betsy Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) Given that we have a topic called, What is a Christian....it's only appropriate to understand what a New Atheist is. I specify New Atheist since this is a new breed - followers/disciples of the men who founded it, known as the "The 4 Horsemen." Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett. I forgot the name of the fourth one. The Church of the Non-BelieversBy Gary Wolf MY FRIENDS, I MUST ASK YOU AN IMPORTANT QUESTION TODAY: Where do you stand on God? It's a question you may prefer not to be asked. But I'm afraid I have no choice. We find ourselves, this very autumn, three and a half centuries after the intellectual martyrdom of Galileo, caught up in a struggle of ultimate importance, when each one of us must make a commitment. It is time to declare our position. This is the challenge posed by the New Atheists. We are called upon, we lax agnostics, we noncommittal nonbelievers, we vague deists who would be embarrassed to defend antique absurdities like the Virgin Birth or the notion that Mary rose into heaven without dying, or any other blatant myth; we are called out, we fence-sitters, and told to help exorcise this debilitating curse: the curse of faith. The New Atheists will not let us off the hook simply because we are not doctrinaire believers. They condemn not just belief in God but respect for belief in God. Religion is not only wrong; it's evil. Now that the battle has been joined, there's no excuse for shirking. Three writers have sounded this call to arms. They are Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennett. A few months ago, I set out to talk with them. I wanted to find out what it would mean to enlist in the war against faith. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.11/atheism.html?pg=7&topic=atheism&topic_set= It is similar to just about any other religion debating one another that their God/gods/diety are the real ones....except that the faith of the New Atheist is in the belief of No God at all. They've got a sect called Pastafaria - who I think invokes the Flying Spaghetti Monster - and they even have the required head dress (pasta colander). I don't know if using the plastic ones or stainless steel/aluminum pasta strainers make any difference. Another sect I think invokes the Pie in the Sky. Do they mean sweet pies or savory pies, beats me. They must mean every pies. Do they wear pie plates instead? Must be. I'm not sure though if it goes with a rolling pin. For a history of its founding, its doctrines (yep, they even have their own "sabbath Day") and modus operandi, refer to the other topic "Church of the Non-Believers." So....let's get to know the new kid in the block. Check out this topic for more detailed info: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18436 Edited August 21, 2011 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 I doubt that there's any more consensus about what an Atheist is, than what a Christian is. I have known Atheists who believed in no gods, who didn't "know" (really, Agnostics) or believed in some gods or spirits. Similar to Christianity, there's a popular understanding of what it means, and a popular debate over what it means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) So, what is the New Atheist? This must be their code. Intolerance of ignorance, myth and superstition; disregard for the tolerance of religion. Indoctrination of logic, reason and the advancement of a naturalistic worldview. http://newatheism.org/ Edited August 21, 2011 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 I doubt that there's any more consensus about what an Atheist is, than what a Christian is. I have known Atheists who believed in no gods, who didn't "know" (really, Agnostics) or believed in some gods or spirits. Similar to Christianity, there's a popular understanding of what it means, and a popular debate over what it means. As far as I'm concerned, an atheist can call himself anything or everything in the book....but not a Christian, based on the fact in the Authoritative Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 As far as I'm concerned, an atheist can call himself anything or everything in the book....but not a Christian, based on the fact in the Authoritative Bible. Your fallacy is that you believe that the Bible has a definitive definition that all must accept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Your fallacy is that you believe that the Bible has a definitive definition that all must accept. Yea...kinda like more research papers for global warming as "settled science". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 I have known Atheists who believed in no gods, who didn't "know" (really, Agnostics) or believed in some gods or spirits.Penn Jillette in his new book God, No!: Signs You May Already Be an Atheist and Other Magical Tales makes an interesting point about agnostics.If I ask you, "does God exist?" and you answer, "I don't know" then you're an atheist. The agnostic argument is silly for this reason: if you don't know whether or not something exists, then you do not believe in it. If someone asks you if God exists and you say, "I don't know," then they ask you, "Well, do you believe in God?" You pretty much have to answer no. If you don't know whether or not something exists it makes absolutely no sense to believe in that something. You don't have to be absolutely