's demand was rushed and did not come through the appropriate channel.

The group came to the consensus that "all and any demands, announcements and threats" from the city would have to be raised by a city representative at a general assembly meeting. Anyone claiming to speak on behalf of Occupy Vancouver outside of this channel would be considered illegitimate, the group agreed.

The tent city council also issued a brief statement saying "tent city is already in the midst of reconstruction plans and will continue to carry those out," meaning there are no plans to leave any time soon.

At the camp, protesters vowed to stay indefinitely. “I’m in it for the long-run and that is the general sentiment from everyone down there,” said protester Lauren Gill.

Well, there's your answer: If the Mayor (etc) has something to say to them, they can come to a general assembly.

I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean the police will tell lies just to start rumours that scare people so who are they supposed to believe?

The people who come and speak to them through proper channels. Seems appropriate to me.

And you can bet that if police use force and video goes viral (as it will), the Mayor and council will be the ones who live to regret it

Edited November 4, 2011 by jacee

[Guest Derek L]

At a general assembly meeting held Thursday evening, the group rejected the call to remove the structures, saying the city's demand was rushed and did not come through the appropriate channel.

The group came to the consensus that "all and any demands, announcements and threats" from the city would have to be raised by a city representative at a general assembly meeting. Anyone claiming to speak on behalf of Occupy Vancouver outside of this channel would be considered illegitimate, the group agreed.

The tent city council also issued a brief statement saying "tent city is already in the midst of reconstruction plans and will continue to carry those out," meaning there are no plans to leave any time soon.

At the camp, protesters vowed to stay indefinitely. “I’m in it for the long-run and that is the general sentiment from everyone down there,” said protester Lauren Gill.

None of that changes the fact that ~75% of the public wants them gone…….I heard the City of Victoria has just cut off Occupy Victoria’s power and water…….

The City of Victoria says if you add up bylaw enforcement in the square, extra cleanup, and staff time it has spent an additional $40,000 on Occupy Victoria. And, like police, doesn’t like the way the campout is evolving. “Overflowing needle boxes suggesting higher drug use in the square, more garbage, more evidence of human excrement, more cleanup of washrooms” says spokesperson Katie Josephson.

The city says it still supports peaceful assembly and protest, but it is now clear protesters will be asked to pack up and leave in less than three weeks. “Ultimately, we do require the entire square for events. We have informed the group we’ll need the square to host all of those people” adds Josephson.

There are also indications businesses are getting tired of their new neighbours.

Next door to Occupy Victoria staff at the Satin Moon Quilt Shop say they were approached by a protester who demanded to use their power, and said if they didn’t let him, he’d have tents set up outside the door. Meantime, at Starbucks business is up, because the corporate coffee shop has become an unlikely but popular nighttime Occupy Victoria hangout.

The 75% want the children to pack her in......Democracy at work.

[Guest Derek L]

The Occupy life gets rougher in Victoria City turns off water and power at Centennial Square protest camp Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Occupy+life+gets+rougher+Victoria/5652252/story.html#ixzz1cjipqhJg

The “99%” do seem to be getting the public’s attention…….and 75% of the public want them gone!!!

[jacee]

None of that changes the fact that ~75% of the public wants them gone…….I heard the City of Victoria has just cut off Occupy Victoria’s power and water…….

The 75% want the children to pack her in......Democracy at work.

Democracy is a slow process.

Patience is required.

[Guest Derek L]

Democracy is a slow process.

Patience is required.

Patience is required, but so is the support of the voting public……They’ve lost 75% and the media…….time to pull back, reorganize, refocus and work on the delivery of their message……..Playing devils advocate, I’d suggest they pick, then “occupy”, a mainstream political party……The Liberal Party is looking for new blood…….The Greens could use the help…….and the NDP is always looking to “expand”….If they feel their views are shared by a majority of Canadians, they should focus their efforts for the next federal election….

[bjre]

The Occupy life gets rougher in Victoria City turns off water and power at Centennial Square protest camp Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Occupy+life+gets+rougher+Victoria/5652252/story.html#ixzz1cjipqhJg

The “99%” do seem to be getting the public’s attention…….and 75% of the public want them gone!!!

