Dalton McGuinty - Doctor Death

[Keepitsimple]

So lets see now, Mike Harris restructures some of the water testing procedures. Two drunks in Walkerton decide to fraudulently submit samples of water and seven people die. Mike Harris accused of killing people....months and years of harrassment. Now....here we have Dalton McGuinty restructuring healthcare delivery through Local Healthcare Integration Networks - essentially to cut costs......and now 17 people are dead in Niagara region. Where is the outrage? Where is the harrassment. Where are the claims of McGuinty directly contributing to the killing of innocent patients. Where is the call for a public enquiry. Do people remember the vitriole that was spewed at Harris and how Walkerton is still used as a Harris Pinada?

For Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty, there is never good news. The C. difficile outbreak in Welland, St. Catharines and Niagara Falls is the latest example.

The deadly bacteria have already killed 17 patients in area hospitals. That in itself is grim. But the politics of the Niagara region’s health system are equally toxic.

For three years, local residents and their elected councillors have been engaged in a kind of guerrilla war with the Niagara Health System (which runs the region’s seven hospitals) and its overseer, the area’s local health integration network.

Behind both of these bureaucratic bodies, in the crosshairs of voters preparing for October’s provincial election, sits McGuinty’s Liberal government.

For hospitals and their patients, Clostridium difficile is a dangerous and growing scourge. The Ontario Health Ministry reports that, in May, 341 people were infected across the province. Some 40 major hospitals — including five in Toronto — had infection rates above the provincial average.

However, the Niagara area outbreak is unusual in two respects. First, it is more serious. In May, the infection rate at one St. Catharines hospital was more than eight times the provincial average.

Second, the region’s hospitals are in the midst of a wrenching and unpopular restructuring. Emergency rooms are being closed. Acute care beds are being cut back. Certain kinds of services — such as maternity wards — are being eliminated from entire communities.

Even Ontario Ombudsman André Marin has been involved. Last year, he slammed the local health integration network that oversees the system, saying it approved Niagara’s hospital restructuring scheme without sufficient public input.

McGuinty’s government is involved in two ways.

First, it insists that hospitals stay within their budgets. That’s fine. But when hospitals exceed these budgets — as those of the Niagara system were doing — the pressure is on to make cuts.

The Niagara Health System’s solution was to close emergency rooms in Fort Erie and Port Colborne, eliminate maternity and other services from Niagara Falls and concentrate more medical activities in St. Catharines.

It called all of this creating “centres of excellence.” Residents were furious.

The second way in which McGuinty is involved comes through the local health integration networks themselves. These were designed by the Liberals to co-ordinate health care and ensure money was spent wisely.

Politically, they were supposed to take the rap for cutbacks in health services.

Link: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1022007--walkom-mcguinty-and-the-politics-of-a-deadly-infection

[August1991]

So lets see now, Mike Harris restructures some of the water testing procedures. Two drunks in Walkerton decide to fraudulently submit samples of water and seven people die. Mike Harris accused of killing people....months and years of harrassment. Now....here we have Dalton McGuinty restructuring healthcare delivery through Local Healthcare Integration Networks - essentially to cut costs......and now 17 people are dead in Niagara region. Where is the outrage? Where is the harrassment.

Despite the partisan spin, you raise a very good point KISS.

Canadians point to the outrageous costs of civil litigation on US health care. But when government bureaucrats in Canada make mistakes, who pays? In the US, the effect of civil litigation is to change behaviour. In Canada, it's bureaucratic business as usual. In Canada, the people who make the mistake don't suffer the burden of their error. One of the most heart-breaking examples is the several hundred Newfoundland women whose cancer was misdiagnosed.

In Canada, politicians and bureaucrats - State employees - are litigation proof.

This problem extends well beyond deaths and misdiagnosis. State employees impose costs on private individuals that appear nowhere in any budget. A small example? Think of the power that an admitting clerk in a hospital emergency room possesses: she can make you wait for the next 8 hours. Extend that concept to our health system at large.

----

In such discussions, one is quick to look at fairness. (It's not fair that McGuinty gets a free ride while Harris was the subject of criticsm. Well, politics is a partisan game and that's how the Left usually plays it.)

Or, Leftists will argue that the US system is even more unfair. At least in Canada, they say, poor people have some access to health care - and in the US, HMOs have just as much arbitrary power as our State bureaucrats. Perhaps true, and I'm no great defender of the US health system.

