Canada's Involvement in Syria

[Guest Derek L]

If you are a defense contractor, your goal is to create a weapon the military will use in battle. So you are banking on wars or perpetual war to keep that money train going. No wars, no need for the MIC. Lobby the gov to get into wars so you can keep selling weapons. Create a problem to offer a solution.

The reason why you made money, is because the weapons was chosen to be used to kill or to destroy. You are not investing in defense, you are investing in death.

Do you think diaper manufactures lobby the governments to encourage childbirth?

More Canadians have died or been seriously injured in car accidents in the last ten years then in Afghanistan.

As for “investing in death”, well yeah, of the other guy.

[M.Dancer]

Go read the links I provided a few pages back........The NOC entered into a partnership mentorship with each of the foreign companies.........Hey, thanks for coming out though

Yep..and that is on top of what they are producing.

[Guest Derek L]

Yep..and that is on top of what they are producing.

Nope, most of the dramatic increase in production in the last few years is attributed to the foreign companies increasing efficiency on existing NOC holdings

[Bob]

Libya is essentially a country without allies. Even its Arab League brethren washed their hands of Gaddhafi.

What in the world are you talking about? The Arab League is still very much Libya's ally. They're condemning bombing campaigns by NATO while simultaneously opposing "boots on the ground". They're skirting the fence and stalling in order to play to the Arab street, which views all Muslim blood as sacred, unless spilled by other Muslims. And while all this is going on, have the Arabs lifted as much as a finger to help Libya in one way or another? No, they're content to sit idly by and launch criticisms from their conferences while doing nothing - and the West pulls all the weight.

The hypocrisy of the Arabs is sickening.

[GostHacked]

What in the world are you talking about? The Arab League is still very much Libya's ally. They're condemning bombing campaigns by NATO while simultaneously opposing "boots on the ground". They're skirting the fence and stalling in order to play to the Arab street, which views all Muslim blood as sacred, unless spilled by other Muslims. And while all this is going on, have the Arabs lifted as much as a finger to help Libya in one way or another? No, they're content to sit idly by and launch criticisms from their conferences while doing nothing - and the West pulls all the weight.

The hypocrisy of the Arabs is sickening.

Actually in this case it is a hypocrisy of the West. Humanitarian aid to Libya at the same time the west bombs the shit out of Libya's infrastructure.

[M.Dancer]

Nope, most of the dramatic increase in production in the last few years is attributed to the foreign companies increasing efficiency on existing NOC holdings

The pre war production of oil for libya was about 1B BPD

Foreign producers accounted 460 million BPD...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/libya-oil-idUSLDE72F22G20110316

[GostHacked]

The pre war production of oil for libya was about 1B BPD

Foreign producers accounted 460 million BPD...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/libya-oil-idUSLDE72F22G20110316

It's not about the amount of oil in this case, it is the quality of the oil. Very little refinement is needed to make it usable.

[M.Dancer]

It's not about the amount of oil in this case, it is the quality of the oil. Very little refinement is needed to make it usable.

When someone makes a clainm that 90% of the oil is produced by western nations, it is about the amount

[Guest Derek L]

The pre war production of oil for libya was about 1B BPD

Foreign producers accounted 460 million BPD...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/libya-oil-idUSLDE72F22G20110316

Go look at the history of some of the oil company’s links I provided……some have involvement in Libya predating Gaddafi’s leadership.....

[M.Dancer]

Go look at the history of some of the oil company’s links I provided……some have involvement in Libya predating Gaddafi’s leadership.....

So?

What does that have to do with your erroneous claim that 90% of the production is by foreign firms?

[bush_cheney2004]

The pre war production of oil for libya was about 1B BPD

Foreign producers accounted 460 million BPD...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/libya-oil-idUSLDE72F22G20110316

Whoa...that's a lot of oil! 1B = 1 billion. Hell, I'd go to Libya too for that kind of action.

[ToadBrother]

What in the world are you talking about? The Arab League is still very much Libya's ally. They're condemning bombing campaigns by NATO while simultaneously opposing "boots on the ground". They're skirting the fence and stalling in order to play to the Arab street, which views all Muslim blood as sacred, unless spilled by other Muslims. And while all this is going on, have the Arabs lifted as much as a finger to help Libya in one way or another? No, they're content to sit idly by and launch criticisms from their conferences while doing nothing - and the West pulls all the weight.

