Fun with Flotillas Pt II

[Bob]

Trying to say that Israel is held to a different standard makes no sense. This situation is pretty unique.

Can you name another GC signatory that has kept military control of an area with millions of people in it for 40 years, and keeping them perpetually stateless, while pumping out the vast majority of the valuable resources from that region, and also facilitating the transfer of its own citizens into the occupied territory, building infrastructure, cities, etc?

The only standards anyone is trying to hold Israel too, are standards set forth by international treaties that they voluntarily signed... Israel set its OWN standards.

And most Israelis THEMSELVES support these standards as well. A clear majority thinks Israel should leave the vast majority of the occupied territories, and allow a palestinian state.

Why is the Israeli military control in those areas in the first place? Here's a tip - the reason the military control is there in the first place is the same reason it is still there today.

Signing the GC doesn't mean Israel has to follow politicized interpretations if its implementation.

[dre]

Why is the Israeli military control in those areas in the first place? Here's a tip - the reason the military control is there in the first place is the same reason it is still there today.

Signing the GC doesn't mean Israel has to follow politicized interpretations if its implementation.

We arent talking about politisized interpretations. We are talking about very clear language prohibiting the transfer of parts of your own population into an occupied territory, or the removal of resources from it.

Why is the Israeli military control in those areas in the first place? Here's a tip - the reason the military control is there in the first place is the same reason it is still there today.

Yup. Same reason theres settlements and pipelines. Israel wants/needs the resources on it, and the more stuff it builds there the less likely it is that they will ever have to give it all back.

You cant sell this as merely a security operation to anyone with half a brain. The occupied territories are crucial pieces of national infrasture... gigantic networks of pipelines, wells, and pumping stations.

The fact is... Israel wants most of that land, and the resources on it, and they have realized that while some people might piss and moan about this sort of naked colonialism, that nobody is really willing to do too much about it.

[DogOnPorch]

Can you name another GC signatory that has kept military control of an area with millions of people in it for 40 years, and keeping them perpetually stateless, while pumping out the vast majority of the valuable resources from that region, and also facilitating the transfer of its own citizens into the occupied territory, building infrastructure, cities, etc?

North Viet-Nam. And that was MANY years after UN 242...which is a Jews only rule.

[DogOnPorch]

We arent talking about politisized interpretations. We are talking about very clear language prohibiting the transfer of parts of your own population into an occupied territory, or the removal of resources from it.

So East Prussia and Pomerania will be free of Polish tyranny soon?

Edited June 27, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[dre]

So East Prussia and Pomerania will be free of Polish tyranny soon?

[DogOnPorch]

Big joke. Why can't Germany have its land back after invading Poland? If you're so keen on helping Hamas, why not Germany? Why not South Viet-Nam?

[Bob]

We arent talking about politisized interpretations. We are talking about very clear language prohibiting the transfer of parts of your own population into an occupied territory, or the removal of resources from it.

There are so man problems with your suppositions, even from a moronic legalistic viewpoint. Just for starters, we can move to Resolution 242's call for Israel's right to - "...secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force", as well as 242's call for an end to the belligerence.

The 1949 armistice lines are indefensible, so we're not going back to them. 242 is an attempt to give us secure and defensible borders. Moreover, all of Jerusalem belongs to Israel, and we cannot cut it up "like a salami" (in the words of Aaron David Miller) in order to reintroduce the ridiculous 1949 armistice lines. If you knew anything about the geography and topography of Jerusalem you'd know this, but you can go to Google Maps and see where how these lines cut Jerusalem into a narrow corridor a few kilometers long (north-south) - completely unacceptable for our capital.

Did the Arabs cease their belligerence? No. Not one iota. The terrorism and the anti-Semitic/anti-Zionist incitement continues through all levels (contrary to the declaration of principles from Oslo) - from the politicians, from the schools and universities, in the newspapers, in the radio, on the TV and on their websites.

