Mayhem in Tottenham U.K.

[eyeball]

There's a good article here on the entitlement mentality - heck Britain has been a welfare state for years, national health care, pensions, national housing etc. etc. seems like it's not enough, as the looters in designer T-shirts with expensive mobile phones wanted free stuff. That's all it was, nothing more, and it was contagious as it spread.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/less-political-rebellion-more-mollycoddled-mob/story-e6frg6zo-1226111939883

"There is a context to London's riots that can't be ignored," says a writer for The Guardian, and it is the "backdrop of brutal cuts and enforced austerity measures". The "mass unrest" is a protest against unhinged capitalism, apparently.

Apparently? It seems more likely that the mass unrest is the result of the brutal cuts to the welfare that has thus far been sustaining them.

The waterhole got smaller, apparently brutally...so the animals got meaner too.

Occam's razor is also referred to as the law of economy. Go figure.

[wyly]

these riots are about kids behaving badly not politics or poverty, these kids never think about anything that complex, this is no different than the Vancouver riot, punks with a mob mentality believing they can get away with criminal behaviour because of their numbers...

[Shwa]

these riots are about kids behaving badly not politics or poverty, these kids never think about anything that complex, this is no different than the Vancouver riot, punks with a mob mentality believing they can get away with criminal behaviour because of their numbers...

Exactly.

[DogOnPorch]

Exactly.

Thus: squash them like bugs*. One can be idealistic about arson as long as it isn't your house.

* actual bugs get a pass

[Shwa]

Thus: squash them like bugs*. One can be idealistic about arson as long as it isn't your house.

If you can. But they will always out-number the police and unless you are advocating for a total put-down of all at-risk potential rioters, you are shit out of luck. A police state is bad tourist PR and not good for the Olympics.

Peacetime is a bitch innit? Too bad there wasn't some worthy cause for Britain to go to war for, since they have the makings of a vicious army already. First thing they need to do is replace the mob cadres with official government sanctioned cadres, then organize vigils and firelight marches. Then pick a fight with someone. How has Argentina been behaving lately? Then again, there is always the French...

[Saipan]

If you can. But they will always out-number the police and unless you are advocating for a total put-down of all at-risk potential rioters, you are shit out of luck. A police state is bad tourist PR and not good for the Olympics.

P.E. Trudeau sent tanks and declared Martial Law. As any good dictator would

Didn't hurt tourism at all.

Even much worse in Cuba didn't hurt tourist economy.

[Oleg Bach]

Socialism dispises fatherhood and cons mothers into thinking that they are independant...and don`t need a dad in the house. Socialism attempts to be father - apparently socialism is a dead beat dad.

[DogOnPorch]

If you can. But they will always out-number the police and unless you are advocating for a total put-down of all at-risk potential rioters, you are shit out of luck. A police state is bad tourist PR and not good for the Olympics.

Oh, please...if the mob is coming-up the block burning as they go and you and your family are next, you'd give a rat's rear that you're suddenly living in a "police state". Better that than the utopia called looking at the burning ashes of your former quiet life.

[Thorn]

If you can. But they will always out-number the police and unless you are advocating for a total put-down of all at-risk potential rioters, you are shit out of luck. A police state is bad tourist PR and not good for the Olympics.

Seems to me the Chinese don't have a problem with tourism and managed the Olympics quite well.

Public order needs to be maintained, regardless of cost. If shooting rioters and looters on sight is the cost, then so be it.

Peacetime is a bitch innit? Too bad there wasn't some worthy cause for Britain to go to war for, since they have the makings of a vicious army already. First thing they need to do is replace the mob cadres with official government sanctioned cadres, then organize vigils and firelight marches. Then pick a fight with someone. How has Argentina been behaving lately? Then again, there is always the French...

You have a disturbing amount of sympathy for violent, thieving arsonists and a bizarre sense of contempt for anyone who wishes to maintain order.

[Shwa]

Oh, please...if the mob is coming-up the block burning as they go and you and your family are next, you'd give a rat's rear that you're suddenly living in a "police state". Better that than the utopia called looking at the burning ashes of your former quiet life.

Oh, please... If the mob is on your street asking you to join or have your house burned down, chances are you'd join and do what you were told.