The hypocrisy of the Arabs is sickening.

For political reasons the Arab League has to look tough on NATO. In reality, they very much want Gaddafi gone.

[Bob]

For political reasons the Arab League has to look tough on NATO. In reality, they very much want Gaddafi gone.

That may very well be true among some in the elites, but since neither you nor I can read their minds, I'll go by what they say, don't say, do, and don't do. I do believe there's some truth in what you're saying, and I think it's somewhat ironic as the dictators are reaping the rewards of the decades of indoctrination they've been implementing in their societies to sow hatred for the West. If they want to maintain some semblance of political credibility (which isn't entirely important considering these are all authoritarian societies), they need to hate the West no matter what.

Still, I don't think it's so much an issue of support for Gaddafi rather than opposition to anything and everything West does. If they hate Gaddafi, they hate America and the West even more. At least Gaddafi sponsored murderers around the world that killed the dreaded Kaffirs, and aggressively spoke out against the West and parroted the anti-Western Islamic narrative.

[Guest Derek L]

When someone makes a clainm that 90% of the oil is produced by western nations, it is about the amount

As I’ve said, and with the links I’ve provided, ~90% of the oil production is done by western companies……….If you subtract the western companies private holdings and look at the NOC’s alone, you’ll find that at every major field and refinery the NOC is in a “partnership” with a Western company.

From the link you provided:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Oil_Corporation

In November 2005, Repsol YPF discovered a significant oil deposit of light, sweet crude in the Murzuq Basin. Industry experts believe the discovery to be one of the biggest made in Libya for several years. Repsol YPF is joined by a consortium of partners including OMV, Total and Norsk Hydro. Also located in Murzuq Basin is Eni’s Elephant field, onshore in Block NC-174. In October 1997, a consortium led by British company Lasmo, along with Eni and a group of five South Korean companies, announced that it had discovered large recoverable crude reserves 465 miles (748 km) south of Tripoli. Lasmo estimated field production would cost around $1 per barrel. Elephant began production in February 2004. Eni (33.3% equity interest) operated the field for joint-venture partners NOC (33.3%), Korea National Oil Co. (16.67%), SK Corp of Korea (8.33%), Majuko Enterprise, Ltd. of Korea (5%), and Daesung Industrial Co. Ltd. of Korea (3.3%). The field was expected to produce 150,000 bbl/d (24,000 m3/d) when fully operational in 2007.[16]

On December 29, 2005, ConocoPhillips and co-venturers reached an agreement with NOC to return to its oil and natural gas exploration and production operations in Libya and extend the 13-million-acre (53,000 km2) Waha concessions another 25 years. ConocoPhillips operates the Waha fields with a 16.33% share in the project. NOC has the largest share of the Waha concession, and additional partners include Marathon (16.33%) and Amerada Hess.[17]

NOC owns and operates several refining facilities, in addition to many oil and natural gas processing companies. Close to 380,000 bbl/d (60,000 m3/d) of crude is refined by NOCs subsidiaries. Approximately 60% of refined products are exported, primarily to Europe. These are simple hydroskimming refineries, but their products meet market specifications due to high quality crude. As of early June 2007, NOC was evaluating investment proposals for upgrading its Ras Lanuf refinery. Total cost of the upgrade is estimated at $2 billion. NOC is also expected to re-tender an engineering, procurement and construction contract for upgrading the Zawia refinery. NOC's refineries include:

In May 2005, Shell agreed to a final deal with NOC to develop Libyan oil and gas resources, including LNG export facilities. The deal came after lengthy negotiations on the terms of a March 2004 framework agreement. Reportedly, Shell is aiming to upgrade and expand Marsa Brega and possibly build a new LNG export facility as well at a cost of $105-$450 million

In June 2007, U.S.-based Colony Capital reached an agreement to take over 65% of Tamoil, while the Libyan government will retain 35%. Libya will continue to control Tamoil Africa, which operates retail stations in Egypt and Burkina Faso, as well as other African nations. NOC oil is also sold on a term basis to foreign oil companies like Agip, OMV, Repsol YPF, Tupras, CEPSA, and Total; and small volumes to Asian and South African companies.

