Major Bust On Reserves In Quebec

[AngusThermopyle]

Although I do not support Marijuanna prohibition or the government directing the choices of informed adults regarding choices that affect themselves I do think this is great news. Organized crime must be fought where and when it is found, from what is presented in this story it sounds like this is a good example of organized crime. After reading about the ring leader and his very lengthy list of previous convictions I have to wonder how severe his sentence will be, given that last time he was caught he only recieved a two year suspended sentence.

“Project Connectivity was launched in January 2010 and established that a criminal organization based in Kanesatake spearheaded a major network involved in the trafficking of controlled substances, mostly marijuana and also cocaine and designer drugs,” he said.

Big Bust

[Oleg Bach]

Just like Caledonia - and other disputes - the Natives have learned to be gangsters from the best - from us!

[Oleg Bach]

When a native who is a successful crimminal steps into our court system - he knows that the judge - the crown and most of the lawyers are unethical - and he knows that if he tosses enough money around the system that the problem will soften and possibly go away. Just like the cocaine dealers that walk free - Thirty years ago I knew of a pot dealer who was busted and he was told if he put money in the "fund" he would walk - If that existed then - I am sure a more sophisticated type of corruption has evolved.

[Oleg Bach]

Oh and also - It's fine for the established sinister guys to deal "perscription" drugs - and even to advertize on television - compounds that you don't need but might like to take "ask your doctor" - billions of dollars are made on oxycodone - on anti-depressants - that can cause harm ...and tons of tranquilzers .............so ---------how come the established drug dealers don't go and bust themselves?

[AngusThermopyle]

Oh and also - It's fine for the established sinister guys to deal "perscription" drugs - and even to advertize on television - compounds that you don't need but might like to take "ask your doctor" - billions of dollars are made on oxycodone - on anti-depressants - that can cause harm ...and tons of tranquilzers .............so ---------how come the established drug dealers don't go and bust themselves?

Well I hate to disapoint you Oleg but this situation really doesn;t have anything to do with government corruption, other than the possibility of stupid non-sentences that may be handed out. This is organized crime and I don't think they learned it from some shadowy group of old white guys controlling everyones destiny, sorry.

You may be happy to know however that our gov is already dealing weed. PPS have been growing it under government license and selling to registered medical marijuana users for years. Apparently the stuff is overpriced crap with practically no medicinal value. Typical of most gov ventures actually. Now they wish to expand their scope of operations. Until now it has been possible to obtain a license to grow for medicinal purposes, not many have been granted,but some have. Now they are looking at eliminating these licenses and instead letting big pharma concerns grow it instead. They cite quality control as one of the principle reasons for this change. A concern they list is that they don't know what is used to grow this stuff currently. Just a little research will show this concern to be a total red herring as medicinal growers pride themselves on being 100% organic, no chemicals or artificial hormones. It would appear that this is just another example of gov interference and tightening of control over citizens. What I find reprehensible is the cynical manner in which sick people are being used as pawns in a pretty apparent agenda.

[eyeball]

What I find reprehensible is the cynical manner in which sick people are being used as pawns in a pretty apparent agenda.

What's even more reprehensible and cynical is the manner in which conservatives who know better than to let the state climb all over people's backs still vote for Conservatives who relish the thought.

[Sir Bandelot]

What's even more reprehensible and cynical is the manner in which conservatives who know better than to let the state climb all over people's backs still vote for Conservatives who relish the thought.

Not I.

[Sir Bandelot]

Well I hate to disapoint you Oleg but this situation really doesn;t have anything to do with government corruption, other than the possibility of stupid non-sentences that may be handed out. This is organized crime and I don't think they learned it from some shadowy group of old white guys controlling everyones destiny, sorry.

Compared to the government, organized crime are a bunch of old grannies.

[Wild Bill]

Compared to the government, organized crime are a bunch of old grannies.

Well said!

I'm reminded of a situation back in the late 70's. I was working at an electronics parts store and in those days they still had counter sales. I got to know a lot of the pinball and video game techs around town that serviced the arcades. This was a brand new thing back then and every variety store and bowling alley also wanted a machine or two in their place, both for the money and for the customer attraction.

They told me that the local organized crime gangs supplied all the locations, for a small monthly fee. Very few operators were foolish enough to try to install a machine on their own.

However, nobody seemed to mind! The feeling was that the gang's fees were reasonable and came with insurance that no competitor would "horn in" on your location.

Meanwhile, the governments were trying to force everyone to install coin counters, so that they could rake off some taxes.

The gang was respected and the governments were not, since the gang gave a worthwhile service for their money while the government merely took and gave nothing back.

[charter.rights]

There will be a Charter challenge over this one.