What makes you think that your hollow arguments of "international law" (written by and interpreted by the anti-Israel group, especially the last part of the Geneva Conventions which was written SPECIFICALLY to undermine Israel in the aftermath of the War of Independence) will convince Israel to commit suicide and relinquish territory to our enemies who will use the land to continue their campaign of terror against us that hasn't stopped since the late nineteenth century? You think we're going to throw away our security interests because you propagandize our water needs as "plundering resources" from the "Palestinians"?

Lastly, to whom does the land of Judea and Samaria belong to? Jordan relinquished its "legal" claim to the "West Bank" following the capture of the lands after the Six-Day War. Since when can land be legally transferred to a terrorist organization, then the PA run by the PFLP?

Although I care nothing about legalities, even legally your argument is hollow.

Yup. Same reason theres settlements and pipelines. Israel wants/needs the resources on it, and the more stuff it builds there the less likely it is that they will ever have to give it all back.

You cant sell this as merely a security operation to anyone with half a brain. The occupied territories are crucial pieces of national infrasture... gigantic networks of pipelines, wells, and pumping stations.

The fact is... Israel wants most of that land, and the resources on it, and they have realized that while some people might piss and moan about this sort of naked colonialism, that nobody is really willing to do too much about it.

So in other words, Israel didn't capture these lands in defense against an enemy that had already waged two wars against it with the declared intentions of its destruction, and hadn't been terrorizing the early Yishuv for decades before 1948. If the Arabs hadn't committed to

"resistance", we wouldn't be having this discussion. Of course they don't want coexistence, they say so openly and regularly murder Israelis and other infidels around the world, but this is a component about their culture that you handily wash over.

You portray this picture of Israel capturing these lands as a function of some sort of territorial greed, and not as a defense response against an enemy that was and continues to be committed to its destruction, in words and an action. If the "West Bank" hadn't been used as a launching pad for war against Israel in 1948-1949, 1956, and in 1967, we wouldn't be having this conversation. No, it's all about "resources". If the Arabs were peaceful (they are not), we would have a "Palestinian" state right now with water agreements in place. Of course, it takes only one to make war and two to make peace, like any other relationship.

[dre]

So East Prussia and Pomerania will be free of Polish tyranny soon?

I dunno. Do you some research instead of asking rhetorical questions fit for kindergarten class, and coming up with terrible apples and oranges analogies?

Was Poland a GC signatory when those territories changed hands?

Are the people there stateless? No... they are allowed to participate in polish elections... they are citizens.

Is poland looting this territory for resources while preventing/restricting the access of local inhabitants, all the while denying those inhabitants access to its political process? Well... no its not.

[dre]

Big joke. Why can't Germany have its land back after invading Poland? If you're so keen on helping Hamas, why not Germany? Why not South Viet-Nam?

Again those examples are completely different scenarios that predate most of the treaties that cover occupation, and the facts on the ground are totally different. If poland was simply looting Pomerania for resources while not allowing its citizens access the political process then there WOULD be lots of focus on it.

[bud]

No, I have a problem with people who preach to "Zionists" while living comfortably in "settled" Canada (or the United States), even as their military machines "ethnically cleanse" the locals in far off nations in the interest of "human rights".

not that your comparison between the situations has any merit, but who said i'm okay with canada's role in afghanistan or canada's treatment of the aboriginals? i'm not here propagating ethnically cleansing the aboriginals or refusing to follow treaties and agreements.

it would be better to think about your comparisons, blanket statements and assumptions before you decide to type them.

[Bob]

I dunno. Do you some research instead of asking rhetorical questions fit for kindergarten class, and coming up with terrible apples and oranges analogies?

Was Poland a GC signatory when those territories changed hands?

Are the people there stateless? No... they are allowed to participate in polish elections... they are citizens.

Is poland looting this territory for resources while preventing/restricting the access of local inhabitants, all the while denying those inhabitants access to its political process? Well... no its not.

I love the leftists' obsession with technicalities. As if the the right thing is contingent on a signature. Dre, in case you haven't realized it yet, most of us couldn't care less about these politicized legalities that you refer to. We care about doing what's just and what's moral. Documents at the UN are the not the authority on these issues.

