Should Canada legislate more vacation time?

[Thorn]

What does that have to do with the marginal business that can only stay in business at current labour costs?

We should guide all our taxation policy on how it will affect poorly run businesses?

If the businesses in Sweden can survive at their high tax rates why would the taxes drive anyone in Canada out of business?

[Thorn]

Norway is a tiny Nordirc country sitting on huge oil reserves. Don't be so covetous. Not all countries were created equal. Norway can afford those types of benefits without borrowing from oppressed workers. Clearly we can't for now.

Why? Aren't we sitting on huge oil reserves too? Don't we have gold and diamonds?

How about Finland? Are they a huge oil producer too? Switzerland? Austria?

Maybe if we freed the innovators and entrepreuners to invest and generate jobs and wealth for our society we could one day provide similar generous benefits without relying on foreign slave labour.

George? George Bush? Is that you? Didn't you learn anything when you 'set free' the entrepreneurs and investors on Wall Street, George?

[Thorn]

Indeed....they also live in smaller spaces and have less "stuff", including labor saving appliances.

You have more stuff. They have more time with family, more time on vacation, more time to enjoy life.

I'm not sure you come out ahead here.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

The problem with those "progressive" minds is that they think that anything that increases productivity is good economically.

Pay me $100/hr with 50 weeks vacation and I can guarantee you that for the 2 weeks I work I will be at least 3 times as productive as I currently am. That doesn't mean it makes any kind of economic sense for the business or society to promote those kind of benefits.

To compete in a globalized economy, people will have to start working MORE, not less. That is the only way we can avoid going the way of Greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, and probably France/US in the near future.

The days of relaxing off of the slavery of the 3rd world are gone. Sorry "progressives", no more slave labour generated benefits for you.

Conservatives... always tossing out ridiculous examples.

50 weeks the year is the same as getting 3 instead of 2 or 5 instead of 4.

Obviously.

Edited August 22, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[PIK]

The poor and over worked, but union and goverment workers no way.

[Saipan]

How do you define 'outrageous'? Their societies work better than yours. Their governments provide far and away more social services to their people, who lead generally better lifestyles than yours do.

So why would they be moving to Canada and USA?

[Thorn]

So why would they be moving to Canada and USA?

They're not.

[guyser]

I thot the whole boating regulation licencing idea was a crock of crap

Revenue generator.

because when it came out & for 4 or 5 years after A canoe with a Min-Kota operator had to be licensed buit a 30 foot house boat operator was OK bare of license.

Not true, they had to go thru a marina operator inspection and certification, but still kind of lame.

one rule tyhey should put into practice would be that everyone in a boat--- any boat should have to wear a flotation device. If this were brot into play there would soon be an approved lightweight device that didn't have to overheat the wearer.

No no no no. We don't need to mandate that, except for idiot boaters (and there are legion)

We already have those type PFD's, but they are expensive.

[Guest American Woman]

How do you define 'outrageous'? Their societies work better than yours. Their governments provide far and away more social services to their people, who lead generally better lifestyles than yours do.

Who says their societies work better than mine does? Not me. Or many other Americans. Or many other people throughout the world who chose the U.S. to emigrate to. And it's not really their "government" providing more social services - the government doesn't pull money out of the sky; it's the people providing the services with their tax dollars.

Personally, rather than pay the government more money and then have the government decide how I'm to get my money back, I'd rather pay less taxes make that decision myself. Furthermore, many people who have worked long hard hours are "giving" to those who decide to take an easier, less stressful job route. Those who work less under less stress might love the system, but I'm guessing not everyone would find that to be a "society that's working better than [mine]." As to "leading better life styles," again, a matter of opinion - nothing more. I happen to feel more freedom of choice rather than higher taxes is a better life style.

There is far less poverty, far less crime, and people have far more time off work to be with their families than your people do.

Have you looked at the population of some of those countries? We have cities with higher populations, definitely states with more people, and we have more overall diversity. Look at Toronto vs. some small town and you will see the same disparities - yet I'm sure you'd think I was nuts if I compared the crime and poverty that exists in Toronto to some small town of little diversity - it doesn't mean people living in Toronto are living a worse life than people in the small town. It could be quite the opposite, and would be, depending on who you asked.

