Fun with Flotillas Pt II

[bud]

STRANGE....So very strange. Sometimes I feel like I am from another world and just visiting - it astounds me how back ward the human race is...it's as if they were invented yesterday and need time to figure things out...but people have been around for a million years and seemingly have learned nothing. It is one of my lifes greatest disappointments - to finally understand the severe limitations of humanity.

disrespect and selfishness towards our fellow humans and our planet is not sustainable. our current direction will end either by us acknowledging in time that the bad habits need to stop or it will end by a catastrophic chain of events.

Edited July 2, 2011 by bud

[Bob]

IOW, the whole Mufti/anti-semitism connection is moot point because the Arabs would have fought non-Jews just the same if they were moving in on that *LAND*.

Thanks for the honest answer, for once, Bob.

It's not a moot point because anti-Semitism is so prevalent in Arab/Muslim societies, the ongoing perpetuation and evolution of this prejudice perpetuates the conflict.

Most importantly, you're overlooking the weakness of your argument that I've already pointed out. Without explicitly stating it, you're suggesting that anti-Semitism among the Arab/Muslim world isn't relevant since the Arabs/Muslims would've developed a similar institutionalized hatred towards another group (i.e. Chinese) had Israel been established by that other group. As we should all feel better all of sudden in light of that fact.

[Bob]

Israel hasn't refused to acknowledge Islamic states as such.

With all due respect, American Woman, I think you're missing the point here. Dre is clearly engaging in a sickening attempt to characterize Israeli/Jewish culture and society as being just as guilty of prejudice and hatred as Arab/Muslim culture and society. He knows better, and if he doesn't - he should.

The types of messages and narratives that are common in Arab/Muslim society are so despicable as to have no parallel in Israeli/Jewish culture. Your focus on the Arab/Muslim refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state is somewhat irrelevant to this issue. What needs to rejected on its face is any assertion by people like dre that there is some sort of moral equivalence between our Israeli/Jewish society and Arab/Muslim society with respect to incitement to hatred.

This is probably the hundredth time I've posted such a message in these forums, but this point is so crucial that it is worthy of repetition. The messages and dishonest narratives of history that are prevalent at all levels of Arab/Muslim society (TV news, TV dramas, movies, plays, newspapers, radio, textbooks, magazines, websites, statements from political and/or religious leaders, NGO statements, summer camps, etc) have no parallels in Israeli/Jewish society.

Off the top of my head here are some examples of reprehensible conduct that is commonplace among them.

- Glorification of suicide bombers and other terrorists: Massive banners and posters in their honour throughout their communities, naming things in their honour such as streets, public service buildings (like hospitals) and services (like scholarship funds). This also includes praise from all levels of social leaders, such as academics, politicians, and religious figureheads. This also includes dressing up children (including infants) in suicide-bomber and terrorists costumers for festivals and other events.

- Demonization/denigration of Jews and incitement to hatred: Regular anti-Semitic cartoons that mirror the messages of Nazi Germany depicting the Jew as greedy, evil, and ugly. Television shows, movies, plays, animation and other children's shows, and other media that construct narratives of evil Jews, whether it be the Israeli soldier raping and/or murdering the young Palestinian girl in front of her family (as was seen in the recent anti-Semitic Turkish drama series), or others caricatures of the evil and soulless Jew.

- Blatantly dishonest historical revisionism: denial of the Holocaust (such as Hamas' removal of all Holocaust education in Gazan schools), the destruction of historical artifacts in Jerusalem's Old City obtained through illegal archaeological operations, and regular dissemination of information denying the Jewish connection to this land (such as Palestinian ministers of information and culture denying historic Jewish presence in this land through "academic" reports).

Look, I can go on and on, but as I've already said, people are welcome to view MEMRI and Palestine Media Watch videos on YouTube to see for themselves. The vicious hatred against Jews (and often Americans and other Westerners) is endemic to Arab/Muslim socieities. It is not on the fringe like it in our societies (i.e. the Westboro Baptist Church), it is the mainstream. See for yourself and ask yourself, "Could I ever expect to see these types of messages tolerated in my society?"

Here are random examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtt8V25lGmc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64JIgs5C6k

There are literally hundreds of videos out there that are translated, and of course the Arabs/Muslims never cease supplying this hatred for us to see. And of course, dre and the others would lead you to believe that "both sides" are equally complicit in propagation of this hatred, and this type of incitement. As if our two societies are moral equivalents. I guess even in WWII, there were "two sides" to that conflict.