I don't like the park been occupied, the good news is that the park is far away from the one where I would often like to go; I don't like the street been occupied especially when I happened want to pass the street, although endless construction seems always happen somewhere in Toronto.

But what really make this happening? Where did the wealth go? Why even thousands of years ago, people can feed themselves and build house for themselves to live, now we can not if we don't loan from bank and in high debt after work hard half a life?

The system make it like this. The law system make all of this happened.

The system create countless laws to impose people do according a small groups of people's testes with large amount of cops and courts, jails that cost so much of your taxes.

The system make most people earn so small that they can not afford their own house and let banks provide mortgage so that make you actually need to pay even more for your house.

In the means time, most the money redistributed with the help of the law system moves to the richest people and the organizations that do not create any material values, like police, big bosses of medical companies, oil companies and others.

That is the real reason why price becomes higher and higher, and people feel life is hard.

Edited November 4, 2011 by bjre

[Shwa]

The Occupy life gets rougher in Victoria City turns off water and power at Centennial Square protest camp Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Occupy+life+gets+rougher+Victoria/5652252/story.html#ixzz1cjipqhJg

The “99%” do seem to be getting the public’s attention…….and 75% of the public want them gone!!!

Was there a vote taken? Because that is democracy at work. Taking polls isn't science, it's politics and often unreliable politics.

85% of the population support what they are doing. See? Anyone can make shit up.

[Vancouverite]

The movement has no leadership and no real solutions to very difficult problems, so, in the end, it can't accomplish anything above a protest message. And, without leadership or a platform, it will fizzle out.

One more thing - some have said they don't need leadership, and they don't have a central agenda, so they're trying something new. They have forgotten the lessons of history, because that was tried in the 1960's and 1970's, with anti-business businesses and so on, but that didn't go anywhere, because any social organization needs leadership and management, and it also needs a central mission and core values.

[cybercoma]

Occupying Canada was ridiculous from day 1. We don't have the same problems here as they do in the US. Unless these protestors come to terms on electoral reform or reform of any sort, it's nothing more than a gesture of support for the movement in the United States. Protesting in Canada for change in the United States is just plain stupid.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... Protesting in Canada for change in the United States is just plain stupid.

Yep...on this we agree. Now please apply that logic to many other United States' issues that some Canadians get very worked up over!

'Course, some will say that many major corps in Canada are just American subsidiaries so they need to apply pressure on the "states" from Vancouver.

[Wild Bill]

I don't like the park been occupied, the good news is that the park is far away from the one where I would often like to go; I don't like the street been occupied especially when I happened want to pass the street, although endless construction seems always happen somewhere in Toronto.

But what really make this happening? Where did the wealth go? Why even thousands of years ago, people can feed themselves and build house for themselves to live, now we can not if we don't loan from bank and in high debt after work hard half a life?

The system make it like this. The law system make all of this happened.

The system create countless laws to impose people do according a small groups of people's testes with large amount of cops and courts, jails that cost so much of your taxes.

The system make most people earn so small that they can not afford their own house and let banks provide mortgage so that make you actually need to pay even more for your house.

In the means time, most the money redistributed with the help of the law system moves to the richest people and the organizations that do not create any material values, like police, big bosses of medical companies, oil companies and others.

That is the real reason why price becomes higher and higher, and people feel life is hard.

Actually, I agree with much of what you say although to me it seems a bit simpler. Today's status quo really formed after WWII, in the 1950's. Before that, taxes were a much lighter load on people's backs. The majority of the population was rural. This meant that they could live on their land and afford to keep it! They were much more self-sufficient for their food and the "100 mile Diet" was more the normal way of things. Refrigeration was done by ice boxes, if you had ice and also cold cellars dug out beneath the houses. Of course it was nowhere near as good as what we have today so families canned and preserved what they had grown for the cold seasons.