You think you can get us to accept national suicide because some bureaucracy says so in the name of "international law"?

[bud]

I love the leftists' obsession with technicalities. As if the the right thing is contingent on a signature.

while you claim all the land belongs to jews because it's in the bible. even though less than 10% of the population of region was jewish before the zionist immigration started a century ago. not only that, many of those who have migrated to the region have no real tie to the region. the only tie is that they follow the same religion.

stop pretending and trying to create an atmosphere where expecting people to follow international law and agreements is some sort of illegitimate way of looking at the situation, while claiming that all of the land belongs to jews because thousands of years ago, it was claimed as the land of jews.

you and anyone who thinks like you are ridiculous.

[dre]

I love the leftists' obsession with technicalities. As if the the right thing is contingent on a signature. Dre, in case you haven't realized it yet, most of us couldn't care less about these politicized legalities that you refer to. We care about doing what's just and what's moral. Documents at the UN are the not the authority on these issues.

You think you can get us to accept national suicide because some bureaucracy says so in the name of "international law"?

I dont agree that a palestinian state would mean national suicide. If anything it would improve the situation.

Dre, in case you haven't realized it yet, most of us couldn't care less about these politicized legalities that you refer to. We care about doing what's just and what's moral.

Theres no consensus in Israel or anywhere else that your position is the "right" or "moral" one. That an unabashed racist and ethnic supremecist, and advocate for ethnic cleansing would even USE those words is laughable.

[Bob]

while you claim all the land belongs to jews because it's in the bible. even though less than 10% of the population of region was jewish before the zionist immigration started a century ago. not only that, many of those who have migrated to the region have no real tie to the region. the only tie is that they follow the same religion.

stop pretending and trying to create an atmosphere where expecting people to follow international law and agreements is some sort of illegitimate way of looking at the situation, while claiming that all of the land belongs to jews because thousands of years ago, it was claimed as the land of jews.

you and anyone who thinks like you are ridiculous.

I've never made the argument that the land belongs to us because of what's stated in the Torah. So let's nip that in the bud (pun intended). Good luck finding any of my posts that even suggest such a thing.

As far as the historic proportion population of the land that was Jewish, how is that relevant? If we went by that standard, we'd never have a Jewish state because we were so fragmented for so long, as as a result of that we were persecuted, kicked out of countries, and massacred. Needless to say, we're not going to tolerate that anymore and place our trust in the good nature of the Goyim to treat us as human beings. We're taking our own destiny into our own hands.

The Jewish people reunited, and that's why the population of Israel is now about 80% Jewish, hopefully we can keep increasing that proportion. 100% Jewish should be the goal. This country was established by us and for us, and will continue to be this way much to your chagrin.

Nice cheapshot against the religiosity of the many Jews who came here. Not "Jewish enough" for you, bud? I guess you'd prefer Israel become a theocracy like your Muslim homeboys across the borders, where we murder rape victims and tear apart the infidels. In Israel people are free to be as religious or irreligious as they want to be.

Populations change, how do you think Middle East became virtually 100% Muslim? How many societies and cultures are now extinct because of the spread of Islam (except for us, of course, we rejected both Christianity and Islam).

Keep getting talking points from your imam in the mosque. Your appeals to "international law" are hollow and resonate with nobody. Of course the voice of the Jewish people, who compose a tiny fraction of a percent (two one hundredths, I think) of the global population, will be drowned out in the "international community" dominated by Muslims and other enemies of Israel. And despite all that, here we are, thriving. It's the best time in modern history to be Jewish, today. That must bother you!

[Bob]

I dont agree that a palestinian state would mean national suicide. If anything it would improve the situation.

Of course that's what you think. You think giving increased autonomy to a population that is committed to the destruction of Israel and has the track record to prove it is a good idea. Let's give independence to a group of people that has waged wars and campaigns of terror against us, never relented in its commitment to violent Jihad, has murdered thousands of Jews and other in Israel and around the world to "make their point".