As for having "far more time off" than "my" people do, that's a pretty broad generalization that may or may not be true. But the thing is, some would prefer not to have the time off because they have different priorities - they would rather not have the government make that decision at the cost of lower take home pay - especially when other people who choose to put less time and effort into their work-life benefit by the taxes of others. Someone is getting far more than they are putting into the system while others are getting far less.

But bottom line. Everyone isn't looking for the same things in life - everyone doesn't want the same things/have the same priorities - that's the problem with the government making too many decisions.

Are you counting the cost you guys pay for health care as taxes, btw? You ought to. It's a cost people in other nations don't have.

Some do have health care costs - Canadians have "health care costs," too. Not everything is covered, and the time off from work waiting for health care procedures is an additional "cost" to those Canadians. And for the record, many of "us guys" have health coverage - either in the form of work benefits, medicare, medicaid, or some other program that subsidizes health care costs. Still others are healthy and don't incur any health care costs.

.

But again. My point stands. It's not "the government" giving people more benefits - it's their own money through higher taxes.

[William Ashley]

Canada has a legislated mandatory vacation period of two weeks. That is, all employers must grant their full-time employees a minimum of ten days of paid vacation per calender year. That is just about the lowest in the civilized world, and there are studies which seem to show that contrary to popular belief this does not lead to higher productivity, but lower. Why can the people of Australia and Brazil, the people of France, Germany and Lithuania enjoy 4, 5 or even 6 weeks of paid annual vacation a week without their economies collapsing?

Btw, popular sentiment among business is to attack anyone who has more than 2 weeks, especially government unions, but also unions in general, and to demand those vacation rights be cut back.

A Middle Eastern store clerk in the Annex, who used to live in France, said it best. "There is no life here. People only work, and for little in return."

We work, they play

No.

People should get jobs they can take time off on if they don't want to work or an employer that wants to pay them for not working. Such as some salary positions. The government shouldn't be legislating for anything but the jobs they are offering imo in regard to private employment processes. It is a private matter between the employer and the employee.

Edited August 22, 2011 by William Ashley

[Machjo]

I voted no. Instead, I'd say eliminate minimum-wage laws too and simply introduce German-style co-determination legislation, and then let the workers negotiate their own holidays with the employer. After all, not everyone wants more days off. Some would rather more paid days off but a lower salary. Others a higher salary but fewer days off. Some would willingly exchange higher wages for other perks like free in-houise daycare or free daily lunches, etc. etc. etc.

One-size-fits-all laws don't always work for everyone.

[Thorn]

Who says their societies work better than mine does? Not me. Or many other Americans.

Most Americans know nothing about what life is like in other countries, other than the countries they see on their faux news views of the world. And that mainly consists of riots, wars, and starvation. Those few Americans who travel abroad usually spend a week or two in a tourist area looking at the pretty sights and then go home. I wonder how many Americans could actually name any city in France, England or Germany other than London, Paris and Berlin? They know little or nothing about how the French and Germans live. They certainly don't know anything about how the Norwegians live. How many Americans, even to save their lives, could name a single city in Norway of Finland or Sweden?

So your collective assessment of how well their societies work compared to yours is largely irrelevant.

Or many other people throughout the world who chose the U.S. to emigrate to.

Third world people, these days, few of whom know anything beyond what they see in Hollywood, and the myth of endless riches here.

Then they arrive and become a gardener working for under minimum wages with no benefits. They'd be way better off in Norway or Belgium.

And it's not really their "government" providing more social services - the government doesn't pull money out of the sky; it's the people providing the services with their tax dollars.

That's pretty obvious. I don't know why you felt you needed to point it out. Governments have no money. They only redistribute money.

Personally, rather than pay the government more money and then have the government decide how I'm to get my money back, I'd rather pay less taxes make that decision myself.