certain of something's non-existence to say you don't believe in that something. Otherwise, we would believe in all kinds of crazy shit that doesn't make any sense. So agnostics are really just atheists that don't want to piss their faithful friends and family off. Agnostics are atheists that don't want to be ostracized by the atheist label by judgmental assholes that believe in God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saipan Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 I have known Atheists who believed in no gods, who didn't "know" (really, Agnostics) or believed in some gods or spirits. This ought to be studied more deeply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Your fallacy is that you believe that the Bible has a definitive definition that all must accept. All MUST accept? Hey, I'm just stating my faith. MY religious belief. You don't have to accept it if you don't want to. But as a Christian....of course - in my view - the Bible has the definitive definition. Logic dictates that to be a Christian, one has to believe the Bible has the definitive definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 YOUR belief which is the right one, no? Not to believe or to believe something different is wrong. Am I right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 All MUST accept? Hey, I'm just stating my faith. MY religious belief. You don't have to accept it if you don't want to. But as a Christian....of course - in my view - the Bible has the definitive definition. Logic dictates that to be a Christian, one has to believe the Bible has the definitive definition. Right...and you are consistent in this regard. Ironically, others criticize you while having steadfast faith in their own beliefs (e.g. "global warming"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 "The new atheist" is pretty much like "the old atheist" in that he does not give a crap about Dawkins et al, TalkOrigins, or any of this crap, and doesn't care what other people believe in either as long as they're not trying to teach about the 6000 year old earth in biology class or inflict religious mores upon public policy. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) "The new atheist" is pretty much like "the old atheist" in that he does not give a crap about Dawkins et al, TalkOrigins, or any of this crap, and doesn't care what other people believe in either as long as they're not trying to teach about the 6000 year old earth in biology class or inflict religious mores upon public policy. -k Well, the New Atheist is founded by Dawkins et al. If he does not give a crap about the founders or any of this crap....then why call one's self a new atheist? There is indeed a differing connotation to new atheists - something that distinguish them from the regular atheists. They are defined mostly by their attitude and "reason." New Atheists are into the in-your-face rudeness in their zero tolerance for religion and faith! Their aim is to ridicule and dis-respect religion/faith at every opportunity they get! And that's no bull. You should read the Church of The Non-believers (the openning article) so you can understand the difference. Edited August 21, 2011 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) Another tell-tale sign. They are angry and bitter. The regular atheists are comfortable with their belief....but not the New Atheist. Their hostile attitude suggest there's some issues with religion....that they carry like a chip on their shoulders. A lot of hostilities usually come from ex-Christians. I guess it's like a smoker who finally quit smoking. The cigarette becomes the enemy, and they want to badmouth the cigarette and stop anyone from smoking. Edited August 21, 2011 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Penn Jillette in his new book God, No!: Signs You May Already Be an Atheist and Other Magical Tales makes an interesting point about agnostics. If I ask you, "does God exist?" and you answer, "I don't know" then you're an atheist. The agnostic argument is silly for this reason: if you don't know whether or not something exists, then you do not believe in it. If someone asks you if God exists and you say, "I don't know," then they ask you, "Well, do you believe in God?" You pretty much have to answer no. If you don't know whether or not something exists it makes absolutely no sense to believe in that something. You don't have to be absolutely certain of something's non-existence to say you don't believe in that something. Otherwise, we would believe in all kinds of crazy shit that doesn't make any sense. So agnostics are really just atheists that don't want to piss their faithful friends and family off. Agnostics are atheists that don't want to be ostracized by the atheist label by judgmental assholes that believe in God. Jillette adds to the debate but can't resolve this. Atheist means belief in no gods to many if not most, and it's not the same as Agnostic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) An interview of Craig by Michael Coren. The New Atheists are Not Intellectually "Bright" Edited August 21, 2011 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Another tell-tale sign. They are angry and bitter. Angry, bitter, not bright... What about their arguments ? Why is it so hard to not make these arguments personal with you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Yea...kinda like more research