It just seems to me that in Canada, our health system has the incentive structure all wrong. People (state employees) impose costs on others but suffer no consequence themselves for their decisions.

Fairness is not the issue. It is having a sustainable system that adapts properly to change. The Canadian health system is not sustainable because its incentives are wrong. Bureaucrats/politicians who make mistakes - unless the Leftist mobs happen to hate them - get off scot-free.

Edited July 9, 2011 by August1991

[Smallc]

We learn from every outbreak that occurs. If we hadn't learned, this one would be even worse. We'll learn from this outbreak. It certainly isn't McGuinty's fault.

BTW, governments and health authorities very much can be sued.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Smallc

[jbg]

Canadians point to the outrageous costs of civil litigation on US health care. But when government bureaucrats in Canada make mistakes, who pays? In the US, the effect of civil litigation is to change behaviour. In Canada, it's bureaucratic business as usual. In Canada, the people who make the mistake don't suffer the burden of their error. One of the most heart-breaking examples is the several hundred Newfoundland women whose cancer was misdiagnosed.

I love my country and my profession. But don't give either credit where it's not due.

Malpractice litigation is largely the commencement of bogus, fraud-filled complaints aimed at shaking down money from insurance companies.

[Oleg Bach]

We have people from the third world or close - as cleaning staff in our hosptials...They don't know how to disinfect or clean...for instance I have a friend who is functional--with mild brain palsy - He is a cleaner at a local hospital - He never baths - his nails are long with dirt under them....and we wonder why disease is spread in hospitals? My friend is also unionized and can not be fired or reprimanded for being filthy - cos that would hurt his feelings.

[Remiel]

This is indeed troubling. There are, however, some relevant differences to E. coli. For one, C. difficile is not the sort of thing that can be completely protected against just with due diligence. It is a growing problem everywhere.

Also, how have you come to the conclusion that McGuinty is personally responsible for all 17 deaths? There were 17 deaths, therefore he must be responsible for all 17? At least a couple of those deaths may have occured even under normal conditions.

[Topaz]

First, let me say, I did for McGuinty but I won't be in the next election. That being said, you can't blame the Libs for this. This is more a hospital issue as to the care workers and the cleaning crew. There's only one way to spread this and its by hand, so look to the care workers as doctors and nurses and how well the cleaning crew are cleaning. Read the following and you will understand this bacteria better. http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/biol_hazards/clostridium_difficile.html

[Keepitsimple]

We learn from every outbreak that occurs. If we hadn't learned, this one would be even worse. We'll learn from this outbreak. It certainly isn't McGuinty's fault.

BTW, governments and health authorities very much can be sued.

I tend to agree somewhat - but not anywhere near entirely - restructuring and managing costs is a tough, thankless job....but as the article says, there are statistics that cover the rates of the bacteria - there were and are trends that are obviously monitored - yet no one has acted on the deterioration in Niagara. No one is blameless here but it would appear that the Health Minister and LHIN's have been so rigid in their cost-control that any pleas for help have fallen on deaf ears.....and this bureaucracy gets its marching orders from the top - Dalton McGuinty

In an almost identical situation, Mike Harris was villified for Walkerton.....even though the real cause was the action of the drunken, fraudulent brothers. It's the double standard of The Star's continuous vendetta against Harris and their kid-glove approach to McGuinty that gives this story a different perspective.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Keepitsimple

[guyser]

Malpractice litigation is largely the commencement of bogus, fraud-filled complaints aimed at shaking down money from insurance companies.

Bullshit!

What came first, the denial of legit claims paper bombed into oblivion or fruadulent claims.

Sounds like someone is drinking the US Chamber of Commerce and Rove"s kool aid.

If Doctors and Hospitals werent such colossal fuck ups none of this would be considered.

[jacee]

Bullshit!

What came first, the denial of legit claims paper bombed into oblivion or fruadulent claims.

Sounds like someone is drinking the US Chamber of Commerce and Rove"s kool aid.

If Doctors and Hospitals werent such colossal fuck ups none of this would be considered.

jbg's post demonstrates the classic dr-as-god myth. Unfortunately this god-complex also extends to handwashing . . . or lack of. Observational research identifies drs as the worst offenders, walking right by hand washing stations between patients.

A note to drs: Arrogance and contempt for patients causes malpractice suits and disease. If drs won't wash their hands, then perhaps they need hall monitors to check on them, I suggest the old fashioned kind who strap the noncompliant ones. :-]

[Sir Bandelot]

My friend is also unionized and can not be fired or reprimanded for being filthy - cos that would hurt his feelings.