[Moonlight Graham]

Libya is hardly a major oil power. As much as anything, I think, it's about preventing waves of Libyan immigrants flooding into Europe and other North African countries.

9th largest oil reserves in the world. I think that makes it a major oil power.

[RNG]

9th largest oil reserves in the world. I think that makes it a major oil power.

Do you know what reserves means? Their production currently is less than a million bbls/day.

Global oil demand is about 87 million bbls/d right now, down from about 92/d.

Edited June 28, 2011 by RNG

[M.Dancer]

As I’ve said, and with the links I’ve provided, ~90% of the oil production is done by western companies……….

I have yet to see a link that has made that claim.

And this, I take with more authority than the irrelevancies you have been posting...

Daniel Johnston, an oil consultant and engineer who has advised the Egyptian and Moroccan governments on production contracts, said he would be very surprised if more than "a trickle" of oil was still coming out of Libya. "More than 50% of the country's oil production comes from international companies and they just hate that kind of unrest.

"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/02/libya-oil-exports-cut

You have claimed that these same firms lobbied for war...

[Guest Derek L]

I have yet to see a link that has made that claim.

And this, I take with more authority than the irrelevancies you have been posting...

"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/02/libya-oil-exports-cut

More then 50%....huh....So that would leave the remainder to the NOC? The same NOC that is in partnerships with foreign companies on all of it’s holdings,as is shown in the links I’ve provided (Some of which you first posted)?

You have claimed that these same firms lobbied for war...

No, intervention after the civil war started......"they just hate that kind of unrest"

[M.Dancer]

No, intervention after the civil war started......"they just hate that kind of unrest"

Really...so they prefered the civil war to...?

"I don't think that any company would want to deal with Libya at this stage, given the confusion on the ground.

"

.

"More than 50% of the country's oil production comes from international companies and they just hate that kind of unrest."

The unrest of civil war...but you claim they are for it....

[Guest Derek L]

Really...so they prefered the civil war to...?

The unrest of civil war...but you claim they are for it....

I never claimed they're for it (or behind it), but an opportunity to see a business friendly, stable government take power is not something they’d be opposed to (and lobby for)…….Just as if Gaddafi had of remained moderate and not opine about nationalisation & tearing up of current contracts, I’m certain you’d have seen the same Western response as what was given to Syria……indifference.

[M.Dancer]

I never claimed they're for it (or behind it), but an opportunity to see a business friendly, stable government take power is not something they’d be opposed to (and lobby for)…….Just as if Gaddafi had of remained moderate and not opine about nationalisation & tearing up of current contracts, I’m certain you’d have seen the same Western response as what was given to Syria……indifference.

So lobbying for intervention during the civil war is not being for the civil war....right.

I understand now, despite the antipathy towards chaos, the powers that be lobbied for chaos...

[Guest Derek L]

So lobbying for intervention during the civil war is not being for the civil war....right.

I understand now, despite the antipathy towards chaos, the powers that be lobbied for chaos...

I’m a lifelong Leafs fan, but cheered for the Bruins during the cup….Does that make me a lifelong Bruins fan?

The civil war happened regardless, why not make the most of it?

Again, I’ve never stated they lobbied for “chaos”, but for intervention during a time of “chaos”………apples and wheelbarrows.....

So why aren’t we in Syria again?

[M.Dancer]

The civil war happened regardless, why not make the most of it?

And given that business prefers stability over chaos....your dogs don't hunt...evvidence? How long would the civil war lasted without intervention?

But nevertheless, that is your unsupported opinion, you are free to believe what ever nonsense you wish

Again, I’ve never stated they lobbied for “chaos”, but for intervention during a time of “chaos”………apples and wheelbarrows.....

I am convinced you don't know what you stated

Do I think the oil companies “engineered” the civil war within Libya……..of course not, why further jeopardise their investments………Do I think the oil companies used their influence in lobbying their parent countries after the birth of the Arab Spring to take action in Libya? Of course they did.

If they didn't want chaos, all they needed to do was to stand in the wings and watch Gaddafi crush the rebellion....but, you claim the oil companies did exactly the opposite...for what reason you claim? Because Gaddafi threatened to nationalize the oil bus....which for some reason didn't stop further investment in the nation.

