ToadBrother Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 I’ve backed up my opinion with open source facts….you’ve backed up yours with insults and happy faces…. Whats that fancy Latin word again? You've backed them up with pointless non sequiturs. At any rate, the US basically had to be cajoled into getting involved in Libya, by and large this was an Anglo-French initiative that needed US naval and air support to work properly. In fact, the one Western country that is most affected by Libyan unrest is Italy, which has been put in a rather difficult spot of supporting its allies while trying not to make enemies with whoever ends up on top in Libya. As to Syria, as has been pointed out, there is no real organized rebel or revolutionary movement, Assad Jr. and his generals and secret police have far more control over the country, so it's difficult to see where anyone else could insert itself. The best we've done so far is to have Turkey open its border to allow refugees escaping the barbarism a place to stay. More importantly, as I've said, the road to Damascus is ultimately the road to Tehran, and before anyone takes a step towards toppling that particular bloc, much care must be taken. In other words, your conspiracy theory is pure unadulterated unintelligent drivel. I don't even know what an "open source fact" is. Is it licensed on GPLv2 or the Apache or BSD license? Quote
Guest Derek L Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 You've backed them up with pointless non sequiturs. At any rate, the US basically had to be cajoled into getting involved in Libya, by and large this was an Anglo-French initiative that needed US naval and air support to work properly. In fact, the one Western country that is most affected by Libyan unrest is Italy, which has been put in a rather difficult spot of supporting its allies while trying not to make enemies with whoever ends up on top in Libya. Uh-huh…..Didn’t Italy just call for end to hostilities? So it’s in Italy’s interest to have the status quo remain? As to Syria, as has been pointed out, there is no real organized rebel or revolutionary movement, Assad Jr. and his generals and secret police have far more control over the country, so it's difficult to see where anyone else could insert itself. The best we've done so far is to have Turkey open its border to allow refugees escaping the barbarism a place to stay. More importantly, as I've said, the road to Damascus is ultimately the road to Tehran, and before anyone takes a step towards toppling that particular bloc, much care must be taken. With Western support, the Syrian Kurdish resistance would be several magnitudes stronger then the Libyan rebels..It’s organised and been around for decades......with that said......I haven’t called for action to be taken in Syria, I’ve stated that it would be possible to conduct a Libyan like action there, and if Italy refuses the further usage of it’s airbases, from British bases in Cyprus, American & Turkish bases in Turkey and IDF bases in Israel, such a mission would be easier logistically and diplomatically..... In other words, your conspiracy theory is pure unadulterated unintelligent drivel. I don't even know what an "open source fact" is. Is it licensed on GPLv2 or the Apache or BSD license? I've yet to be proven wrong with any of my "non sequiturs"...They sure seem to draw alot of insults and emoticons....yet to see any refutation mind you. Quote
M.Dancer Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Uh-huh…..Didn’t Italy just call for end to hostilities? No they didn't. They called for a ceasefire to deliver humanitarian aide. Which does not negate then fact they offered up their bases for the attacks. So it’s in Italy’s interest to have the status quo remain? Which status quo? With Western support, the Syrian Kurdish resistance would be several magnitudes stronger then the Libyan rebels..It’s organised and been around for decades......with that said......I haven’t called for action to be taken in Syria, I’ve stated that it would be possible to conduct a Libyan like action there, and if Italy refuses the further usage of it’s airbases, from British bases in Cyprus, American & Turkish bases in Turkey and IDF bases in Israel, such a mission would be easier logistically and diplomatically..... It isn't possible because it won't happen. Turkey will not and it is stupid in the extreme to think Israel would too or if they did, stir up the hornets nest in doing so. Edited June 23, 2011 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 I've yet to be proven wrong with any of my "non sequiturs"...They sure seem to draw alot of insults and emoticons....yet to see any refutation mind you. WHy would anyone want to refute the irrelevant? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