Cash money was only needed for store-bought goods. There was usually some work available to earn this, even if just part-time. City folk lived on a cash-money economy but because the majority were rural that set the tone for wages, prices and most of all, taxes!

The war had greatly expanded industrialization. Afterwards factories retooled from tanks and guns to consumer goods. People moved off the farms into the cities in droves! Work was easy to find and pay scales were high, compared to working on a farm. In 1960 my father started work at a steel company. He was paid well enough to afford a house, a car for transportation, some luxuries like a TV and raised 4 kids.

By this time, the expense side of peoples' budgets was beginning to take advantage of the higher disposable incomes. TV ads preached consumption. Buy! Buy! Buy! A LOT of working families could afford a cottage in northern Ontario! Today, such a cottage is usually an asset passed down as an inheritance. The new ones are MUCH fancier and therefore, much more expensive.

Taxes kept rising, with the curve really getting steep by the end of the 80's. Municipalities recognized that the growth in new homes was driven by the new middle class - working folks with some disposable income, with children. So the tax base was changed. No longer could you buy a single lot just outside of town, build a house and commute to work, enjoying a more rural living rather cheaply. Instead, we were already in a new status quo - suburban development!

By now, no more single lots. Farmers were not allowed to sell them. Instead, developers would buy large tracts of land and build a lot of homes all at once, with streets, sidewalks and sewers in place from Day 1. Of course, the cities had raised the minimum building codes, so that every house had to be a 3 bedroom (the majority of buyers never noticed, since they were raising or intending to raise a family) and a minimum square footage. So as people moved in they were immediately being taxed for a large home on a developed lot, complete with city water and all the amenities. The tax return to the cities was great!

Governments tend to learn how to tax their citizens to the maximum they can afford, where they bleed but not enough to die! This was the new status quo, the new equilibrium. Not much over 25 years earlier, many people were used to living without electricity. Now, not having to pay an electricity bill every month was unthinkable.

Then some severe economic shocks came. In the mid-70's OPEC hit us with a HUGE increase in the cost of oil! In only a couple of years gasoline at the pump went from 25 cents a GALLON to over a dollar! By the time Canada switched to metric it was around $1.57 per gallon, as I recall. It's far worse today, per litre.

Before, single income families were the norm. Now, moms were going back to the work force in order to have the family keep what it had. Nowadays, the double income is the norm, at the penalty of Mom not being home to mind the kids and look after the house and do the shopping and driving running around.

We began to see large interest rate hikes. There was a period in the 80's where mortgages were 22%! These changes were coming faster than people could comfortably adapt. Everyone thought that the problems were temporary. Yet it seemed that every time we lost jobs in a recession when we came out of it we never got as many back. A lot of older workers would fall through the cracks.

Meanwhile, taxes kept going up like they were running on automatic! To be fair, governments were trapped by having had several decades of new and better services being delivered to the people, paid for by those 1960's style disposable incomes. Politically, they couldn't start cutting back so they had to keep raising taxes to deliver them, either directly or with the new technique of service fees for virtually everything a citizen wanted or needed from his governments, particularly the municipal ones. A "death of a thousand cuts", as it were.

So our income paradigm changed with our tax and living expense burdens lagging far behind. Today, most families are much smaller than before and DINKS or couples with no kids and a double income are the new norm. Yet has anyone seen a new housing development built with two or even one bedroom homes? Such homes are almost impossible to find except for the resale market, usually in much older and less desirable parts of town. Even if a developer wanted to appeal to the smaller home market, he can't! The building codes haven't been changed so he simply is not allowed.

I could write a book or we could all come up with examples all day long but everything boils down to change coming faster than most people could recognize or adapt. Sure people over 60 years ago could make do with much less money but not only have our lifestyles changed but our infrastructure today is such that we can't go back! Almost all of us have no family farm and can't afford to buy one. We pay taxes and fees as if we all make a very good income with both partners working, even though the economy is such that more often than not one or both partners has either lost their job and not working or has a poorer job at a reduced rate of pay.

And the changes keep coming, even as we still can't see what they are very well. I don't have the answers as to how we can cope.