"Indians" are protected under the Charter, and under the Indian Act from any type of seizure. The only authorization for a seizure must come specifically through a Band Council Resolution (by-law). There was no such by-law and the seizure by the police forces is illegal.

Further, Kahnawake, Kanehsatake and Akwesasne, are not Canadian territories. The Royal Proclamation guaranteed that all of southern Ontario south of the Ottawa was their territory and they could move freely without interference. Southern Ontario was never surrendered to us.

In Derrickson v. Derrickson the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that provincial court orders were not applicable on reserves. That would go as far as court issued search warrants, and other prohibitions issued by the court.

I bet they will get their dope back.

[AngusThermopyle]

There will be a Charter challenge over this one.

"Indians" are protected under the Charter, and under the Indian Act from any type of seizure. The only authorization for a seizure must come specifically through a Band Council Resolution (by-law). There was no such by-law and the seizure by the police forces is illegal.

Further, Kahnawake, Kanehsatake and Akwesasne, are not Canadian territories. The Royal Proclamation guaranteed that all of southern Ontario south of the Ottawa was their territory and they could move freely without interference. Southern Ontario was never surrendered to us.

In Derrickson v. Derrickson the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that provincial court orders were not applicable on reserves. That would go as far as court issued search warrants, and other prohibitions issued by the court.

I bet they will get their dope back.

There may be a charter challenge but I very much doubt it. Even if there was it really wouldn't matter as far as the return of the drugs. By the time all was said and done all they would get back, if anything, would be useless moldy shwag, the cops aren't known for taking care to store such things properly. A recent case in BC involving a registered MMJ patient shows clearly that they don't care, or have the resources to do so properly.

Personally I hope they throw the book at them and it sticks. This is after all organized crime, from the article it appears that it encompasses far more than just the reserves mentioned. As for the ring leader well this bum has gotten away with far too much already. This isn't a case of some guy growing a few plants for himself or his close friends, this is commercial growing for profit, and yes, this sort of enterprise does constitute a threat for the immediate communities in which it occurs. In fact one could say that it is a threat to many communities as quite often weed is exchanged for weapons and hard drugs.

We'll just have to wait and see how it plays out I guess, at this point it's too hard to determine what the overall outcome will eventually be. Of course if the Americans get involved then it really won't matter what anyone says about charters and what some consider to be their territory, the Americans will do what they feel they must do to resolve this.

How do you know there was no band resolution, nowhere in the article does it mention that in any way. What it does say is that the band leader is very supportive and see's it as a positive step towards making the community safer. There very well may have been a resolution for all we know.

[charter.rights]

How do you know there was no band resolution, nowhere in the article does it mention that in any way. What it does say is that the band leader is very supportive and see's it as a positive step towards making the community safer. There very well may have been a resolution for all we know.

I did my research beforehand....

[Oleg Bach]

Well I hate to disapoint you Oleg but this situation really doesn;t have anything to do with government corruption, other than the possibility of stupid non-sentences that may be handed out. This is organized crime and I don't think they learned it from some shadowy group of old white guys controlling everyones destiny, sorry.

You may be happy to know however that our gov is already dealing weed. PPS have been growing it under government license and selling to registered medical marijuana users for years. Apparently the stuff is overpriced crap with practically no medicinal value. Typical of most gov ventures actually. Now they wish to expand their scope of operations. Until now it has been possible to obtain a license to grow for medicinal purposes, not many have been granted,but some have. Now they are looking at eliminating these licenses and instead letting big pharma concerns grow it instead. They cite quality control as one of the principle reasons for this change. A concern they list is that they don't know what is used to grow this stuff currently. Just a little research will show this concern to be a total red herring as medicinal growers pride themselves on being 100% organic, no chemicals or artificial hormones. It would appear that this is just another example of gov interference and tightening of control over citizens. What I find reprehensible is the cynical manner in which sick people are being used as pawns in a pretty apparent agenda.

Do you honestly think that Mike Harris does not have some shadowy group of friends? Do you believe that Mulroney the semi-pro..arms dealer did not have questionable acquantances? Of course some older tribal guys learned that not everything is legitimate when concerning white establishment....and they figure if the big dogs can profit from crime then so can they.

As for medical pot...let the sick and dying have what they want - but also remember typical recreational pot is not the giggly pot of the 70s...It is boardering on crystaline for god's sake - It is now a habitual hard drug.

Busting aboriginal buisness men is strickly done out of spite - It is to show them that THEY are in charge...that only THEY are entitled to the good life through dope and arms sales...It reminds me of when prostition rings started to get bold in the Markham area - they found one dead asian pimp and two dead hookers across the street in the church yard.....still no one knows who showed them who was boss - and righfully so - gangsters are gangsters whether socially legitimate or established. What we see here is a truf war...If the natives were making a million or so - It could be over looked - if it is in the hundreds of millions then that is a serious matter and has to be quashed. Cynical of me? Perhaps.