ToadBrother Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Uh-huh…..Didn’t Italy just call for end to hostilities? So it’s in Italy’s interest to have the status quo remain? Italy has been lukewarm about the campaign from the very beginning, because it, more than almost any other country, has huge vested interests in Libya, particularly in oil. For everyone else, if there's a self-serving aspect here, it's to prevent a mass migration of Libyans fleeing Gaddafi's increasingly vicious and pointless regime and causing a humanitarian disaster in neighboring North African states and southern Europe. With Western support, the Syrian Kurdish resistance would be several magnitudes stronger then the Libyan rebels..It’s organised and been around for decades......with that said......I haven’t called for action to be taken in Syria, I’ve stated that it would be possible to conduct a Libyan like action there, and if Italy refuses the further usage of it’s airbases, from British bases in Cyprus, American & Turkish bases in Turkey and IDF bases in Israel, such a mission would be easier logistically and diplomatically..... Supporting any Kurdish resistance is going to run afoul of Turkey, as it has every time someone floated it in the past. Besides, the Kurds are certainly not of sufficient numbers to meaningfully threaten the Syrian state. About the best you'd get is a Kurdish sub-state kept alive by Western air support. I've yet to be proven wrong with any of my "non sequiturs"...They sure seem to draw alot of insults and emoticons....yet to see any refutation mind you. There's nothing to prove wrong. As the old joke in science goes, your claims are not even wrong. Edited June 23, 2011 by ToadBrother Quote
Guest Derek L Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 No they didn't. They called for a ceasefire to deliver humanitarian aide. Which does not negate then fact they offered up their bases for the attacks. What's the difference? Nor does it negate the fact that airstrikes flown from RAF bases in Cyprus would be reliant on host nation support… Which status quo? Libya, or large sections of it, still being ruled by Gaddafi with the two main oil refineries being under his control. Quote
Guest Derek L Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 Italy has been lukewarm about the campaign from the very beginning, because it, more than almost any other country, has huge vested interests in Libya, particularly in oil. For everyone else, if there's a self-serving aspect here, it's to prevent a mass migration of Libyans fleeing Gaddafi's increasingly vicious and pointless regime and causing a humanitarian disaster in neighboring North African states and southern Europe. I agree with you 100% that Oil is a major factor in the conflict, not only Italian requirements but also French……And when one looks deeper into the foreign investment of the Libyan oil industry, one would find that it’s source is Western European & Canadian companies…….not too mention, most of the infrastructure associated with the Nubian aquifer has been built and maintained by a company with it’s headquarters in Calgary. Supporting any Kurdish resistance is going to run afoul of Turkey, as it has every time someone floated it in the past. Besides, the Kurds are certainly not of sufficient numbers to meaningfully threaten the Syrian state. About the best you'd get is a Kurdish sub-state kept alive by Western air support. Again I agree with you 100%, this was made evident by the Turkish refusal of allowing it’s boarder as a staging ground by the 4th Inf Div prior to the second Persian excursion…….Still, anyone who predicted a year ago that we’d be in Libya would be called a Tin-hatter……you never know. Quote
ToadBrother Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 I agree with you 100% that Oil is a major factor in the conflict, not only Italian requirements but also French……And when one looks deeper into the foreign investment of the Libyan oil industry, one would find that it’s source is Western European & Canadian companies…….not too mention, most of the infrastructure associated with the Nubian aquifer has been built and maintained by a company with it’s headquarters in Calgary. Libya is such a small oil supplier that I can't imagine on the face of it how you can think it would be worth it to smack down Gaddafi over oil. Libya is a bit player, at best. Quote
Guest Derek L Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Libya is such a small oil supplier that I can't imagine on the face of it how you can think it would be worth it to smack down Gaddafi over oil. Libya is a bit player, at best. It might be small in terms of barrels produced (Compared to say Saudi Arabia or Canada), but between BP (UK), Total (France), Wintershall (Germany), ENI (Italy), Respsol (Spain) and Petro-Canada, foreign ownership/control of Libyan oil fields and production facilities accounts for over 90%……..Notice there’s hardly any major US companies? And involvement in the conflict? Going the other way, Libya’s top three arms suppliers are France, Italy & the United Kingdom….. Quote
Guest Derek L Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 (edited) Here's some late night reading for those interested: http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=2012968&contentId=7033600 BP and its Libyan partner, the Libya Investment Corporation (LIC), today signed a major exploration and production agreement with Libya's National Oil Company (NOC). The initial exploration commitment is set at a minimum of $900million, with significant additional appraisal and development expenditures upon exploration success. http://en.noclibya.com.ly/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=133&Itemid=0 Total has been present in Libya for the past 50 years. Today, Total E&P Libye is in partnership with the National Oil Corporation on a number of projects, among which the development of the Mabruk field in the East Libyan Basin of Sirt, and the Al Jurf field at sea, next to the Tunisian border. Both these projects are operated by a sister company, Compagnie des Pétrole Total http://www.wintershall.com/libya.html Wintershall holds licenses in eight onshore oil fields in concessions 96 und 97 in the Libyan desert. The operating facilities are located about 1,000 kilometers south-east of Tripoli. Wintershall also holds a share in the offshore oil field Al Jurf (Block C 137) off the coast