[Bob]

I did answer you. Because they're Muslim and they are in a in a conflict with Jewish people *over the same piece of land* (which the Jewish side claims is Jewish land).

Look, I don't know how many times we should go on repeating ourselves - just come out and say whatever it is you're trying to say. It's obvious you think you have a point.

It's not just us claiming it's Jewish land, it's us taking our destiny into our own hands and reestablishing our state. This is an expression of our independence and self-determination. Those are non-negotiable issues. The Muslims, on the other hand, have plenty of states occupying plenty of land that pretty much belongs to them. Of course none of these countries are democratic or comply with basic standards of freedom and liberty, but hey, "Palestine" belongs to them. For us this is existential, for them it's an issue of machismo.

[Bob]

If you actually think that incitement to hate isn't the primary driver of this conflict, spend some time browsing videos from these channels on YouTube.

Palestine Media Watch

MEMRI

Here's just another video, where Hillary Clinton acknowledges how the indoctrination of children towards sick values is a form of child abuse. Can you imagine seeing this type of vileness in your society directed towards children? Of course not, but it's the norm on the other side.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Bob

[bud]

With all due respect, American Woman, I think you're missing the point here. Dre is clearly engaging in a sickening attempt to characterize Israeli/Jewish culture and society as being just as guilty of prejudice and hatred as Arab/Muslim culture and society. He knows better, and if he doesn't - he should.

The types of messages and narratives that are common in Arab/Muslim society are so despicable as to have no parallel in Israeli/Jewish culture. Your focus on the Arab/Muslim refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state is somewhat irrelevant to this issue. What needs to rejected on its face is any assertion by people like dre that there is some sort of moral equivalence between our Israeli/Jewish society and Arab/Muslim society with respect to incitement to hatred.

This is probably the hundredth time I've posted such a message in these forums, but this point is so crucial that it is worthy of repetition. The messages and dishonest narratives of history that are prevalent at all levels of Arab/Muslim society (TV news, TV dramas, movies, plays, newspapers, radio, textbooks, magazines, websites, statements from political and/or religious leaders, NGO statements, summer camps, etc) have no parallels in Israeli/Jewish society.

Off the top of my head here are some examples of reprehensible conduct that is commonplace among them.

- Glorification of suicide bombers and other terrorists: Massive banners and posters in their honour throughout their communities, naming things in their honour such as streets, public service buildings (like hospitals) and services (like scholarship funds). This also includes praise from all levels of social leaders, such as academics, politicians, and religious figureheads. This also includes dressing up children (including infants) in suicide-bomber and terrorists costumers for festivals and other events.

- Demonization/denigration of Jews and incitement to hatred: Regular anti-Semitic cartoons that mirror the messages of Nazi Germany depicting the Jew as greedy, evil, and ugly. Television shows, movies, plays, animation and other children's shows, and other media that construct narratives of evil Jews, whether it be the Israeli soldier raping and/or murdering the young Palestinian girl in front of her family (as was seen in the recent anti-Semitic Turkish drama series), or others caricatures of the evil and soulless Jew.

- Blatantly dishonest historical revisionism: denial of the Holocaust (such as Hamas' removal of all Holocaust education in Gazan schools), the destruction of historical artifacts in Jerusalem's Old City obtained through illegal archaeological operations, and regular dissemination of information denying the Jewish connection to this land (such as Palestinian ministers of information and culture denying historic Jewish presence in this land through "academic" reports).

Look, I can go on and on, but as I've already said, people are welcome to view MEMRI and Palestine Media Watch videos on YouTube to see for themselves. The vicious hatred against Jews (and often Americans and other Westerners) is endemic to Arab/Muslim socieities. It is not on the fringe like it in our societies (i.e. the Westboro Baptist Church), it is the mainstream. See for yourself and ask yourself, "Could I ever expect to see these types of messages tolerated in my society?"

Here are random examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtt8V25lGmc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64JIgs5C6k

There are literally hundreds of videos out there that are translated, and of course the Arabs/Muslims never cease supplying this hatred for us to see. And of course, dre and the others would lead you to believe that "both sides" are equally complicit in propagation of this hatred, and this type of incitement. As if our two societies are moral equivalents. I guess even in WWII, there were "two sides" to that conflict.

you support the ethnic cleansing of palestinians. it's a good thing that your sick kind are in the small minority.

[DogOnPorch]

Are the Chinese mentioned by name as targets for death in the Koran?

