Fun with Flotillas Pt II

[DogOnPorch]

This old Jewish guy I talked to insisted that Palistine does not really even exist in name...He said that it is not an Arabic or Jewish name - that it is a Roman invention - after a town in Italy called Palistinia....is this true?

It's a Roman slur of Philistine given to the Province of Iudaea after the Jewish Roman Wars. The Philistines were, of course, the Biblical enemy of the Israelites...but they met their end in 332 BC when both Tyre and Gaza refused to surrender peacefully to Alexander the Great. Big Al had the men executed and the women/children sold into slavery in Macedonia.

[Bob]

This old Jewish guy I talked to insisted that Palistine does not really even exist in name...He said that it is not an Arabic or Jewish name - that it is a Roman invention - after a town in Italy called Palistinia....is this true?

He's somewhat accurate. In the Torah the Torah there is a mention of a nation known as the Plishtim, who lives in the land known as modern-day Gaza (in the Torah and modern Hebrew it is referred to as Aza). Anyways, after the Roman destruction of the Jewish temple in the late 1st century BCE, and subsequent exile of the Jewish people from our lands, the Romans "renamed" our land to Falastina.

More recently, "Palestine" was a province of the Ottoman Empire, although I think with different borders. Then we had the British Mandate for Palestine which included all of present-day Israel, the territories, and present-day Jordan.

It's such a politicized and empty term, and the Arabs today taking on the name "Palestinians" is just a transparent attempt by them the characterize themselves as the rightful "owners" of a land lost. They're portraying themselves as some sort of deep-rooted people to this land who have been there since antiquity. Sadly, the term is now commonly used, and the automatic associations made by ignorant minds between their modern national namesake and one of the historical names of this land is the Arab objective.

The real Palestinians, the Plishtim, are long gone. It's funny how the Arabs are trying to take on a name from a long extinct society. It's transparent political gaming.

Anyways, that's what I remember about history without having to run to Google.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Bob

[Bob]

It's a Roman slur of Philistine given to the Province of Iudaea after the Jewish Roman Wars. The Philistines were, of course, the Biblical enemy of the Israelites...but they met their end in 332 BC when both Tyre and Gaza refused to surrender peacefully to Alexander the Great. Big Al had the men executed and the women/children sold into slavery in Macedonia.

Yes I remember someone telling me that the renaming of the Jewish kingdom to "Falastina" was at least in part an insult to the Jewish people. Much the same today!

You know, I just went to Wikipedia and saw this "Palestine" article, and the first thing I noticed was how they describe the whole land of Israel, "from the river to sea", as "Palestine". It's so ridiculous. You can always see the political warfare on Wikipedia.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes I remember someone telling me that the renaming of the Jewish kingdom to "Falastina" was at least in part an insult to the Jewish people. Much the same today!

You know, I just went to Wikipedia and saw this "Palestine" article, and the first thing I noticed was how they describe the whole land of Israel, "from the river to sea", as "Palestine". It's so ridiculous. You can always see the political warfare on Wikipedia.

Wikipedia is fantastic for things not involving politics.

To think, though...all this would probably have been avoided had Jewish leaders played ball with the Romans re: putting up busts of Caesar in their temples.

Edited June 24, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Bob]

Wikipedia is fantastic for things not involving politics.

To think, though...all this would probably have been avoided had Jewish leaders played ball with the Romans re: putting up busts of Caesar in their temples.

You're right, I never thought about it like that. It was our fault!

[Oleg Bach]

He's somewhat accurate. In the Torah the Torah there is a mention of a nation known as the Plishtim, who lives in the land known as modern-day Gaza (in the Torah and modern Hebrew it is referred to as Aza). Anyways, after the Roman destruction of the Jewish temple in the late 1st century BCE, and subsequent exile of the Jewish people from our lands, the Romans "renamed" our land to Falastina.

More recently, "Palestine" was a province of the Ottoman Empire, although I think with different borders. Then we had the British Mandate for Palestine which included all of present-day Israel, the territories, and present-day Jordan.

It's such a politicized and empty term, and the Arabs today taking on the name "Palestinians" is just a transparent attempt by them the characterize themselves as the rightful "owners" of a land lost. They're portraying themselves as some sort of deep-rooted people to this land who have been there since antiquity. Sadly, the term is now commonly used, and the automatic associations made by ignorant minds between their modern national namesake and one of the historical names of this land is the Arab objective.

The real Palestinians, the Plishtim, are long gone. It's funny how the Arabs are trying to take on a name from a long extinct society. It's transparent political gaming.

Anyways, that's what I remember about history without having to run to Google.