Bingo, that is the major course of the problem. These buildings are DIRTY. I've seen some where the door handles are black and sticky with filth, and this continues for weeks on end. I know, I work in one of the places that has problems with this outbreak. It is very difficult to get rid of. Hence the name, C. Difficile. It tends to go into a spore and hibernate for a time, during which it cannot be killed by disinfectant cleaners. So, even if a surface is wiped down, the spores might survive.

But the thing that really exacerbates the problem is, these hospitals are dirty crap-holes. What you see as a visitor is only the front end, kept the cleanest (except for the admin areas, which are the very cleanest of all) and if you go into the basement, or in the staff-only areas you'll see so much dirt that you would be appalled. And bugs too.

The cleaners in our place are not the same as the person you described, but they are very lazy, and not properly trained to clean a medical facility. And the unions protect the workers who do the least of all.

Their managers should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this to continue, even when patients have died from it. Those patients died, although they came in for different reasons.

Don't go to hospitals.

[treehugger]

We have people from the third world or close - as cleaning staff in our hosptials...They don't know how to disinfect or clean...for instance I have a friend who is functional--with mild brain palsy - He is a cleaner at a local hospital - He never baths - his nails are long with dirt under them....and we wonder why disease is spread in hospitals? My friend is also unionized and can not be fired or reprimanded for being filthy - cos that would hurt his feelings.

Right on! Even cleaners have to be trained the CANADIAN WAY!

[MiddleClassCentrist]

This discussion is hilarious...

Let's just blame Dalton for all of our problems.

My friends (and pretty much every single person I know) spend beyond their means. Because of HST this is Dalton's fault.

or why not just extend this idiotic thinking to all deaths in the hospital system. If a patient dies in the OR, it may as well have been at the hand of Dalton.

Public involvement would have most likely increased the C.Difficile outbreak because the public has no concept of how the full health care facility operates. I'm going to run an oil company, excuse me while I consult a career stay at home mother on how to run the company... lol.

First, it insists that hospitals stay within their budgets. That’s fine. But when hospitals exceed these budgets — as those of the Niagara system were doing — the pressure is on to make cuts.

It's laughable that you even used this since that is what the conservatives are known for. CUT CUT CUT!!! ask questions later.

Edited July 12, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[capricorn]

This discussion is hilarious...

It's a serious issue. People are dying in spite of the massive amounts of money we spend on health care.

Let's just blame Dalton for all of our problems.

Dalton is at the helm and he is to blame for the direction this province is taking. That includes the unnecessary loss of lives in our hospitals. The way I see it, Dalton has decided to coddle the unions and we are suffering for it. Massive pay and benefits increases to keep unions and their members happy should pay dividends but instead this has made things worse. We're spending more for diminishing quality of care and health standards. But Dalton is no dummy. In return he has teachers campaigning for him in the classroom or denigrating the other political parties.

Public involvement would have most likely increased the C.Difficile outbreak because the public has no concept of how the full health care facility operates.

You might be right. A major problem is that staff and hospital visitors don't wash their hands when entering the hospitals. Dalton and his gang have done a piss poor job of educating the public on how they can help contain problems like D.difficile.

I'm going to run an oil company, excuse me while I consult a career stay at home mother on how to run the company... lol.

Seeing the incompetence of the staff the province hires and promotes for top jobs in Ontario, that's probably how McGuinty and company recruit those high paid clowns. OLGC and E-health are examples.

[Keepitsimple]

This discussion is hilarious...

Let's just blame Dalton for all of our problems.

My friends (and pretty much every single person I know) spend beyond their means. Because of HST this is Dalton's fault.

or why not just extend this idiotic thinking to all deaths in the hospital system. If a patient dies in the OR, it may as well have been at the hand of Dalton.

You missed the point. Mike Harris was called a murderer (and still is by The Star) because a couple of drunks decided to de-fraud the process. In the end, he was found to "contribute" to Walkerton because of some "cuts". Yet Dalton does the saame thing - reorganizes to cut costs, 20 people die - and he gets a free ride in the media. It's an unfair double standard.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Keepitsimple

[August1991]

Let's just blame Dalton for all of our problems.

We live in a world where people like Dalton McGuinty make decisions that have no effect on their own lives, but have tremendous effect on other people's lives.

People like Dalton McGuinty don't live with the consequences of their decisions.