Withdrawing from Gaza and southern Lebanon also gave us peace.... no wait.... and even the "peace" we got by surrendering the Sinai (which should never have happened) is coming apart at the seams. Thankfully, most of us are too knowledgeable to buy into the lie that is "land for peace".

Theres no consensus in Israel or anywhere else that your position is the "right" or "moral" one. That an unabashed racist and ethnic supremecist, and advocate for ethnic cleansing would even USE those words is laughable.

You can throw all the condescending labels at me you wish. I expect that rhetoric from you. Of course Israel and the Jewish people don't have consensus on these issues, we're a complex and multifaceted people. We've been that since time immemorial. It's both a strength and a liability.

In the Israeli context, however, more and more Israelis, particularly the younger generation, are moving to the right. They're waking up to the lies of the left and seeing through the indoctrination they're subjected to in schools trying to sell them on "land for peace".

Lastly, the moral imperative here is simple - Jewish independence and self-determination. That objective and its perseverance trumps all other considerations. You will not convince me or anyone else to surrender on these basic principles in order to appease your politicized interpretation of "international law". We're not going to do anything that is contrary to our existential interests and well being, no matter how much you try to dress it up. We've got interests and needs, and they're not changing.

I'd rather be an "ethnic supremacist" than pretend that the Arabs are our moral equivalents - which is your standard point of departure on this debate. What's next, Afghanistan's culture and society is the equal of Canada's? Ah, the mental gymnastics of moral relativity, all while claiming that your interpretation of "international law" is on your side!

[bud]

I've never made the argument that the land belongs to us because of what's stated in the Torah. So let's nip that in the bud (pun intended). Good luck finding any of my posts that even suggest such a thing.

so? the reason is what? the jews want the land nothing else matters? even the people who have been living there for centuries?

removing them from their homes and replacing them with jews from other parts of the world is okay because that's how you roll?

As far as the historic proportion population of the land that was Jewish, how is that relevant? If we went by that standard, we'd never have a Jewish state because we were so fragmented for so long, as as a result of that we were persecuted, kicked out of countries, and massacred. Needless to say, we're not going to tolerate that anymore and place our trust in the good nature of the Goyim to treat us as human beings. We're taking our own destiny into our own hands.

by removing people who live there and calling for the ethnic cleansing of them because you are desperately holding onto a racist and failing notion that you can keep the jews from assimilating?

the zionists ended up choosing palestine over argentina for a place to call their own country. the whole process was unfair and unjust to begin with. however, it happened and we have to deal with what's in front of us, which are agreements and specified borders for two separate states. the palestinians, for the most part, have finally accepted that the state of israel is here to stay. however, the extremists such as bibi, his coalition and the mouthpieces such as yourself don't think that's good enough. you'll lie and use any excuse and falsely use terms like 'because of security' or 'self defense' to excuse an ongoing, systematic theft of another people's land.

The Jewish people reunited, and that's why the population of Israel is now about 80% Jewish, hopefully we can keep increasing that proportion.

that's great. i hope israel flourishes. but you seem to have a hard time differentiating between what is israel (with the recognized borders) and what is greater israel (which includes palestinian land).

100% Jewish should be the goal. This country was established by us and for us, and will continue to be this way much to your chagrin.

yes. you're ugly because you keep promoting ethnic cleansing. you and the ugly aryan nations are no different. holding onto some sort of notion that you can keep things the way they are.

Nice cheapshot against the religiosity of the many Jews who came here. Not "Jewish enough" for you, bud?

what are you talking about? jewish enough? russian jews have no tie to the region. an arab has more connection to the israelites than the russian jews do.

I guess you'd prefer Israel become a theocracy like your Muslim homeboys across the borders, where we murder rape victims and tear apart the infidels. In Israel people are free to be as religious or irreligious as they want to be.

from now on, if you make stupid comments about what i'd 'prefer', even though i have never made any comment or reference to what you're spewing, i'll just respond with stfu.

stfu.