Me too. I'd love to pay them less money in taxes. But I live in a society whose health largely depends on taxes. I don't want people starving in the streets or dying of diseases in the 'poor quarter' while I sip wine by the pool and slaves wave palm fronds over me.

Furthermore, many people who have worked long hard hours are "giving" to those who decide to take an easier, less stressful job route.

I'm not a believer in Communism. I certainly believe hard work ought to be rewarded, and slackers punished. I don't like a system whereby the lazy can live nicely. Far from it. I'd draft the lazy into some sort of gardening corps or road gangs or something. Work or don't eat. That being said, I also believe in providing everyone with the means for self-improvement, for bettering their skills and education so as to be better able to support themselves. And I believe in helping those who are physically, mentally or emotionally disabled for some reason. I don't think your society does much of a job on any of that. Even mine doesn't do as well as it could. The Europeans do a much better job.

And btw, there is necessary correlation between hard work and high pay. Taxi drivers here work long, long hours for very little pay. Meanwhile a lawyer can make a ten minute phone call and rack up as much money for it as the taxi driver does for a week of work.

Oh, but the lawyer went to law school and worked hard, you'll say! Well, perhaps, but the taxi driver probably never had that opportunity. Few lawyers I've known or heard of were poverty stricken as youths. Most people in good, well-paying jobs had parents who were in good, well-paying jobs. Didn't have parents like that? Tough for you, right? At least in America.

you looked at the population of some of those countries? We have cities with higher populations, definitely states with more people, and we have more overall diversity.

Violent crime in the US is, in large measure, a result of a massive underclass of minorities, principally Black and Hispanic, with multiple generations living on welfare living in urban blight without hope. Instead of doing something about that you build prisons, hire more cops, more security guards, put bars on your windows and hunker down with your guns.

As for having "far more time off" than "my" people do, that's a pretty broad generalization that may or may not be true. But the thing is, some would prefer not to have the time off because they have different priorities

And some would prefer to be able to work for less than minimum wages too. But it's been shown to be in society's interest for people to not be able to underbid each other down into the ground. It's also in society's interest for people to be able to live a little, to have vacations now and then. The many benefit despite the few being annoyed. I doubt many Americans would be upset at getting another week or two of paid vacation.

[guyser]

One must keep some posts for posterity.

This is one, full of inannities, and I stopped at the first paragraph.

Most Americans know nothing about what life is like in other countries, other than the countries they see on their faux news views of the world. And that mainly consists of riots, wars, and starvation. Those few Americans who travel abroad usually spend a week or two in a tourist area looking at the pretty sights and then go home. I wonder how many Americans could actually name any city in France, England or Germany other than London, Paris and Berlin? They know little or nothing about how the French and Germans live. They certainly don't know anything about how the Norwegians live. How many Americans, even to save their lives, could name a single city in Norway of Finland or Sweden?

You know 'most' Americans? Oh I bet not.

Those 'few Americans'.....you mean the 25million who travel overseas each year? Cue rolling eyes here

'They know little', well most people know little about how other people in countries live, not just americans, hey Canucks can be ignorant too, you have proven that right here! Well done sir !

Too funny...."More Than 25 Million Americans Will Travel Overseas This Summer Says AAA's New International Forecast

AURORA, Ill.--(Business Wire)--

In a first-ever summer forecast for foreign travel, AAA expects

25.1 million Americans will be traveling internationally this summer,

an increase of 2.6 percent over the 24.5 million who were estimated to

have traveled overseas in summer 2007. The report includes all travel

outside of the United States, including Canada and Mexico.

According to the report, which was produced by Global Insight,

American travelers will be spending $30.7 billion while traveling

internationally during the months of June, July and August. American

spending overseas will increase by 5.7 percent, primarily due to

inflation and the weakness of the U.S. dollar compared to several

major currencies."

Meh, who needs a measly $30 Billion pumped into their economy(ies)

Edited August 23, 2011 by guyser

[CPCFTW]

Do you guys think private companies don't factor vacation time into their bottom line? They'll either pay less or charge more. Either way consumers won't be able to buy as much. Making feel good laws that make everyone worse off.. The lefty way.