So what we have here are erroneous claims (90% oil produced by western companies) spurious claims (we are in libya) and idiotic claims ( the oil companies lobbied for intervention)

So why aren’t we in Syria again?

[William Ashley]

Wealthy libya that country that gave money to its people from its oil wealth a developed society to

WE NEED MORE MONEY we are only one of the biggest oil producing states in the world.. loan us 100 million dollars to help humanitarian missions... so much for helping civilians by bombing the country

http://news.google.ca/news/url?sa=t&ct2=ca%2F0_0_s_2_0_t&ct3=MAA4AEgCUABgAWoCY2E&usg=AFQjCNEN3_hAowjX1X8Z6sEU5taM8TPcWA&did=c9e4ab049baeb670&cid=17593913530748&ei=OM4LTojwO9PrggeGmr_tAQ&rt=SEARCH&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2F2011%2F06%2F29%2Fus-libya-east-cash-idUSTRE75S61020110629

Its only 500000 people why not just have them as refugees in all the NATO countries trying to defend them you know ferry 1000 a day... before the war is over they could all be gone living in france and britain and canada and the US?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/29/us-libya-east-cash-idUSTRE75S61020110629

couldn't you fly them all out for 100 million?

Heck I bet they could move 2000 people out a day if they used boats and planes.. heck 10 flights a day that must be close to 3000 people.

Sounds like it would cost less, and all those pro nato libyan's can be saved.. WHO'S WITH ME!

A 747 has 416 seats. so that is 1000 flights..

RMS Queen Mary 2 can hold 3000 people alone.

Qatar has a population of 1.5 m maybe a half million more libyans will be good for it? Start turning it into a "middle power" Qatar loves the guys http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5437.htm

They have a 400k demographic causing a woman shortage. Heck they could use 400k Libyan women! Heck maybe more... some Arabs have multiple wives. Perhaps they can open up more than their bombbays. Both are Sunni too.

Heck gonna be a lot of dead and disabled male libyans anyway. Everyone needs some love.

Edited June 30, 2011 by William Ashley

[Guest Derek L]

And given that business prefers stability over chaos....your dogs don't hunt...evvidence? How long would the civil war lasted without intervention?

But nevertheless, that is your unsupported opinion, you are free to believe what ever nonsense you wish

The civil war was back and fourth like a tennis match before the West intervened……at one point the rebels where on the outskirts of Tripoli, days later after Gaddafi brought in Syrian mercenaries, the rebels where pushed back to the other side of the country…….then they pushed back the Merc’s to back…..without Western intervention, the conflict would likely have continued the same…..with Western intervention, the lines have firmed up with roughly half the oil fields and refineries under rebel control.....So you feel the "chaos" of the conflict prior to the West intervening was in the oil companies interests?

I am convinced you don't know what you stated

My position has been the same since the beginning of the thread, and I’ve provided the material that I base my supported opinion on, which you’ve yet to refute or prove wrong…in many cases, facts & numbers provided by the oil companies themselves….Your positions & unsupported opinions(?) has been proven wrong on numerous times by me in this thread……..I’m convinced, based on your constant dodges, insults & unsupported conjecture, prior to this discussion, your only exposure to the oil & gas industry is when you’re filling up your tank.

If they didn't want chaos, all they needed to do was to stand in the wings and watch Gaddafi crush the rebellion....but, you claim the oil companies did exactly the opposite...for what reason you claim? Because Gaddafi threatened to nationalize the oil bus....which for some reason didn't stop further investment in the nation.

The outcome of the conflict was never a given (to either side) prior to Western intervention……as for further investment after Gaddafi’s threats, what would you expect? The oil companies to leave? Tell Gaddafi to pound sand? Take their ball and go home?

So what we have here are erroneous claims (90% oil produced by western companies) spurious claims (we are in libya) and idiotic claims ( the oil companies lobbied for intervention)

So why aren’t we in Syria again?

Have you proven my claim, or the contracts (from the link you provided) between Western companies and the NOC to be false?

Have you proven international laws on airspace and territorial waters to be false?

And, you’ve yet to provide evidence to support your claim as to why we are in Libya, and not Syria……