But I am betting you'd rather simply fantasize about such things though.

[Oleg Bach]

Oh, please... If the mob is on your street asking you to join or have your house burned down, chances are you'd join and do what you were told.

But I am betting you'd rather simply fantasize about such things though.

No matches for either of you

[Shwa]

Seems to me the Chinese don't have a problem with tourism and managed the Olympics quite well.

Public order needs to be maintained, regardless of cost. If shooting rioters and looters on sight is the cost, then so be it.

I think once you get past your navel gazing, you will see that shooting rioters and looters on sight never has maintained public order for any great degree of time. It doesn't work. Mobs don't care, they don't operate on the same moral scale as you do. How many riots does it take to convince you?

You have a disturbing amount of sympathy for violent, thieving arsonists and a bizarre sense of contempt for anyone who wishes to maintain order.

And you have a disturbing amount of nonsense bouncing inside your skull because you lack the ability to understand complex social interactions. Stick to the status quo bubble boy. It's nice and safe in there innit?

[Thorn]

Oh, please... If the mob is on your street asking you to join or have your house burned down,

Which happened when, exactly? Having followed events rather closely I don't recall reading of a single instance of that.

Your frantic efforts at coming up with excuses for rioting and arson are simply growing more and more tedious.

[DogOnPorch]

Oh, please... If the mob is on your street asking you to join or have your house burned down, chances are you'd join and do what you were told.

But I am betting you'd rather simply fantasize about such things though.

Cite an example of this happening.

[Thorn]

I think once you get past your navel gazing, you will see that shooting rioters and looters on sight never has maintained public order for any great degree of time. It doesn't work.

On the contrary, it works quite well. The only times it ever fails to work are when the police/military join in with the looters due to lack of discipline or lack of loyalty to the governing structure.

Mobs don't care, they don't operate on the same moral scale as you do. How many riots does it take to convince you?

Mobs don't operate on any moral structure, but this kind of mob operates out of an individual sense of self-interest which sees free loot and no real threat of punishment. Give them a very real threat of very deadly punishment and they will melt away and get back to their video games and televisions.

And you have a disturbing amount of nonsense bouncing inside your skull because you lack the ability to understand complex social interactions.

You actually believe anything you've come up with thus far would be accurately described as 'complex'??!

Wow.

[dre]

If shooting rioters and looters on sight is the cost, then so be it.

:lol:

[Thorn]

:lol:

I've quickly come to realize that one can determine the intelligence of any given post here by the number of emoticons used by its poster.

[Shwa]

On the contrary, it works quite well. The only times it ever fails to work are when the police/military join in with the looters due to lack of discipline or lack of loyalty to the governing structure.

Or when the police shit their pants because they are overrun. Or when the government says 'no shooting' because it will make make things worse and risk escalation. Or when the police fire and the mod suddenly becomes armed themselves...

Mobs don't operate on any moral structure, but this kind of mob operates out of an individual sense of self-interest which sees free loot and no real threat of punishment. Give them a very real threat of very deadly punishment and they will melt away and get back to their video games and televisions.

Mobs operate on a moral stucture as dictated by the controlling cadre. Always have, always will. Because that sense of morality doesn't match yours, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You actually believe anything you've come up with thus far would be accurately described as 'complex'??!

But the rioters in England have come up with something complex, which you fail to comprehend. That is no surprise.

[Thorn]

Or when the police shit their pants because they are overrun. Or when the government says 'no shooting' because it will make make things worse and risk escalation. Or when the police fire and the mod suddenly becomes armed themselves...

You appear to live in a fantasyland where human behaviour is based on cultural rules with no similarity to ours.

I can't recall ever seeing a mob fired on by police or the military which didn't break and run. Ever. In any part of the world. Note, before you get even more tiresome and come up with a case where one or two desperate cops shot into a huge mob all around them and were killed that I'm speaking of fire by a disciplined body of troops or police in unison.

Mobs operate on a moral stucture as dictated by the controlling cadre

.

Most mobs have no controlling cadre. Are you referencing some sort of activists political handbook or other? These mobs were anarchic in nature and without leaders. Such groups will always continue and grow until hammered by the authorities.

[dre]

I've quickly come to realize that one can determine the intelligence of any given post here by the number of emoticons used by its poster.