[Thorn]

One must keep some posts for posterity.

This is one, full of inannities, and I stopped at the first paragraph.

What a coincidence. The moment I saw your name I said to myself "Well, this will be nothing but sneering, snotty insults, mockery and jeering" and it was!

And then I said to myself, after the first insults, that it wasn't worth reading further, and that life is too short to bother with the anti-social misfits on the internet whose lives are so empty and meaningless that their only hope of gaining a sense of self-importance is by putting down others.

Welcome to my ignore file.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Thorn

[Thorn]

Do you guys think private companies don't factor vacation time into their bottom line? They'll either pay less or charge more. Either way consumers won't be able to buy as much. Making feel good laws that make everyone worse off.. The lefty way.

I am not a Lefty. I'm a practical person who looks at the way life is lived in other parts of the world and says to himself that we ought to adopt the things that work. And many of the things they do over there work better than the way we do them.

And your argument seems to boil down to we won't be able to buy as much 'stuff' if we don't work work, work. I'm not saying you don't need to work, but I think our society carries it past its logical limits and that we'd be better off with less 'stuff' like some of the Europeans, and more 'life'.

[guyser]

What a coincidence. The moment I saw your name I said to myself "Well, this will be nothing but sneering, snotty insults without point or purpose" and it was!

No it wasnt, I posted info to show how stupid and arrogant that post was. And you know what...?...it was !

You could have , ya know....just countered with something that refutes what i said, but we all know that would be impossible since it was such a collosal blunder.

And then I said to myself,...

What you should have said was, "hmm....maybe I should research such silly claims before putting some ignorance out there for all to see"

But...you didnt.

Ignore me is a good idea, because everytime someone posts something of immense ignorance I will jump on it !

[CPCFTW]

I am not a Lefty. I'm a practical person who looks at the way life is lived in other parts of the world and says to himself that we ought to adopt the things that work. And many of the things they do over there work better than the way we do them.

And your argument seems to boil down to we won't be able to buy as much 'stuff' if we don't work work, work. I'm not saying you don't need to work, but I think our society carries it past its logical limits and that we'd be better off with less 'stuff' like some of the Europeans, and more 'life'.

And some people don't feel like living the european way of life. There are many single professional guys (and girls) who don't want to take 3 weeks off to sip wine in France. The government shouldn't legislate people's way of life just because some people like you glorify a certain way of living.

Nevermind that the people who have less than 3 weeks vacation are usually struggling to pay their rent, so your argument that they could do without as much "stuff" is simply asisinine.

More vacation time at walmart = higher costs at walmart = less food on the table for walmart employees... But at least they'll be able to take a week off to think about what they could have bought when prices were lower!

[Black Dog]

And some people don't feel like living the european way of life. There are many single professional guys (and girls) who don't want to take 3 weeks off to sip wine in France. The government shouldn't legislate people's way of life just because some people like you glorify a certain way of living.

I didn't see anyone proposing the government make wine-tasting trips to France mandatory. If you don't want to take your vacation or would rather spend it eating Cheetos and masturbating, that's your call.

More vacation time at walmart = higher costs at walmart = less food on the table for walmart employees... But at least they'll be able to take a week off to think about what they could have bought when prices were lower!

Low-paying service jobs like WalMart generally don't come with vacation benefits. You need unions for that.

[Guest American Woman]

What a coincidence. The moment I saw your name [i started reading your response] I said to myself "Well, this will be nothing but sneering, snotty insults, mockery and jeering" and it was!

And then I said to myself, after the first insults, that it wasn't worth reading further, and that life is too short to bother with the anti-social misfits on the internet whose lives are so empty and meaningless that their only hope of gaining a sense of self-importance is by putting down others.

Welcome to my ignore file.

What a coincidence! This is exactly what I thought when I read your response to me.

I suggest you get a clue before accusing others of being clueless.