[eyeball]

As for medical pot...let the sick and dying have what they want - but also remember typical recreational pot is not the giggly pot of the 70s...It is boardering on crystaline for god's sake - It is now a habitual hard drug.

Yeah sorta like the typical recreational hash of the 70's.

[August1991]

Key quote from the news report:

More than 500 police officers from the SQ, RCMP and various First Nations police forces took part in Project Connectivity.

This investigation/bust occurred because people on the reserve are fed up of the actions of a small minority.

[charter.rights]

Key quote from the news report:

This investigation/bust occurred because people on the reserve are fed up of the actions of a small minority.

No. It was the Chief and Band Council who are fed up and they do not represent the majority.

The fact is they broke the law. The police broke the law. There was no BCR to allow the search warrants, and the seizure of anything owned by an Indian on reserve, is illegal. They have the right to grow pot if they want. They can run casinos and manufacturer cigarettes if they want. There is nothing we can do about it.

And as I said earlier there will be a Charter challenge over it, and not only will we lose but it will identify for more First Nations that these kinds of activities are perfectly legal on their territories as well. So instead of combating drug trafficing the illegal actions will have the reverse effect of promoting it.

[Shady]

And as I said earlier there will be a Charter challenge over it, and not only will we lose but it will identify for more First Nations that these kinds of activities are perfectly legal on their territories as well. So instead of combating drug trafficing the illegal actions will have the reverse effect of promoting it.

Complete nonsense. On the bright side, at least they're using the land to grow something!

[charter.rights]

Complete nonsense. On the bright side, at least they're using the land to grow something!

Shady says complete nonsense. I agree! He is.

[AngusThermopyle]

No. It was the Chief and Band Council who are fed up and they do not represent the majority.

The fact is they broke the law. The police broke the law. There was no BCR to allow the search warrants, and the seizure of anything owned by an Indian on reserve, is illegal. They have the right to grow pot if they want. They can run casinos and manufacturer cigarettes if they want. There is nothing we can do about it.

And as I said earlier there will be a Charter challenge over it, and not only will we lose but it will identify for more First Nations that these kinds of activities are perfectly legal on their territories as well. So instead of combating drug trafficing the illegal actions will have the reverse effect of promoting it.

As I said earlier, there will be no charter challenge regarding this. You should look at what you post. In this very post you state it was the chief and band council who did this, then you state there was no BCR about it. After a little more research it appears that the majority of residents were indeed very fed up with the situation and wanted it resolved. These guys have been very bad for the community and, being normal people, the residents wanted it taken care of, so it was.

So no, there will be no charter challenge on this, and no, they will not get their drugs and illegal guns back. The only landmark this case will provide is that of a large co-ordinated action against some very bad elements of society. Even given that your preposterous supposition held water, which it doesn't, the simple fact is that the mass trafficking of drugs and illegal weapons would not be tolerated by Canada or especially the U.S. Sorry but no matter how you spin it this was a simple case of the good guys beating the bad guys, and a big Bravo Zulu to all the forces who made it happen.

Of course I expect you will disagree, thats fine. as time passes and no charter challenge emerges it will be shown to have been nothing more than unfounded speculation.

[charter.rights]

As I said earlier, there will be no charter challenge regarding this. You should look at what you post. In this very post you state it was the chief and band council who did this, then you state there was no BCR about it. After a little more research it appears that the majority of residents were indeed very fed up with the situation and wanted it resolved. These guys have been very bad for the community and, being normal people, the residents wanted it taken care of, so it was.

So no, there will be no charter challenge on this, and no, they will not get their drugs and illegal guns back. The only landmark this case will provide is that of a large co-ordinated action against some very bad elements of society. Even given that your preposterous supposition held water, which it doesn't, the simple fact is that the mass trafficking of drugs and illegal weapons would not be tolerated by Canada or especially the U.S. Sorry but no matter how you spin it this was a simple case of the good guys beating the bad guys, and a big Bravo Zulu to all the forces who made it happen.

Of course I expect you will disagree, thats fine. as time passes and no charter challenge emerges it will be shown to have been nothing more than unfounded speculation.

Wrong. I understand from my friends in Montreal that the motion is being prepared as we speak.

[AngusThermopyle]

Actually I mis-worded what I said. They may indeed file a motion regarding this, anyone is entitled to do so regarding just about anything. That does not mean it will be succesfull though. In this case its pretty much guaranteed that it will fail and as such merely be a waste of time and tax payers money, that is if it even gets far enough to warrant any kind of serious hearing or debate.

[Chippewa]

There will be a Charter challenge over this one.