Populations change, how do you think Middle East became virtually 100% Muslim? How many societies and cultures are now extinct because of the spread of Islam (except for us, of course, we rejected both Christianity and Islam).

you're typing irresponsibly and just spewing bs. the mid-east is not 100% muslim. you tell me how many societies and cultures became extinct because of spread of islam.

then tell us about the crusades.

perhaps you should tell me if the christians have a claim to europe and have a right to kick all the muslims, jews and other non-christians out of europe? because that is what your stupid argument boils down to even though the population of palestine was less than 10% jews (who happened to live peacefully with their arab neighbours.)

Keep getting talking points from your imam in the mosque. Your appeals to "international law" are hollow and resonate with nobody. Of course the voice of the Jewish people, who compose a tiny fraction of a percent (two one hundredths, I think) of the global population, will be drowned out in the "international community" dominated by Muslims and other enemies of Israel. And despite all that, here we are, thriving. It's the best time in modern history to be Jewish, today. That must bother you!

on queue, the racist pig ends his justification for ethnic cleansing, war crimes and an all around being an ugly person by using the victim card.

here is my best impression of you and the rest of the jewish extremists:

omg omg, the muslims are out to get us and that's why we're taking their land and will not allow a palestinian state. omg. never forget. except maybe that it wasn't okay for the nazis to try to ethnically cleanse, but it's okay for us. we're different. we're special. we're above criticism. we're above the normal standard.

tell me if you like it.

[DogOnPorch]

I dunno. Do you some research instead of asking rhetorical questions fit for kindergarten class, and coming up with terrible apples and oranges analogies?

Was Poland a GC signatory when those territories changed hands?

Are the people there stateless? No... they are allowed to participate in polish elections... they are citizens.

Is poland looting this territory for resources while preventing/restricting the access of local inhabitants, all the while denying those inhabitants access to its political process? Well... no its not.

See...it only matters if Jews are involved. Who cares if the Palestinian Cause was a branch of the 3rd Reich? Not you. The people of South Viet-Nam thank you for your concern.

[dre]

See...it only matters if Jews are involved. Who cares if the Palestinian Cause was a branch of the 3rd Reich? Not you. The people of South Viet-Nam thank you for your concern.

More meaningless tripe. It makes no difference if Jews are involved or not. It wouldnt matter if Israel was a nation or muslims, christians, or yoga instructors for that matter. Any country thats engages in those kind of activities would be the focus of a fair ammount of critisism.

You dont think the US would have been critisized if it put Iraq under permanent military administration, moved large number of civilians in, and pumped out oil and gas as fast as they could?

The world doesnt have much stomach for nations that aquire resources or territory in this fassion.

Edited June 28, 2011 by dre

[Moonlight Graham]

I like this quote from the CBC article in OP:

Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird has called the convoy "provocative."

[jbg]

Yup. Same reason theres settlements and pipelines. Israel wants/needs the resources on it, and the more stuff it builds there the less likely it is that they will ever have to give it all back.

You cant sell this as merely a security operation to anyone with half a brain. The occupied territories are crucial pieces of national infrasture... gigantic networks of pipelines, wells, and pumping stations.

The fact is... Israel wants most of that land, and the resources on it, and they have realized that while some people might piss and moan about this sort of naked colonialism, that nobody is really willing to do too much about it.

And the fact also is that the Arabs never recognized the 1949 Armistice Lines, now known as 1967 borders. Why should the Arab side get to keep taking shots at Israel and not vice versa. Either the war ended in 1949 or it didn't.

We arent talking about politisized interpretations. We are talking about very clear language prohibiting the transfer of parts of your own population into an occupied territory, or the removal of resources from it.

North Viet-Nam. And that was MANY years after UN 242...which is a Jews only rule.

So East Prussia and Pomerania will be free of Polish tyranny soon?