of Libya. Wintershall has been involved in crude oil exploration and production in Libya since 1958.The largest deposit where Wintershall produces is the oil field As Sarah near the Jakhira oasis. A facility has also been set up there for treating the associated gas from oil production so that the gas and condensate can be transported to the coast for sale. In addition, in 2006 the BASF subsidiary was awarded the license for another exploration area covering more than 11,000 square kilometers in the south-east of Libya. http://www.eni.com/en_IT/eni-world/libya/eni-business/eni-business.shtml n June 2008, in execution of the Record of Conclusion signed in October 2007, Eni and NOC, the state-owned oil company, finalised the six Exploration and Production Sharing (EPSA IV) contracts that converted the original agreements that regulated Eni's oil and gas exploration and developments operations in the country. The agreement extended Eni's mining rights in the country until the end of 2042 for production of oil and until 2047 for the production of gas. The contracts establish the terms for new and future developments in collaboration between the two companies with the aim of developing the ample existing hydrocarbon resources, particularly through important gas projects. http://www.repsol.com/es_en/corporacion/prensa/notas-de-prensa/ultimas-notas/libia_i.aspx Last year, Repsol extended its contracts to operate and explore for oil in Libya to 2032 in blocks NC115 and NC186. The extension agreed with Libyan National Oil Corporation implies a gross investment in excess of $2 billion to reach a plateau production level of 380,000 barrels of oil per day. This rise in production represents a major contribution to NOC´s aspiration of doubling Libya's oil output to more than 3 million barrels per day in the coming years.Repsol, present in Libya since the 1970’s, began this year to produce oil at the I/R field, Libya’s largest oil discovery for a decade. The field was found by Repsol in 2006. Repsol in the third quarter produced 64,000 barrels of oil equivalent a day in the North of Africa, 55,000 boed of which are oil. http://www.suncor.com/en/about/3986.aspx Suncor (or Petro-Canada, as we’re still known in Libya) has a 50% working interest in Harouge Oil Operations, which is a joint venture company with the National Oil Corporation of Libya (NOC). Harouge is charged with developing and producing from existing fields (including Amal, Ghani, En Naga and Ed Dib), and new commercial discoveries. The facts hiding in plain site, notice the links lead to the Oil companies themselves, not Alex Jones Edited June 24, 2011 by Derek L Quote
Guest Derek L Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Hmmmm........NATO would never get into a dust-up with Syria right? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/8595030/Turkish-and-Syrian-forces-in-tense-cross-border-standoff.html Turkey has watched Mr Assad's brutal operation to quell opposition in Syria's restive northwest with growing alarm and has resorted to increasingly muscular diplomacy to demand an end to military operations close to the border. Most significantly, Turkish officials last week raised the possibility of a limited military incursion into northern Syria to protect civilians. Quote
M.Dancer Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Here's some late night reading for those interested: http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=2012968&contentId=7033600 http://en.noclibya.com.ly/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=133&Itemid=0 http://www.wintershall.com/libya.html http://www.eni.com/en_IT/eni-world/libya/eni-business/eni-business.shtml http://www.repsol.com/es_en/corporacion/prensa/notas-de-prensa/ultimas-notas/libia_i.aspx http://www.suncor.com/en/about/3986.aspx The facts hiding in plain site, notice the links lead to the Oil companies themselves, not Alex Jones Yes...investment was increasing. You have a point you wish to make? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Hmmmm........NATO would never get into a dust-up with Syria right? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/8595030/Turkish-and-Syrian-forces-in-tense-cross-border-standoff.html You know there is a difference between Turkey and NATO? When Turkey made a limited invasion of Iraq, was that NATO too? When Canada help depose Aristide, was that NATO? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Guest Derek L Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Yes...investment was increasing. You have a point you wish to make? I've already made it a number of times........All parent nations, of all the major companies associated with the production of Libyan oil are now leading the NATO mission…… Why do you feel we’re (The West) involved in Libya…….and not Syria for that matter? I know you posted some elementary reasons, but they’ve all since been refuted…….Are you still clinging to those? Do you own a Nike TrackSuit and Purple Kool-Aid? Quote
M.Dancer Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Why do you feel we’re (The West) involved in Libya…….and not Syria for that matter? I know you posted some elementary reasons, but they’ve all since been refuted…… Refuted? no....non sequitors are not refutations. speaking of irrelevant tangents How much oil does Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo have? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