---

I would prefer a world in which if you make a mistake, you suffer the consequences and if you make the right choice, you enjoy the benefit.

[Wild Bill]

We live in a world where people like Dalton McGuinty make decisions that have no effect on their own lives, but have tremendous effect on other people's lives.

People like Dalton McGuinty don't live with the consequences of their decisions.

---

I would prefer a world in which if you make a mistake, you suffer the consequences and if you make the right choice, you enjoy the benefit.

Are you arguing to bring back capital punishment, at least with politicians?

[capricorn]

Yet Dalton does the saame thing - reorganizes to cut costs, 20 people die - and he gets a free ride in the media. It's an unfair double standard.

Yes it is. But honestly Keepit, I'll feel vindicated when McGuinty gets booted from office on October 3rd. I'm certain that somewhere along the way, someone will write something linking McGuinty to this tragedy.

[Keepitsimple]

Yes it is. But honestly Keepit, I'll feel vindicated when McGuinty gets booted from office on October 3rd. I'm certain that somewhere along the way, someone will write something linking McGuinty to this tragedy.

I'd like him booted from office as well but in spite of my claims of "double standard", I don't think it's really fair to label McGuinty "Doctor Death". The real issue is that Harris should never have been called a murderer - especially for a situation that no one could have anticipated (drunken, unqualified fraudsters appointed by the Municipality). McGuinty changed the delivery model of a bureaucracy that could directly affect the health of the people of Ontario. He is guilty of changing it in a manner that so focused on managing costs - that it turned a wilful deaf ear to problems (cost cutting) that led to the C.Difficile outbreak. In that respect, he is much more responsible for those deaths than Harris was for Walkerton.

[Remiel]

We live in a world where people like Dalton McGuinty make decisions that have no effect on their own lives, but have tremendous effect on other people's lives.

People like Dalton McGuinty don't live with the consequences of their decisions.

How do you figure? 17 people died out of 13.2 million, and you decide that because Dalton did not happen to get nabbed by the 1 in 780,000 odds he was never at risk of the repercussions of his actions? Whether it is Dalton's fault or now, that is just shoddy reasoning.

[Oleg Bach]

Our hospital cleaning staff in most places are comprised of immigrants - who don't know what clean is. I wash a dish - a bit of bleach in the water and some detergent - They just give it a rinse under the tap and a rub with a dirty finger and say "you Canadians worry to much about germs"..

This problem of dirty and infectious hospitals did not exist before but does now - why? Cos' they are not clean - Cleaning staff should be taught and trained properly - You do not go into a hospital washroom that has spots of feces speckeled every where and give it a spray out of some bottle and walk away - you scrub and disinfect untill it is clean - Do you really think that a unionized person from Chile really gives a damn if it is clean? NO they just want their pay cheques - end of story and possibly the end of you.

I had a surgical wound on my side...A nurse who was filling in for absent and striking staff at the time came into the room to change the dressing..She accidentally dropped the bandages on the floor then proceeded to pick up the dressing and attempted to apply it to the wound..I stopped her and said "You are not putting that on me" - It was not that she was inept...she simply did not care..not to mention she was a bit of a prick with a German accent..lol

[treehugger]

This discussion is hilarious...

Let's just blame Dalton for all of our problems.

My friends (and pretty much every single person I know) spend beyond their means. Because of HST this is Dalton's fault.

or why not just extend this idiotic thinking to all deaths in the hospital system. If a patient dies in the OR, it may as well have been at the hand of Dalton.

Public involvement would have most likely increased the C.Difficile outbreak because the public has no concept of how the full health care facility operates. I'm going to run an oil company, excuse me while I consult a career stay at home mother on how to run the company... lol.

It's laughable that you even used this since that is what the conservatives are known for. CUT CUT CUT!!! ask questions later.

As this is not the conservatives gov.what are you saying?

, passing the buck again?

WASHING YOUR HANDS WITH A DISENFECTANT SOAP AFTER AND BEFORE YOU HANDLE A PATIENT SHOULD ELIMINATE C-DIFFICILE.

Stronger rules and supervision in the hospitals!

[MiddleClassCentrist]

As this is not the conservatives gov.what are you saying?

, passing the buck again?

WASHING YOUR HANDS WITH A DISENFECTANT SOAP AFTER AND BEFORE YOU HANDLE A PATIENT SHOULD ELIMINATE C-DIFFICILE.

Stronger rules and supervision in the hospitals!

Yeah, let's increase the costs by adding more supervisors!

Vote NDP!