[Bob]

American Woman, this is the untold story with respect to mainstream media North America (and Europe, in my view). When's the last time CNN ran a news piece about how endemic this sort of incitement to hatred is in Arab/Muslim societies? So when the ordinary citizen is kept in the dark about these realities, he or she is likely to assume (in a myopic way) that the Israeli/Jewish society and Arab/Muslim society are more or less the same. It's sort of a default assumption that we're all pretty much the same. It's a fatally flawed assumption, of course, and an assumption that is exploited by certain elements to lead you to believe that "both sides" are moral equivalents. As I already said, I guess "both sides" were moral equivalents in WWII. The Nazis had their perspectives, too.

I'll make one more general comment, and this relates to the reflexive criticisms of "racism" from the usual suspects in response to critiques of cultures and societies. We judge cultures and societies from a broad level, and as collectives. There were obviously intelligent and good-hearted Germans during WWII, but that doesn't mean German culture and society was a failure in that context. Thankfully, Germany has arguably redeemed itself and joined the small group of civilized states. In the same vein, we shouldn't be afraid to call out Arab/Muslim societies for the failures they are. They are inferior to our societies, and deeply flawed and in need of reform. Even worse, these problems cannot be ignored as they are directly affecting the West (9/11 being exhibit A, as it were, although terrorism against America and the West from Arabs/Muslims predates 9/11 by decades).

Edited July 2, 2011 by Bob

[Bob]

Are the Chinese mentioned by name as targets for death in the Koran?

I didn't want to get into that, as I think it's above BC_Chick's head. The point is she's trying to suggest that anti-Semitism (which manifests itself in war and mass murder campaigns) from the Arabs/Muslims isn't a big deal because the Arabs/Muslims would hate anyone who "took their land". As if that's supposed to make me feel better. As if that someone changes the thousands of reasons we have to be extremely concerned about these people, and those thousands of reasons are buried in cemeteries in Israel and abroad.

"It's nothing personal, they hate all the infidels!"

[DogOnPorch]

you support the ethnic cleansing of palestinians. it's a good thing that your sick kind are in the small minority.

Muslims practically invented ethnic cleansing. But that's A-OK...

[Bob]

Muslims practically invented ethnic cleansing. But that's A-OK...

I don't support ethnic cleansing per se, but as I've said many times in here, we've got thousands of good reasons to want protection from these people considering the way they are. Those thousands of good reasons all have first and last names. Of course the "Palestinians" may change towards the better in the future, but I see no reason to be optimistic, if anything they are worse than they've ever been.

I'm not entirely comfortable with a fifth column in my country composing 20% of our population, who are largely hostile to our basic values and supportive of terrorism against us. It's hard to imagine any other country tolerating such a minority among its population.

[bud]

I didn't want to get into that, as I think it's above BC_Chick's head.

you have me scratching my head as to why a jew would show this huge disrespect towards holocaust victims by advocating ethnic cleansing.

[DogOnPorch]

Yeah...let's not mention the uncomfortable reality that was the Grand Mufti's personal hand in the Holocaust.

[DogOnPorch]

It's like giving Himmler a pass.

[bud]

Muslims practically invented ethnic cleansing. But that's A-OK...

what else would you expect? they're muslims. they also practically invented cancer and more recently aids.

[DogOnPorch]

what else would you expect? they're muslims. they also practically invented cancer and more recently aids.

Ingnoring history, are you? Your fingers must get tired rewriting it to suit your pro-terrorist agenda.

[DogOnPorch]

The Greeks think twice?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/07/01/greece-flotilla.html

[bud]

Yeah...let's not mention the uncomfortable reality that was the Grand Mufti's personal hand in the Holocaust.

totally dog. i guess you drew the grand mufti card again. i'm sure my favourite, the you support hamas card will make an appearance soon.

but yeah! totally! guess what else! the grand mufti who represents all of the present and past palestinians, who only pretended to support and fight along with the british, were actually the architects of the holocaust!

[DogOnPorch]

totally dog. i guess you drew the grand mufti card again. i'm sure my favourite, the you support hamas card will make an appearance soon.

but yeah! totally! guess what else! the grand mufti who represents all of the present and past palestinians, who only pretended to support and fight along with the british, were actually the architects of the holocaust!

Not familiar with the 3rd Reich's history, are you?