GostHacked Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 (edited) You know there is a difference between Turkey and NATO? http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm Turkey is part of NATO. What kind of differences are you talking about? When Turkey made a limited invasion of Iraq, was that NATO too? If you are talking about the cross border raids on the Kurd from Turkey during the US occupation of Iraq? If that was a UN/NATO mission, then they let those raids happen on the Kurds. When Canada help depose Aristide, was that NATO? It could have been. Remember Italy made the first motions for the attack on Libya, then all of a sudden it was a UN/NATO mission. Ousting Aristide could have turned out the same way. There seems to be a pattern here. One member of NATO will cause some shit, then get attacked , crying foul and bringing the rest of the bullies on board to take the country down. Edited June 24, 2011 by GostHacked Quote
M.Dancer Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm Turkey is part of NATO. What kind of differences are you talking about? Obviously a difference more complicated that you are able to grasp. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
GostHacked Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Obviously a difference more complicated that you are able to grasp. In terms of obligations to NATO, there is no difference. Unless you just want to slam more Muslims. Quote
M.Dancer Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 In terms of obligations to NATO, there is no difference. Unless you just want to slam more Muslims. You think? Do you know what the obligations are? I guess not given your statement. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 (edited) Remember Italy made the first motions for the attack on Libya, then all of a sudden it was a UN/NATO mission. I don't remember that. Mind you, neither do you... The tight economic links between the two countries explains why Mr. Berlusconi was slow to take a strong position on Col. Gadhafi’s assault on the rebel forces earlier this year, and why he seemed happy to hand the coalition air raid file to France, Britain and the United States. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/daily-mix/for-closely-tied-italy-libyan-war-cant-end-soon-enough/article1949552/ Those ties may help explain why Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has been slow to condemn Colonel Qaddafi’s bloody crackdown. When the conflict started last month, Mr. Berlusconi said he did not want to “bother” the colonel. It was only after several days that he denounced the violence. By last weekend, he said Italy no longer considered Colonel Qaddafi in control of Libya. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/world/europe/06italy.html And those who most need help are the Libyans themselves. Italy should be at the forefront of international action against Colonel Qaddafi. Yet Italy has hampered a forceful European response (see my column this week) and, though Mr Berlusconi has changed his tune of late, is most resistant to sanctions. Indeed, the rumour in Brussels is that Italy is making its support for EU sanctions against Libya conditional on guarantees of EU “solidarity” on migrants, a claim that President Giorgio Napolitano has denied http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2011/02/europe_and_libya All about oil? Edited June 24, 2011 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
GostHacked Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 I don't remember that. Mind you, neither do you... You also don't recall the British SAS in Libya a couple months before all this shit started going down. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12660163 Diplomats don't carry explosives and guns and fake passports. They were held after going to an agricultural compound when Libyan security guards found they were carrying arms, ammunition, explosives, maps and passports from at least four different nationalities, witnesses told the BBC. Quote
M.Dancer Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 You also don't recall the British SAS in Libya a couple months before all this shit started going down. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12660163 Diplomats don't carry explosives and guns and fake passports. What does that have to do with Italy? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
GostHacked Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 What does that have to do with Italy? Gives them a reason to cry foul. Special forces go in , stir up the shit, then Italy can claim OH NOES, WE MUST HELP THE REBELS, who also have Al-Queda mixed in with these 'rebels'. Create the problem to offer the solution. Quote
M.Dancer Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Gives them a reason to cry foul. Special forces go in , stir up the shit, then Italy can claim OH NOES, WE MUST HELP THE REBELS, who also have Al-Queda mixed in with these 'rebels'. Create the problem to offer the solution. So ...you think that qualifies as a bigger problem for Italy that a loss of oil imports and a deluge of refugees? Excuse me, I may have to laugh a bit... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
GostHacked Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 So ...you think that qualifies as a bigger problem for Italy that a loss of oil imports and a deluge of refugees? Excuse me, I may have to laugh a bit... Libya is not the only source of oil. And if that is the crux of this whole issue, then we can dispense with the 'humanitarian aid' bullshit. Also a humanitarian thing to do would be to take in those refugees. That is not happening either. So again, we can dispense with that bullshit. Quote
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