You left out Sudan's occupation of South Sudan, Nigeria's occupation of Biafra, and the Soviet occupation of the Kurile Islands. And what about Tibet? Clearly there are "Jews only rules" and other rules.

[Bob]

And jbg, nevermind the fact that these lands were captured by Israel in a defensive war against an enemy that has launched two wars against it in the two decades prior, as well as continually used the lands as launching areas for hostilities. Before the capture of Judea and Samaria during the Six-Day War, the "border" (1949 armistice lines) were no-man's lands with many incidents of violence. We're never going back to those borders again, and they're irrelevant in the context of a possible future final-status agreement. As long as the Arabs keep crying over spilled milk and ask for a do-over, the status quo will continue. People like dre love to completely wash over these facts and portray the capture of these lands as if Israel just did it for the hell of it.

As far as I'm concerned, the "Palestinians" forfeited their hollow claims to control of the land when they rejected the 1947 Partition Plan (as Arabs, before the modern invention of "Palestinians"). And before that, there were doing their "Arab revolts" (otherwise known as pogroms) decades earlier. Subsequently, they launched another war in 1956, and again in 1967 after which they issued the famous "three nos" from Khartoum. And then we had the Yom Kippur War, the first Lebanon War, the first and second intifadas, terrorism from Gaza and southern Lebanon, and ongoing terrorism and political warfare. Nothing's changed, except for us having fortified our positions a little more. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, jbg, but listening to these schmucks in here you'd think these Arabs were peace-loving folks like the Native Americans in Dancing With Wolves.

To hell with the Arabs and their claims to land. If they can't conduct themselves in peace, then they have no right to any land at our expense. Call me a racist all you want, but they have shown no evidence that they can be trusted with increased autonomy. The disappointing truth is that the opposite is true - they continually reinforce what we already know about them.]

Don't believe me? Go read their media and use Google Translate. For starters, read the Al-Jazeera Arabic version. Go to the Arab discussion forums online (there are plenty) and use Google Translate if it's in Arabic. Watch Memri or Palestine Media Watch videos. Go into chat rooms with Yahoo! of Paltalk and listen to the Arabs in their own words. And this is just words. Forget about the terrorism and mass murder.

But of course these Arabs are to be seen as innocent little puppies suppressed by the evil Zionist entity....

[Bob]

so? the reason is what? the jews want the land nothing else matters? even the people who have been living there for centuries?

removing them from their homes and replacing them with jews from other parts of the world is okay because that's how you roll?

It's our land because we need it to be secure. The Arabs have shown us many time what they do with this land when they control it - they use it as a base of terrorism against us. We're not going to accept that, anymore. A people have no legitimacy to their nationalistic claims when those claims are predicated on the destruction of another nation and state. Not only did they forfeit their claims to this land when they used it to wage wars and campaigns of terrorism against us, but they renew that forfeiture every day with their ongoing terrorism and political warfare.

by removing people who live there and calling for the ethnic cleansing of them because you are desperately holding onto a racist and failing notion that you can keep the jews from assimilating?

Ah, now you're being more honest with us. Jewish culture is now inherently racist.... because we retain our identity and refuse to be made extinct by Arab/Muslim imperialism. Why don't we just assimilate and accept the benevolent domination of the Arabs/Muslims? No thanks. This was a fantastic statement, bud, I wish you were more honest like this more of the time. We all know how you really feel, it's about time you stopped masquerading as some sort of "human rights" fanboy.

the zionists ended up choosing palestine over argentina for a place to call their own country. the whole process was unfair and unjust to begin with. however, it happened and we have to deal with what's in front of us, which are agreements and specified borders for two separate states. the palestinians, for the most part, have finally accepted that the state of israel is here to stay. however, the extremists such as bibi, his coalition and the mouthpieces such as yourself don't think that's good enough. you'll lie and use any excuse and falsely use terms like 'because of security' or 'self defense' to excuse an ongoing, systematic theft of another people's land.