The real Palestinians, the Plishtims are long gone? I would assme that the real Judeans are also long gone also...I ofter wonder when Jesus the Christ stated - and to para phrase - as he spoke to his detractors..."Those who call themselves Jews (Judeans) are not Judeans but of the synagog (gathering) of Satan...(the liar)....Is it possible that when the Davidic royal family returned from Babylon after being dispersed about 70 years earlier that other semitic tribes had taken over the royal lands and this clash with the rightful king of Judea was not about religion but about a simple and intense real estate dispute?

Potius Pilate to put a sign over the head of the executed Jesus that stated "King of the Judeans" - maybe this problem in Israel is still an unresolved real estate dispute?

[DogOnPorch]

You're right, I never thought about it like that. It was our fault!

...would have saved a lot of grief. Islam might not be the force it is today had the Jews remained strong in the Levant.

[Oleg Bach]

...would have saved a lot of grief. Islam might not be the force it is today had the Jews remained strong in the Levant.

Kind of like the hippies that led the youth into a utopian false dream - and while they were having fun the nasty and ambtious people took over...hence the hippies made things worse by being non-responsive to sinister forces?

[DogOnPorch]

Kind of like the hippies that led the youth into a utopian false dream - and while they were having fun the nasty and ambtious people took over...hence the hippies made things worse by being non-responsive to sinister forces?

Well, perhaps the invading Muslim hordes would have found a stumbling block with a powerful Jewish kingdom in the way. The Byzantines were in decline and were certainly no match vs Islam's dynamic style of warfare.

[Bob]

...would have saved a lot of grief. Islam might not be the force it is today had the Jews remained strong in the Levant.

We're making up for lost time now, I suppose, by staying strong and rejecting Arab/Muslim imperialism-colonialism.

[Oleg Bach]

Well, perhaps the invading Muslim hordes would have found a stumbling block with a powerful Jewish kingdom in the way. The Byzantines were in decline and were certainly no match vs Islam's dynamic style of warfare.

Like I said before Islam has always been about organization. It's more of a corporation than a true religion...now getting back to BOB - He said that the original Palistinians were "long gone" _ I retorted that the original Judeans (Jews) must also be long gone - This whole thing about Palistine and present day Israel is about who was there first to stake the claim - One claims that they are first in line and have title - their counter parts state the same _ I suspect that there are more original decendants of the ancients in Palistine than there are original decendants in Israel.

This must really bug BOB...seeing that the ancient Abahrew like to wonder far and wide...they wandered away for a thousand years then came home? SO it really does get down to who was there first - If you could find a pure breed ancient Judean - and run some comparison genetic testing against the Israeli claiments...You would probably find that the real Jews _ or Judeans are all long gone....It appears that both factions had better start a fresh game and stop going on like children - about who is first in line for the ice cream cone!

[Bob]

Actually, Jewish culture isn't extinct by any means. We have our language, we have our religion, we have our traditions, we have our humour, and we have our history. The culture/society of the Plishtim, on the other hand, is long gone. That isn't stopping Arab imposters as claiming the namesake of the "Palestinians" in order to pretend to be something they aren't.

You're just trying to go into some stupid racist argument, talking about "pure blood", and other such banality. As if somehow contemporary Jews aren't "pure". It's ridiculous and unworthy of serious response.

You obviously didn't understand my original post.

[DogOnPorch]

We're making up for lost time now, I suppose, by staying strong and rejecting Arab/Muslim imperialism-colonialism.

That's all that can be done. The IDF is not an offensive army. That is, it's an army designed to fight defensive wars on short interior lines of communications. So attacking the enemy on its home turf isn't a real option for Israel. As soon as they get strung-out in columns, that's when the bad sh!t happens.

[DogOnPorch]

He said that the original Palistinians were "long gone" _ I retorted that the original Judeans (Jews) must also be long gone.

Actually, no. We know what happened to both groups thanks to some excellent ancient historians. The Philistines defied Alexander and paid the price in a different way than the Israelites when they defied Rome.

[Oleg Bach]

Actually, Jewish culture isn't extinct by any means. We have our language, we have our religion, we have our traditions, we have our humour, and we have our history. The culture/society of the Plishtim, on the other hand, is long gone. That isn't stopping Arab imposters as claiming the namesake of the "Palestinians" in order to pretend to be something they aren't.

You're just trying to go into some stupid racist argument, talking about "pure blood", and other such banality. As if somehow contemporary Jews aren't "pure". It's ridiculous and unworthy of serious response.

You obviously didn't understand my original post.

