bush_cheney2004 Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Now... Im not an anti-globalist. I think eventually things were going to go in this direction, and that eventually the standard of life was going to equalize somewhat between the developed and developing worlds. I just think we did it in a pretty wreckless way and that workers in the west were not told the truth about what exactly it was they were buying into. I probably would have tried to do it more gradually and with more of a long term vision. So you want to preserve the uncompetitive "advantage" as long as possible? What is wreckless about the free flow of labor and capital? Workers who refuse to retool and/or adapt will be less competitive, just as they should be. If you work at the job though that produces a very portable work product though, you are going to look back and wish you had been an employed steel worker in 2011 instead of a programmer, or an accountant! Nope...my work product is very very portable, and it is in high demand for that very reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Yes prices would have increased but our ability to pay would have increased faster as well. That's not certain at all either. Im just pointing out that arguments fails in part because the most IMPORTANT things to us have increased in price, and one could argue that we would have been better off not losing all that production even if it meant certain consumer goods were much more expensive. Somebody asked for a cite above, you might also explain what IMPORTANT things have gone up versus down. Our niche.... is basically going to be products and services that are IMPOSSIBLE to offshore... sales, automechanics, and frontend services, some medical procedures. We might not even have the privilege of growing our own food for long. I think that's where we are already. Our food prices are subsidized to keep farmers employed, by the way. Now... Im not an anti-globalist. I think eventually things were going to go in this direction, and that eventually the standard of life was going to equalize somewhat between the developed and developing worlds. I just think we did it in a pretty wreckless way and that workers in the west were not told the truth about what exactly it was they were buying into. I probably would have tried to do it more gradually and with more of a long term vision. I think we had an election over free trade with the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 So you want to preserve the uncompetitive "advantage" as long as possible? What is wreckless about the free flow of labor and capital? Workers who refuse to retool and/or adapt will be less competitive, just as they should be. Nope...my work product is very very portable, and it is in high demand for that very reason. Your job is EASY to outsource, theres a lot of people in the world that are better at it than you that will work for 1/4 of what you make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Your job is EASY to outsource, theres a lot of people in the world that are better at it than you that will work for 1/4 of what you make. I sure hope so...that's how I make my money. You can play victim or adapt to the changing opportunities. China..India...Mexico...or Canada...makes no difference to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 That's not certain at all either. Somebody asked for a cite above, you might also explain what IMPORTANT things have gone up versus down. I think that's where we are already. Our food prices are subsidized to keep farmers employed, by the way. I think we had an election over free trade with the US. Somebody asked for a cite above, you might also explain what IMPORTANT things have gone up versus down. Just type median household income into google. Even though we have doubled the ammount of income earners in most families the percentage of family income spent on fixed costs has increased and the ammount left over has stayed essentially the same. Heres an example... http://wallstcheatsheet.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/fixedcosts1.jpg you might also explain what IMPORTANT things have gone up versus down. Fresh food, gas, oil, natural gas, electricity, water, healthcare, education, national defense, shelter, realestate. Basically all the stuff we cant live without. I think that's where we are already. Our food prices are subsidized to keep farmers employed, by the way. Right well those subsidies are blatant protectionism. If the free traders had their way they would gone and our agricultural sector would be gone with it. I think we had an election over free trade with the US. Im not just talking about one trade agreement, Im talking about the general direction we are headed in and where we end up if it runs its course, and the idea that we can maintain a high standard of life with a service based economy in the long term, and the likehood of a business entity that buys way more stuff than it sells and spends more than it takes in will be sustainable for the long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 If companies want to out source then they had better find another place to sit other than my head- Get off and go sit on the head of those you embrace as new and cheap servants. This bugs me...It is like me putting a kid through medical school and he becomes a high paid doctor - then the kid pretends I do not exist when I get hungry and poor. If the average American would have known 30 years ago that Goldman and Sachs would betray them in the end --- they would have not given support to this corporation and bankrupt them before they became this thankless monster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 That's why this story strikes me as something similar to an arsonist accidentally setting himself on fire. There seem to be a lot of people further up the income and management ladder that were okay with globalization until they discovered that their ox was being gored also! What I find especially scary, after contemplating