papers for global warming as "settled science". Two different things here: the discussion of popular use of a term versus a scientific idea based on observable facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Two different things here: the discussion of popular use of a term versus a scientific idea based on observable facts. No...both are still just ideas. Your belief system is not any more viable than another in the absolute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) Angry, bitter, not bright... What about their arguments ? Why is it so hard to not make these arguments personal with you ? Rude. Did I mention that already? The tell-tale signs have been observed on this board and other sites. Confering with other Christians actively debating elsewhere....the same "phenomenon" are attributed to other new atheists in other boards. One need only to read the topics in religion and in no time at all, you'll know who the new atheists are among the regulars here. They stand out. As for making these arguments "personal," what's more personal than having someone ridicule one's faith? To make it their purpose and to go out of their way to do so. Not to mention the kind of hostile and rude response(s) to any Christians who gives their two cents based on faith. Have you seen the other topics? Have you read the posts? Just because no one is complaining to the mod doesn't mean they're not there. Well, if the new atheists have the 4 horsemen....Christians have William Craig! So far, he's got one Horseman Dawkins galloping into the sunset....with hardly any neigh-neigh! Who knows what goes on in themind of that one....maybe looking for oats....or bishops....and cardinals.... Pardon me MHardner, but aren't you being a little bit biased? Edited August 21, 2011 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 No...both are still just ideas. Your belief system is not any more viable than another in the absolute. Belief systems are not being directly discussed here, although I suppose every individual has one that is reflected in the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Now as I said, the regular atheists tend to b comfy in their stance. Yep. They are confident with their decision. The New Atheists on the other hand....are not. Infact, they are confused. Utterly confused. If you've been following the skirmishes in the topics....how many times have I pointed out each and everyone's confusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Rude. Did I mention that already? The tell-tale signs have been observed on this board and other sites. Confering with other Christians actively debating elsewhere....the same "phenomenon" are attributed to other new atheists in other boards. One need only to read the topics in religion and in no time at all, you'll know who the new atheists are among the regulars here. They stand out. As for making these arguments "personal," what's more personal than having someone ridicule one's faith? To make it their purpose and to go out of their way to do so. Not to mention the kind of hostile and rude response(s) to any Christians who gives their two cents based on faith. Have you seen the other topics? Have you read the posts? Just because no one is complaining to the mod doesn't mean they're not there. Well, if the new atheists have the 4 horsemen....Christians have William Craig! So far, he's got one Horseman Dawkins galloping into the sunset....with hardly any neigh-neigh! Who knows what goes on in themind of that one....maybe looking for oats....or bishops....and cardinals.... Pardon me MHardner, but aren't you being a little bit biased? How am I being biased ? I don't see that this thread should be any different than 'What is a Christian?'... Talking about the attributes of individuals isn't really helpful to the discussion. If you say 'Atheism is about bitterness and fear of the unknown' then that is different, IMO, in that it ascribes human reasons for the existence of the philosophy. If you say 'Atheists are, as a rule, bitter and negative people.' then that's pejorative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Belief systems are not being directly discussed here, although I suppose every individual has one that is reflected in the argument. Of course it is "reflected"....that is the point. An atheist argument, new or otherwise, does not sit on any more solid ground as another belief system in the abstract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) How am I being biased ? I don't see that this thread should be any different than 'What is a Christian?'... Talking about the attributes of individuals isn't really helpful to the discussion. But they are! If you say 'Atheism is about bitterness and fear of the unknown' then that is different, And I've been fair in describing and making sure that New Atheists are not mistaken for the regular Atheists. Because there is a stark difference between the two. IMO, in that it ascribes human reasons for the existence of the philosophy. If you say 'Atheists are, as a rule, bitter and negative people.' then that's pejorative. NEW ATHEISTS. And to support my claim, will you read the openning article in the Church Of The Non-Believers. Anyway just so to let you know....you guys aren't the only ones with a definition pile, you know. Edited August 21, 2011 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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