So purity of race is important to you? Don't try to suck me down some tunnel and make me look like some harsh and hateful anti-semite...It's not going to work....and how do you know for certain that all of the decendents of the Plishtim are "long gone" - You don't know that for certain. It is impossbile to know such a thing. People have children and their children have children - no race or religion is totally "long gone" _ You act as if Palistine is a vacant lot. It does not matter who is who - there are people there and they must be dealt with - whether you like them or not.... The term grace or the title "YOUR GRACE" signified nobility - noble meant to be generous....and the term GRACE means "The undeserved mercy of God" - God does not distinguish between the good or the bad - we are the same to him...It is mankind that creates villians..

Maybe the ancient concepts of being god like and showing grace need to come back?

[Bob]

I'll say it one last time - the culture/society of the original Plishtim is extinct. Did the Plihtim have children? Of course. Are some people around in this world today at least in part descended from them? Almost certainly. Does it matter? No. It's not an issue of blood, it's an issue of culture. Many cultures and societies have been wiped out around the world throughout history, but the Jews are not one of them.

[Oleg Bach]

I'll say it one last time - the culture/society of the original Plishtim is extinct. Did the Plihtim have children? Of course. Are some people around in this world today at least in part descended from them? Almost certainly. Does it matter? No. It's not an issue of blood, it's an issue of culture. Many cultures and societies have been wiped out around the world throughout history, but the Jews are not one of them.

Lucky you...as I sat 40 years ago in an apple orchard north of Toronto...I viewed the last of my culture...older men and woman eating and drinking - and playing music..They were what was left of old Russian Orthodox Christians....My children are now offically without their culture and they don't notice the loss of what they never knew.

My father and mother both were marked with bullet scars..My grand father was excuted by communists.....in two generations though war - famine and revolution my family literally disappeared - we are not sure if we are decended form ancient Muslims - Christians of Jews....but probably from all of them.....and by the way - the soviets took 2000 acres of family land - I want it back now! lol

[Oleg Bach]

I'm waiting Bob. You spend to much time thinking your way out of all things that do not fit into your cultural and personal agenda. A word of advice - speak instinctively...once thought become instituionalized and acedemic - all developmental process comes to a hault - processing is highly political...we have a moral problem here ....as for the peace "process" - You don't go though a long and forever process - you either want it instantly or not. As for the idiots manning the flotilla....They are using force - and anything worth fighting for is NOT worth having. These people are eccentric...and if they were good people they would have quickly submitted to the first encounter with Israeli forces...instead of getting out the iron bars and wacking men dangling from ropes. I don't agree with force under the guise of pacifism.

[Oleg Bach]

Canadians depart to board the Sea Hitler in efforts to get themselves shot by the IDF just in time for the evening news. Meanwhile, up the road, events in Syria go unnoticed by these closet anti-Semites.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/06/20/world-canadians-gaza-aid-convoy.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/06/13/f-syria-crisis.html

...as usual, not enough Juice involved up in Syria...so who the truck cares?

Killing Coptic Christians in Egypt really pisses me off.

[Oleg Bach]

She's so fuggly that I doubt she knows how women fare in Canada let alone elsewhere. Just a typical 'Israel = Evil' leftard.

Why does this lady not get a make over...? Presention is everything! You would hope that she would at least stop looking like some aging old radical from 1968. What's with this leftist liberalism that is so far left that they become extreme rightest fanatics and don't even know it. I am sure if they had all of Hitlers army behind them they would launch an attack on Israel and save those poor Palistinians....Like I say of some Israelis - and I will mention it to the flotilla hag...YOU become what you hate if you hate long enough. A damned zealot and fanatic.

[Oleg Bach]

Dear Bob,

I had a quick glance at our blog ---- apparently you are some sort of extremist..It does not look very good on you...You seem like a good and reasonable man - Maybe you can moderate and centre your attitude and it might assist you in more clear and accurate thinking ...You will accomplish nothing other than feeding the hate industry - but then again...seems that most of the world prospers on conflict...actually just a select few - Like a bureacrat - if all was well - you would be out of a job...so peace and civility in the world might not be an option for you - sorry to insult you if I did - but I do wish you the best...this ZIONISM stuff...jeeezzzz I sure wish the anglo mafia would except me - but I am of the wrong breed...I feel sorry for myself.

[Oleg Bach]

Dear Bob,

I had a quick glance at our blog ---- apparently you are some sort of extremist..It does not look very good on you...You seem like a good and reasonable man - Maybe you can moderate and centre your attitude and it might assist you in more clear and accurate thinking ...You will accomplish nothing other than feeding the hate industry - but then again...seems that most of the world prospers on conflict...actually just a select few - Like a bureacrat - if all was well - you would be out of a job...so peace and civility in the world might not be an option for you - sorry to insult you if I did - but I do wish you the best...this ZIONISM stuff...jeeezzzz I sure wish the anglo mafia would except me - but I am of the wrong breed...I feel sorry for myself.

Correction YOUR blog................whoooooooooo...last thing I want to do is join a club.