Maybe someone else on the board has the answers. Somehow, we have to start recognizing the new status quo that has been formed and society has to adapt. It had better happen quickly because those shadows of change coming towards us don't look that positive for the typical working Canadian who fishes for a living or works in a factory.

We can't all work in the oil fields!

Edited November 4, 2011 by Wild Bill

[cybercoma]

Yep...on this we agree. Now please apply that logic to many other United States' issues that some Canadians get very worked up over!

They have every right to be worked up over the blatant stupidity that is allowed by your government, which affects the rest of the world. However, protesting here is not going to change US federal politics. They should pack a suitcase and go to Oakland or New York.

[GostHacked]

The Occupy life gets rougher in Victoria City turns off water and power at Centennial Square protest camp Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Occupy+life+gets+rougher+Victoria/5652252/story.html#ixzz1cjipqhJg

The “99%” do seem to be getting the public’s attention…….and 75% of the public want them gone!!!

Are they sure taking away the water is a good idea? That almost seems criminal to me.

[bush_cheney2004]

They have every right to be worked up over the blatant stupidity that is allowed by your government, which affects the rest of the world.

They can do whatever they want for all the good it will do. Are you saying that Canada's government does not affect the "rest of the world"? I think some dead Libyans or Haitians would disagree if they were still alive.

However, protesting here is not going to change US federal politics. They should pack a suitcase and go to Oakland or New York.

Member MH 'splained it all to me long ago....they watch American television and new media online and think they are...'Merkins.

[cybercoma]

They can do whatever they want for all the good it will do. Are you saying that Canada's government does not affect the "rest of the world"? I think some dead Libyans or Haitians would disagree if they were still alive.

You're such a goof. I'm not criticizing your government as a way of turning a blind eye to what our government does.

Member MH 'splained it all to me long ago....they watch American television and new media online and think they are...'Merkins.

Borders are more loosely defined for younger people. I think it's hard for older people to understand that. This generation is connected to all corners of the earth via the internet. Businesses are more transnational now than ever. If you were born around 1980 or later, your conception of each nation being in its own bubble would be seriously undermined by our way of life today. All that to say, I don't think mthey think they're Americans at all. Instead, I think people are increasingly becoming aware of the arbitrary nature of borders.

[bjre]

Actually, I agree with much of what you say although to me it seems a bit simpler.

Thanks.

Occupying Canada was ridiculous from day 1. We don't have the same problems here as they do in the US. Unless these protestors come to terms on electoral reform or reform of any sort, it's nothing more than a gesture of support for the movement in the United States. Protesting in Canada for change in the United States is just plain stupid.

I agree with you that it is meaningless without an real reform agenda.

I think if they want to change something to make their life better, it is good to do something as a good start.

Actually, they did not change anything that rob away their money.

For example, during the time they were in street, another law approved, which add more amount of work to cops and judges and lawyers that do not create any real value but just consume your tax.

And decrease the tax source in the mean time.

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/27/toronto-bans-shark-fin-sales/

The New York Times is reporting that Toronto City Council has voted to ban the sale, possession and consumption of shark fin and shark fin products within the city. The motion was approved by a 38-4 vote.

The law is not helpful because I've heard there is already a 1994 law that makes Canada import Shark fin without shark body illegal. And I think the reason that the lawmakers waste tax dollars to discuss such useless laws is only for relief from the embarrass of that they actually can not solve any real problem other than create more and more problems.

I believe if the occupiers want to improve life for most Canadians, they should start to ask for stop approving any new laws.

And start to check old laws and start to abolish most of them. The real effect of those laws is just taking money from hard working people and give it to rich ones and the ones that don't create wealth.

Edited November 4, 2011 by bjre

[Michael Hardner]

The wealth didn't go anywhere. The lowest earners are doing about the same as they were however the improvements in the economy have gone only to the top, since they own the technology that eliminates well-paying jobs, they invest in emerging markets and so on.

I'm wondering, though, if anybody has good information on where the 1% is receiving their disproportional increases in wealth from.