Exactly, Israel is a mistake and was born in sin - this is your view. Now we must "deal with what's in front of us", which really means you want to undo this historical mistake that is the reestablishment of Israel and the Jewish people's seizing of our own independence and self-determination in our own land. You could've said this many months ago, we all know this is how you feel - but I guess you couldn't hide your own sentiment forever.

What you see as an unjust and immoral historical event I see as a beautiful story of the liberation of the Jewish people from oppression, and the development of a wasteland into a strong economy with a beautiful culture and society. Modern Israel is an inspiring story of national rebirth, and a resounding defeat against Arab/Muslim colonialism. We're not gonna take any more of your shit, and it pisses you off that the Jewish people are no longer a weak and fragmented people to be pushed around. Israel is this beautiful beacon of modernity and civilization among a sea of savagery.

You view Israel and our history with contempt (because you're either a) an Arab and/or a Muslim, and/or c) some empty person with an inexplicable vendetta against Israel in order to give your life some meaning), as mistake that needs to be undone. Too bad you're dreams will never come true, regardless of how much fake passion you put into your posts.

what are you talking about? jewish enough? russian jews have no tie to the region. an arab has more connection to the israelites than the russian jews do.

As I've already said, a Jewish person who's never set foot in this land has more connection and claim to this land than a tenth-generation "Palestinian". This attempt of yours to disconnect segments of Jewry as having "no tie" to Israel just shows how little you understand about Jewish unity and Zionism. The Russian Jews were the biggest portion of the early Jewish Yishuv that came here in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries to rebuild Israel. They were very much connected to this land and remain so. And they fight for this land in our army.

you're typing irresponsibly and just spewing bs. the mid-east is not 100% muslim. you tell me how many societies and cultures became extinct because of spread of islam.

then tell us about the crusades.

The Middle East is virtually exclusively Muslim, and the spread of Arabism and Islam wiped out many cultures and societies. Why are you asking me about the Crusades? What relevance does that have to do with what I just said?

perhaps you should tell me if the christians have a claim to europe and have a right to kick all the muslims, jews and other non-christians out of europe? because that is what your stupid argument boils down to even though the population of palestine was less than 10% jews (who happened to live peacefully with their arab neighbours.)

I don't care about Europe, let them do or not do whatever they want. You keep regurgitating this 10% figure, what relevance does that have? That is before the return of Jewish people. Israel was reestablished to once again become the Jewish homeland. It's not 10% anymore, is it? We need to keep working toward getting that number to 100%.

This bullshit about "living peacefully" is such a joke. Jews lived under subjugation among the Muslims. You know who the most right-wing Jews are, typically? The Jews that came from the Arab lands. Take a guess why that is. Arabs can't even live in peace with themselves, for heaven's sake. This fantasy of all being swell between Jews and Arabs until Zionism is typical anti-Semitic bullshit - we're not going back to that subjugation, no matter how much you want us to.

[bush_cheney2004]

not that your comparison between the situations has any merit, but who said i'm okay with canada's role in afghanistan or canada's treatment of the aboriginals? i'm not here propagating ethnically cleansing the aboriginals or refusing to follow treaties and agreements.

You don't have to....you live it every day, quite satisfied with the state of settled affairs and subjugation of "aboriginals" while wagging your finger at a nation facing actual threats to its very existence. But don't worry, we recognize Canada's "right to exist" too.

it would be better to think about your comparisons, blanket statements and assumptions before you decide to type them.

Nonsense....I revel in the opportunity to demonstrate your obvious myopia and bias against Israel. Good luck with today's strike missions against Libyans too....I'm sure it's in compliance the Geneva Conventions! LOL!

[Moonlight Graham]

A people have no legitimacy to their nationalistic claims when those claims are predicated on the destruction of another nation and state. Not only did they forfeit their claims to this land when they used it to wage wars and campaigns of terrorism against us, but they renew that forfeiture every day with their ongoing terrorism and political warfare.

Say what?

Anybody else see the irony in this?

[Bob]

Say what?

Anybody else see the irony in this?

Spell it out for us, share your deep knowledge of history and make a point.