[Thorn]

And some people don't feel like living the european way of life. There are many single professional guys (and girls) who don't want to take 3 weeks off to sip wine in France

No one says you MUST take three or four or five weeks off. What I'm suggesting is that without governmental intervention we will not be accorded the opportunity (except in some unionized cases) of taking that much paid vacation. You are perfectly free to turn down your vacation if you don't want it. I use all mine.

Nevermind that the people who have less than 3 weeks vacation are usually struggling to pay their rent, so your argument that they could do without as much "stuff" is simply asisinine.

Are you assuming everyone in Europe works at a high paid job? I bet there are cleaning staff and security guards and store clerks throughout Europe, and they still manage to get by okay with their four or five or six weeks of vacation. In fact, I bet those poor people are better off than the poor people working for no vacation in the US.

More vacation time at walmart = higher costs at walmart = less food on the table for walmart employees... But at least they'll be able to take a week off to think about what they could have bought when prices were lower!

This is just more of the 'stuff is better than life' argument.

If put to a straight up vote, how many Canadians would vote 'no' to having five weeks of vacation instead of two? Would there be economic consequences to that? Perhaps. But the people of Stockholm aren't lining up in bread lines or freezing in their cold, unheated, rat infested hovels, now are they?

[Thorn]

What a coincidence! This is exactly what I thought when I read your response to me.

I suggest you get a clue before accusing others of being clueless.

His response was nothing but sneering and mockery. My response to you was not so I'm confused about what you mean. Perhaps you could point them out to me? Are you speaking of some other post on some other topic? I admit to not being a saint. There seems endless provocation on this web site, but I do try not to insult people who have not first insulted me.

By the way, I don't accuse people of being 'clueless'. I have more imagination than that.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Thorn

[Guest American Woman]

His response was nothing but sneering and mockery. My response to you was not so I'm confused about what you mean. Perhaps you could point them out to me? Are you speaking of some other post on some other topic? I admit to not being a saint. There seems endless provocation on this web site, but I do try not to insult people who have not first insulted me.

By the way, I don't accuse people of being 'clueless'. I have more imagination than that.

Riiight. Your post wasn't filled with sneering and/or mockery at all. Nor was it insulting in the least. Perhaps it was evidence of the "imagination" you claim to have........

Most Americans know nothing about what life is like in other countries, other than the countries they see on their faux news views of the world. Those few Americans who travel abroad usually spend a week or two in a tourist area looking at the pretty sights and then go home. I wonder how many Americans could actually name any city in France, England or Germany other than London, Paris and Berlin? They know little or nothing about how the French and Germans live. They certainly don't know anything about how the Norwegians live. How many Americans, even to save their lives, could name a single city in Norway of Finland or Sweden?

Edited August 23, 2011 by American Woman

[Thorn]

Riiight. Your post wasn't filled with sneering and/or mockery at all. Nor was it insulting in the least. Perhaps it was evidence of the "imagination" you claim to have........

Most Americans know nothing about what life is like in other countries, other than the countries they see on their faux news views of the world. Those few Americans who travel abroad usually spend a week or two in a tourist area looking at the pretty sights and then go home. I wonder how many Americans could actually name any city in France, England or Germany other than London, Paris and Berlin? They know little or nothing about how the French and Germans live. They certainly don't know anything about how the Norwegians live. How many Americans, even to save their lives, could name a single city in Norway of Finland or Sweden?

I was directly responding to your claim about how Americans feel. And, given what I've seen of Americans, my description was accurate, and not meant to be insulting to Americans in general. In fact, I freely admit that if you were a Canadian and had made the same remark "Ie, most Canadians don't think their society..." I could have simply replaced the word 'American' in the above with 'Canadian'. Most Canadians know very little about how other societies work either.

In any event, none of it was an insult directed at you. Nor, in all honesty, was it meant to be mocking or insulting towards Americans in general, since I feel Canadians are pretty much just as ignorant about life elsewhere.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Thorn

[bush_cheney2004]

I admit to not being a saint. There seems endless provocation on this web site, but I do try not to insult people who have not first insulted me.

So when did the entire population of the United States insult you?