You might also want to take a look around the world at the types of societies that shoot criminals on sight, and go try living in one... see how long you last. Societies that actually operate under those kinds of retarded knee jerk reactions are the worst hell=holes in the world.

Edited August 13, 2011 by dre

[Shwa]

You appear to live in a fantasyland where human behaviour is based on cultural rules with no similarity to ours.

You appear to live in a fantasy land where human behaviour is based on your own bubble world rules, which has no similarity to reality.

I can't recall ever seeing a mob fired on by police or the military which didn't break and run. Ever. In any part of the world.

Some regoup and dig in. A scenario that never likely occurred to you, but often occurs to governments. In all parts of the world. Or are you deficient in understanding your current events?

Note, before you get even more tiresome and come up with a case where one or two desperate cops shot into a huge mob all around them and were killed that I'm speaking of fire by a disciplined body of troops or police in unison.

And yet, every year more riots, all over the world despite the awesome powers levelled against them by governments.

Most mobs have no controlling cadre. Are you referencing some sort of activists political handbook or other? These mobs were anarchic in nature and without leaders. Such groups will always continue and grow until hammered by the authorities.

Man, you are without a clue aren't you? In the face of known history I mean.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Shwa

[Thorn]

You might also want to take a look around the world at the types of societies that shoot criminals on sight, and go try living in one... see how long you last. Societies that actually operate under those kinds of retarded knee jerk reactions are the worst hell=holes in the world.

In point of fact, all societies are based upon the rule of force. And there are no limits to that force. The state will use whatever level of force is required to enforce its orders. It cannot tolerate refusal, and won't. So resistance to the state will always bring about harsher and harsher force until your resistance is overcome. The more you resist, the more force will be applied. This is so for any violation of the rules, however mild, for simply refusing to obey is itself a crime.

There is a woman in Toronto who has spent most of the last ten years in prison. Her crime consists of walking up and down on a sidewalk outside an abortion clinic for brief periods of time. This is against the rules, and the state must enforce its rules. Since she made no physical resistance, she was simply imprisoned, but any physical resistance is always met by greater application of force by the state. All societies are based upon this.

Note that I am not attempting to divert this discussion onto abortion (please God) but merely pointing out that the state, whether in Canada or elsewhere, might use restraint, but ultimately they will do whatever they have to do to get you to desist from breaking the law.

Now I am not suggesting that shooting rioters ought to be the first response by any means. However, the only thing which brings this sort of anarchic violence to a stop is the greater application of violence. The more restraint you show, the more the violence grows and spreads.

I recall during the Rodney King riots, which grew and spread once again because of restraint and 'sensitivity' on the part of the authorities that when similar rioting began in San Fransisco the SFPD went after the rioters with vengeance. It was a bloody night, which produced well over a thousand arrests. but that was the end of it. LA's violence continued until the National Guard was finally brought in. Nothing stops mobs but violence, and you use however much violence you need to get the job done.

[Thorn]

Some regoup and dig in. A scenario that never likely occurred to you, but often occurs to governments. In all parts of the world. Or are you deficient in understanding your current events?

There is a difference between political protest and anarchic looting and arson. You don't seem to appreciate that different kinds of civil unrest call for different kinds of responses.

And frankly, the idea these anarchic idiots would regroup and start a revolution is so patently ludicrous that I wonder how you weren't embarrassed making the suggestion.

What would be their chant? We demand free Nikes?

Edited August 13, 2011 by Thorn

[eyeball]

In point of fact, all societies are based upon the rule of force. And there are no limits to that force. The state will use whatever level of force is required to enforce its orders. It cannot tolerate refusal, and won't. So resistance to the state will always bring about harsher and harsher force until your resistance is overcome. The more you resist, the more force will be applied. This is so for any violation of the rules, however mild, for simply refusing to obey is itself a crime.

And in your universe every state that's done this has survived and thrived?

You're not aware of any that ultimately fell to the mob?

[Shwa]

You might also want to take a look around the world at the types of societies that shoot criminals on sight, and go try living in one... see how long you last. Societies that actually operate under those kinds of retarded knee jerk reactions are the worst hell=holes in the world.

You mean like Syria? All those ammoral, murderous mobs being fired on and they keep coming back for more.