"Indians" are protected under the Charter, and under the Indian Act from any type of seizure. The only authorization for a seizure must come specifically through a Band Council Resolution (by-law). There was no such by-law and the seizure by the police forces is illegal.

Further, Kahnawake, Kanehsatake and Akwesasne, are not Canadian territories. The Royal Proclamation guaranteed that all of southern Ontario south of the Ottawa was their territory and they could move freely without interference. Southern Ontario was never surrendered to us.

In Derrickson v. Derrickson the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that provincial court orders were not applicable on reserves. That would go as far as court issued search warrants, and other prohibitions issued by the court.

I bet they will get their dope back.

Under section 87,88,89 of the Indian Act.

" personal property of an indian is not subjected to seizure by any legal process."

The Indian Act superceeds both Provincial, and Federal Laws.

[Shwa]

Under section 87,88,89 of the Indian Act.

" personal property of an indian is not subjected to seizure by any legal process."

The Indian Act superceeds both Provincial, and Federal Laws.

The Indian Act IS a federal law, so how can it supercede itself?

Section 87 refers only to taxation and is subject to a "nothwithstanding" test.

Section 88 refers to legal rights that say, "...all laws of general application from time to time in force in any province are applicable to and in respect of Indians in the province, except to the extent that those laws are inconsistent with this Act..."

Section 89 refers the illegal seizure of property and is modified so that "...in favour or at the instance of any person other than an Indian or a band" means that if the Band themselves agreed to the raid, it was perfectly legal seizure.

Furthermore, Section 90 also defines "personal property:"

90. (1) For the purposes of sections 87 and 89, personal property that was

(a) purchased by Her Majesty with Indian moneys or moneys appropriated by Parliament for the use and benefit of Indians or bands, or

( given to Indians or to a band under a treaty or agreement between a band and Her Majesty,

It would be a tough sell to say that dope grown on the reserve would constitute "personal property" especially since it was obviously trade goods.

Finally, if the dope was actually grown on the reserve, section 93 would apply:

93. A person who, without the written permission of the Minister or his duly authorized representative,

(a) removes or permits anyone to remove from a reserve

(i) minerals, stone, sand, gravel, clay or soil, or

(ii) trees, saplings, shrubs, underbrush, timber, cordwood or hay, or

( has in his possession anything removed from a reserve contrary to this section,

is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to both.

No doubt that there are standing agreements between the Minister and police forces.

[Oleg Bach]

Yeah sorta like the typical recreational hash of the 70's.

The hash was made by monk like guys who put a bit of love into it...I remember the stuff - It smelled like some holy incense...and you are wrong if you want to compare the two. It was not the wheel chair make you nuts crap..it was mild and it was generated under the sun with out the pushy assistance of greed.

Todays dope - I call greed weed - It is genetically altered - it is chemically pushed along to grow faster - the people who sell the stuff are basically evil proviteers - and that evil glows out of the product. I heard a biolgist say that the new pot is not Cannabis Sativa...he had another name for it - For people to stick to their guns with all this "natural" justification are totally delluded..It is now a buisness - there is no doctrine of peace and love in it's use - and lastly - the stuff is nasty and habit forming...Remembering the bygone era of pot use - I really do not remember there being as many chronic users.

[Chippewa]

The Indian Act IS a federal law, so how can it supercede itself?

Section 87 refers only to taxation and is subject to a "nothwithstanding" test.

Section 88 refers to legal rights that say, "...all laws of general application from time to time in force in any province are applicable to and in respect of Indians in the province, except to the extent that those laws are inconsistent with this Act..."

Section 89 refers the illegal seizure of property and is modified so that "...in favour or at the instance of any person other than an Indian or a band" means that if the Band themselves agreed to the raid, it was perfectly legal seizure.

Furthermore, Section 90 also defines "personal property:"

It would be a tough sell to say that dope grown on the reserve would constitute "personal property" especially since it was obviously trade goods.

Finally, if the dope was actually grown on the reserve, section 93 would apply:

No doubt that there are standing agreements between the Minister and police forces.

"Not Subject to any siezure under any legal process".

That means it superceeds, both Provincial and Federal Laws.

I think you are forgeting that First Nations have Treaty and Aboriginal Rights. Nothing in Canadian law would ever superceed any of those rights. ITs like The U.S.A charging Canada for genocide of First Nations people. U.S has No jurisdiction on Canadian Territory. Treatys were Nation to Nation basis. First Nations would need to charge them under there own laws, and judicial system, like the U.S.A has allowed First Nations to set up in the States.

It would be the same as Canada siezing the 15 billion dollar poppy fields in Afgahnistan, then charging them with producing and selling Heroin. Since Canada went to Afgahnistan, the poppy industry grew from a 6 billion dollar business to a 15 billion dollar business.