the reckless attitude - taking shortcuts which led to the BP Gulf Disaster, is that these greed-driven megalomaniacs are willing to roll the dice on ventures that can destroy entire ecosystems and kill and sicken entire populations living in the affected areas. We can see this in the energy-funded campaigns stalling efforts to move out of fossil fuels, and the reckless disregard of safety procedures by the operators of nuclear power stations -- just recently we learned that the operator of the Fort Calhoun Nuclear Plant has been fighting against an NRC official who refused to back down from demands that they build higher flood protection barriers....if the plant operators had got their way, the flooding which almost breached flood containment would have left the U.S. with its own Fukashima Disaster to manage. Again and again, we see the same pattern -- the captains of industry, and their lackeys in government have no regard for the wider implications of their actions. One of the assumptions held by many climate activists is that our leaders will reign in their short term interests when they realize the disaster we are heading into over the coming decades. But this is not the case if we are ruled by psychopaths! There are a few psychologists and neurologists who study abnormal psychology, and make the point that the majority of antisocial types categorized as psychopathic or sociopathic are not serial killers or prison inmates! Prisons have the highest percentage of these misfits of course, but the majority of psychopaths are out there walking among us. And the more intelligent ones, who are immune to the restrictions of personal sentiment like loyalty, empathy etc. are free to slash and burn their ways to the top of the political and corporate ladders. The misfits who are leading the modern world are going to do more than destroy the middle class I'm afraid -- if there's no way for a democratic majority to reign in the rich and well connected, they are going to destroy life on Earth before they are done. Sadly,you are correct as long as these types continue to acquire more power and then consolidate it. There will be a breaking point at some time in the future because the wealth disparity these people want is going to come back to bite them.There is ample historical evidence to prove this... The scenario I keep rolling around in my head is how they are going to try to keep a lid on this? Personally,I think these free maeket types really dislike democracy.I think they really like the Chinese model of an authoritarian/totalitarian power that embraces corporate marketeering combined with a strident nationalism that can be used as a mask to shut up dissent.... Mussolini talked about this and I fear this is the direction we are headed in globally... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Material power is highly addictive. Over the years I saw a man go from a priledged lawyer to a guy that tosses about billions - this person can not be reasoned with - nor will he reliquish one drop of power to anyone. He plans to take it with him I suppose. "did you think that you would live forever - rule the world and control the weather - all I can hope to do is out live you........In the end the only real competative spirit that is worth while is to out live those that are in control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted July 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Why do they need "compensation"? Why can't they just use their own resources and abilities to adapt to changing economic conditions as best they can? You know, the way everyone else does? What you are talking here is faith-based economic theory! You have a notion that acting collectively (as human societies did until modern times) to take a little from those who have, to those who are dispossessed or displaced by economic factors outside of their control, is going to lead to social calamity. And, I've heard of the "free rider" problem that is going to add something to overall costs -- nevertheless, a comparison of nations, and even state or provincial governments within nations, consistently shows that those societies that provide public services and a decent social safety net function much better than the libertarian paradises where it's every man for himself! Many of these factory workers are making more and providing better lives for their families than they could otherwise. They are slowly but surely working their way out of poverty. Hundreds of millions have been raised out of poverty in the developing world precisely in this way over the past couple of decades. The last thing they need is unions to tell them they can't work and drive companies to invest in other countries instead. I can give you many examples, including Mexico and other nations in Latin America and Africa, where the free trade agreements carried demands that the poor nation remove import tariffs on food products, along with restrictions against foreign ownership of their agriculture. The net effect has been that subsistence agriculture...which may have been labour intensive and not as high in total yield, still provided most of the essential foods locally. So, this was the STICK, and the CARROT has been to provide the millions of bankrupt farmers forced off their land and into overcrowded cities with factory jobs. If there was any improvement in living standards, it is just short term, since the ecological destruction of the new industries, and the new fertilizer and water-intensive farms cannot be compensated for by jobs in the new sweat shops. These Chinese workers are doing precisely what they have to do, adapting to economic conditions, taking these manufacturing jobs, and seeing their lives improve as a result. As China goes from developing to developed, their quality of life will improve as well. Meanwhile, people like yourself will still be whining instead of working, wondering why all the jobs went overseas. I believe that in the next 10 years...possibly 20 years, China is going