[Oleg Bach]

One last thing and I doubt that the flotilla will continue much further...go easy on these lunitics....communicate with them and give fair warning - and if the zealots persist - put a hole in the stern of the ship...and then send life boats - This drama of boarding with commandoes and choppers is old hat..get pragmatic and simply disable the boat...but it is such a waste to see all that supplies go to the bottom.. Good luck Bob...nice to have met you - and remember one thing - America is soon to dump you...and to be purely dependant on a small stock pile of nuclear arms is no way to live --- Obama is not really from that Jewish sect called Christianity - He is more of the corporate islamic leaning...cheers

[Remiel]

They can reject my supposition that a distinct identity is a necessary prerequisite for being entitled to independence, as they've tried to argue by attacking my question rather than answering it, but none of them can simply concede the point that the "Palestinians" are a recently manufactured national identity - nothing more than a political tool to create the illusion of a distinct nation in limbo. Fine, my question about what distinguishes the "Palestinians" from other Arabs is irrelevant, so why not answer it? Why not concede the point? All they need to do is admit that I'm right about the Palestinians being indistinguishable from other Arabs, while still holding onto some other justification for their nationalistic ambitions (i.e they're currently stateless, so they deserve to form a state upon the lands they currently reside on, as I think dre argued).

What a strange world you live in where identities have no beginning or ending.

I could also claim that Americans are not a legitimate nation because their identity was "created" in 1776. And if I were to say this is certain parts of the United States and was subsequently shot, I would say they should not have shot me, but I think I would also admit it was wrong of me to have disparaged them so in the first place.

You can call "Palestinian" manufactured if you want, but it does not change the fact that there is a definite description of people who are Palestinian, i.e. Arabs with roots in Israel, and that the people who fit that definite description have had an historical experience quite different than their peers.

All your bluster about Palestinians being the same people as other Arabs is pointless; if I have a collection of seven Arabs all named Mohammed, they need not be alike at all. Mohammed from Morocco, Mohammed from Algeria, Mohammed from Tunisia, Mohammed from Libya, Mohammed from Egypt, Mohammed from Palestine, and Mohammed from Lebanon are distinct people, not faceless automatons. Moroccans live on the ocean, Algerians and Lebanese have different degrees of French influence, Tunisian and Egyptian identities are shaped by their ancient forebears in those countries, and Palestinians have had a close if adversarial relationship with Israel.

The question is not when people started calling themselves Palestinians, but for how long they will be calling themselves that.

[Bob]

What a strange world you live in where identities have no beginning or ending.

I could also claim that Americans are not a legitimate nation because their identity was "created" in 1776. And if I were to say this is certain parts of the United States and was subsequently shot, I would say they should not have shot me, but I think I would also admit it was wrong of me to have disparaged them so in the first place.

You can call "Palestinian" manufactured if you want, but it does not change the fact that there is a definite description of people who are Palestinian, i.e. Arabs with roots in Israel, and that the people who fit that definite description have had an historical experience quite different than their peers.

All your bluster about Palestinians being the same people as other Arabs is pointless; if I have a collection of seven Arabs all named Mohammed, they need not be alike at all. Mohammed from Morocco, Mohammed from Algeria, Mohammed from Tunisia, Mohammed from Libya, Mohammed from Egypt, Mohammed from Palestine, and Mohammed from Lebanon are distinct people, not faceless automatons. Moroccans live on the ocean, Algerians and Lebanese have different degrees of French influence, Tunisian and Egyptian identities are shaped by their ancient forebears in those countries, and Palestinians have had a close if adversarial relationship with Israel.

The question is not when people started calling themselves Palestinians, but for how long they will be calling themselves that.

None of the distinctions Palestinians can claim that distinguish themselves from other Arabs are unimportant. Their experiences with Israel? Many of them having varying levels of Hebrew understanding? These are not substantial differences. There are no meaningful distinctions between the "Palestinians" and most other Arabs, is what I'm saying. You're grasping at straws, here, trying to create some unique Arab identity. It doesn't exist, so stop trying. I could drop a Palestinian in Jordan, Syria, or Lebanon and nobody would be able to identify him or her as different.

Now, you can go back to your original assertion, that distinctions are unimportant towards justifying their claims to independence and sovereignty. I think that is a weak position, as I see no legitimacy to nationalistic claims from a group of people that is indistinguishable from neighbouring Arab countries at the expense of the only Jewish state. Moreover, their commitment terrorism and war forfeits their claims to sovereignty on territory that puts us at risk. They are unworthy of independence on our doorstep considering their track record. Why in the world would we ever grant independence to a people on our doorstep that has never ceased its campaign of war, terror, and incitement against us?

Edited June 25, 2011 by Bob