to collapse into internal turmoil! The major reason is that they are discovering...likely too late, that they are headed into an ecological disaster caused by global warming and air and water pollution. Also, a subject that is rarely discussed, is that the old Maoist tyranny was maintained by relative equality between the peasants in the countryside, which made up 80% of the population, with the city-dwellers. That equality has been shattered by the Communist Party's embrace of unbridled capitalism that many are starting to realize, is providing more for some than for others. The promise that capitalism would benefit everyone is turning out as big an empty promise as the promises that free trade promoters gave us 30 years ago! Even some of China's wealthy elite are getting nervous about the growing wealth gap....so, I guess that puts them a little higher up the evolutionary ladder than the leaders of business and industry over here...like the Koch's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted July 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Personally,I think these free maeket types really dislike democracy.I think they really like the Chinese model of an authoritarian/totalitarian power that embraces corporate marketeering combined with a strident nationalism that can be used as a mask to shut up dissent.... I don't think that there is any accident that the most successful practitioners of unfettered capitalism are dictatorships! Remember when Bush One was arguing for liberalizing trade with China with the argument that China's move towards capitalism would strengthen the democracy movement? Bush didn't make it up himself; Milton Friedman and his acolyte - Alan Greenspan were promoting this ideology that free markets leads to political freedom. Pretty much the opposite has happened. Even democratic societies become less free when a wealthy elite control most of the nation's wealth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Mussolini talked about this and I fear this is the direction we are headed in globally... When did il duce talk about corporate marketeering? What is marketeering anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 I don't think that there is any accident that the most successful practitioners of unfettered capitalism are dictatorships! I don't think it's any accident your statement is false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 I don't think that there is any accident that the most successful practitioners of unfettered capitalism are dictatorships! Remember when Bush One was arguing for liberalizing trade with China with the argument that China's move towards capitalism would strengthen the democracy movement? Bush didn't make it up himself; Milton Friedman and his acolyte - Alan Greenspan were promoting this ideology that free markets leads to political freedom. Pretty much the opposite has happened. Even democratic societies become less free when a wealthy elite control most of the nation's wealth. Of course.. One of Uncle Milty's greatest fans was General Augusto Pinochet... Augy was quite the democrat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 When did il duce talk about corporate marketeering? What is marketeering anyway? To quote Il Duce... "Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism,it is the merger of corporate and government power" This is a fairly accurate description of the modern Chinese corporate/authoritarian model... More Mussolini... http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/benito_mussolini.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 To quote Il Duce... "Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism,it is the merger of corporate and government power" This is a fairly accurate description of the modern Chinese corporate/authoritarian model... More Mussolini... http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/benito_mussolini.html Yeah., except the corpoarate he is talking about are not exclusively business corporations, but "bodies"...those bodies are the crown (well,the italian crown) unions, intellectuals, the army, navy, the church...in fact, it has nothing to do with capitalism what so ever and even less to do with the Chinese model which only envisions two corporations, the worker/peasant and the party. This might end your confusion Corporatism, also known as corporativism, is a system of economic, political, or social organization that involves division of the people of society into corporate groups, such as agricultural, business, ethnic, labor, military, patronage, or scientific affiliations, on the basis of common interests.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Of course.. One of Uncle Milty's greatest fans was General Augusto Pinochet... Augy was quite the democrat... On the surface he is quite correct. Look at where there are free markets and you see freedom. Please don't suggest that China is a free market...or russia....on the otherhand, there systems have relaxed and they have also gained a soupcon of liberlness.....then take a look at the freest markets....and you see Canada, the UK, USA, Australia....heck...even India Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 On the surface he is quite correct. Look at where there are free markets and you see freedom. Please don't suggest that China is a free market...or russia....on the otherhand, there systems have relaxed and they have also gained a soupcon of liberlness.....then take a look at the freest markets....and you see Canada, the UK, USA, Australia....heck...even India On the surface he is quite correct. Look at where there are free markets and you see freedom. From what I can tell most of the "freedom" exists in heavily regulated mixed economies like Canada, the US, and europe. The only way that I can see a free market existing is in some kind of totalitarian state, because in a democracy the voters will use the government as an agent to place constraints on participants... millions of pages of them... that govern how participants behave and what they are allowed to do, what they are allowed to sell etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) Of course..One of Uncle Milty's greatest fans was General Augusto Pinochet... Augy was quite the democrat... Milton Friedman and Augusto Pinochet lived decades ago. Pinochet was a Chilean Marxist politician. Friedman was a radical Jewish Leftist.News flash: the Soviet Union no longer exists, and Marxism is nonsense. Jack, how long will the Western Left - the Mob - remain Soviet/Marxist? Edited July 9, 2011 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Milton Friedman and Augusto Pinochet lived decades ago. Pinochet was a Chilean Marxist politician. Friedman was a radical Jewish Leftist. News flash: the Soviet Union no longer exists, and Marxism is nonsense. Jack, how long will the Western Left - the Mob - remain Soviet/Marxist? Jack, how long will the Western Left - the Mob - remain Soviet/Marxist? Incredible dishonesty. The "western left" supports no such thing. The left and right in the west support virtually the same kind of political / economic system, theres just a minor arguments on how much regulation is too much, and whether taxation and spending schemes should be regressive or progressive. Theres a tiny group of quacks on the left that might support state ownership of industry but its just as small as the group of quacks on the right that support a "free market" with a minarchist government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 (edited) Incredible dishonesty. The "western left" supports no such thing. The left and right in the west support virtually the same kind of political / economic system, theres just a minor arguments on how much regulation is too much, and whether taxation and spending schemes should be regressive or progressive. Theres a tiny group of quacks on the left that might support state ownership of industry but its just as small as the group of quacks on the right that support a "free market" with a minarchist government.Dre, incredible dishonesty?You must admit that the aged "Western Left" supports such frauds as the Soviet stooge Pinochet and Leftists like Friedman. It is time for the American Left to move on. My point is that the Western Left, American liberals, are sadly behind the people. The Left must support ordinary people, the Masses. The Left must lead the mob. It must defend victims, the downtrodden. Instead, Pinochet, Krugman and Friedman are frauds who pretend to help ordinary people but in fact harm them. Edited July 10, 2011 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 Dre, incredible dishonesty? You must admit that the aged "Western Left" supports such frauds as the Soviet stooge Pinochet and Leftists like Friedman. It is time for the American Left to move on. My point is that the Western Left, American liberals, are sadly behind the people. The Left must support ordinary people, the Masses. The Left must lead the mob. It must defend victims, the downtrodden. Instead, Pinochet, Krugman and Friedman are frauds who pretend to help ordinary people but in fact harm them. Your claim was they are "Soviet/Marxist". A claim so absurd that I assumed you were being dishonest. You actually might start believing this stuff if youre not carefull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 You must admit that the aged "Western Left" supports such frauds as the Soviet stooge Pinochet and Leftists like Friedman. It is time for the American Left to move on. You honestly have no idea what you're talking about here. Pinochet was an anti-communist, who liked to imprison, torture and kill anyone to the left of..well, of you. Friedman was a free market fundamentalist, who never met an authoritarian right-winger he didn't like. You've gotten confused. My point is that the Western Left, American liberals, are sadly behind the people. The Left must support ordinary people, the Masses. The Left must lead the mob. It must defend victims, the downtrodden. Since you got your facts wrong about who the subjects here were, and who has supported them, you are actually criticizing the Right here...though you don't know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 It's not about capitalism - It is about AMERICA reverting back to slavery as an option for maintaining wealth...Buisness done in China by American companies are guilty of this - WHY pay an AMERICAN a good buck when someone in India or China who under the threat of death will do what they are told including working for next to nothing or nothing - The west sits doing nothing while taping uselessly on a key board and demands that those in poor desperate nations support their material needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 It's not about capitalism - It is about AMERICA reverting back to slavery as an option for maintaining wealth... Slavery is perfectly legal, just as long as it's voluntary! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Milton Friedman and Augusto Pinochet lived decades ago. Pinochet was a Chilean Marxist politician. Friedman was a radical Jewish Leftist. News flash: the Soviet Union no longer exists, and Marxism is nonsense. Jack, how long will the Western Left - the Mob - remain Soviet/Marxist? You're fairly strange but thi effort is hitting well south of the Mendoza line... General Augusto Pinochet was an INSTALLED Fascist dictator after the duly elected President of Chile,Salvador Allende,killed himself ( ) during a CIA/Henry Kissinger orchestrated coup. News flash..I agree Marxism is dead,but libertarians like you are simply the useful idiots of the conservative movement... How long will right wing,and left wing, libertarians remain oblivious to the fact that your views are facile and will never be implemented? By the way,I'd call you clueless about the historical facts of the Allende/Pinochet events,but Bloodyminded did it so much better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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