[DogOnPorch]

Let's re-review one of his most infamous acts:

Rome

June 28, 1943

His Excellency

The Minister of Foreign Affairs for Hungary

Your Excellency:

You no doubt know of the struggle between the Arabs and Jews of Palestine, what it has been and what it is, a long and bloody fight, brought about by the desire of the Jews to create a national home, a Jewish State in the Near East, with the help and protection of England and the United States. In fact, behind it lies the hope which the Jews have never relinquished, namely, the domination of the whole world through this Important, strategic center, Palestine. In effect their program has, among other purposes, always aimed at the encouragement of Jewish migration to Palestine and the other countries of the Near East. However, the war, as well as the understanding which the members of the Three-Power Pact have of the responsibility of the Jews for its outbreak and finally their evil intentions towards these countries which protected them until now - all these are reasons for placing them under such vigilant control as will definitely stop their emigration to Palestine or elsewhere.

Lately I have been informed of the uninterrupted efforts made by the English and the Jews to obtain permission for the Jews living in your country to leave for Palestine via Bulgaria and Turkey. I have also learned that these negotiations were successful since some of the Jews of Hungary have had the satisfaction of emigrating to Palestine via Bulgaria and Turkey and that a group of these Jews arrived In Palestine towards the end of last March. The Jewish Agency, which supervises the execution of the Jewish program, has published a bulletin which contains important information on the current negotiations between the English Government and the governments of other interested states to send the Jews of Balkan countries to Palestine. The Jewish Agency quoted, among other things, its receipt of a sufficient number of immigration certificates for 900 Jewish children to be transported from Hungary, accompanied by 100 adults.

To authorize these Jews to leave your country under the above circumstances and in this way, would by no means solve the Jewish problem and would certainly not protect your country against their evil influence - far from it! - for this escape would make it possible for them to communicate and combine freely with their racial brethren in enemy countries in order to strengthen their position and to exert a more dangerous influence on the outcome of the war, especially since, as a consequence of their long stay in your country they are necessarily in a position to know many of your secrets and also about your war effort. All this comes on top of the terrible damage done to the friendly Arab nation which has taken its place at your side in this war and which cherishes for your country the most sincere feelings and the very best wishes.

This is the reason why I ask your Excellency to permit me to draw your attention to the necessity of preventing the Jews from leaving your country for Palestine and if there are reasons which make their removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland, in order thereby to protect oneself from their menace and avoid the consequent damages

Yours, etc.

Source: The Arab Higher Committee. Its Origins, Personnel and Purposes. Documentary Record Submitted to the United Nations, May 1947, by the Nation Associates. Hungary acceded to the Mufti's request and sent Hungarian Jews to the death camps ("where they would find themselves under active control") in Poland. The Nation Associates added their own note stating that as a result of this request, 400,000+ Jews were killed.

[Letter from Mufti ends here]

[Guest American Woman]

I did answer you.

Ummm. No, you didn't - which I find interesting because apparently you're astute enough to recognize it when someone isn't answering your actual question. Perhaps you had too many "warm beers" yesterday so I'll try again today.

Because they're Muslim and they are in a in a conflict with Jewish people *over the same piece of land* (which the Jewish side claims is Jewish land).

This doesn't explain why they are willing to recognize Israel as a state but not as a Jewish state. What does that have to do with the land that they want? Would they suddenly care less about the land if they didn't recognize Israel as a Jewish state? Would the land suddenly become theirs? How does whether or not Israel is recognized as a Jewish state affect the conflict over the land? Would the "Jewish people" be less Jewish?? - and why would that matter if there is no animosity towards Jews?

My point is that their being Jewish IS a factor in this conflict - too many Muslims want to rid the area/the world of "infidels." There is a strong vendetta against Jews within Islam at this time. There are Islamic states in the area, and they are recognized as such, while there is a refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. If it were simply about the land, as you claim, whether Israel is recognized as a state or a JEWISH state wouldn't make any difference.

Look, I don't know how many times we should go on repeating ourselves - just come out and say whatever it is you're trying to say. It's obvious you think you have a point.

Speaking for myself, I won't be repeating myself any more. If you still can't address the actual point I'm making, you either are stubbornly refusing to see that the attitude of too many Muslims in the area towards Jews IS a factor in this conflict - or you really are unable to get it, which goes a long way towards explaining your views regarding this conflict.

[DogOnPorch]

i'm sure my favourite, the you support hamas card will make an appearance soon.

I paint what I see.

[Tilter]

I paint what I see.

are the Canadians involved with this idiocy the same ones who "celebrated" the G20 in TO or the Great Hockey Riot in VR?

If so--- the "WHY ARE THEY?" is easily answered--- nothing else to raise hell with.

Too many rich kids with too much money & not enough brains.

[Oleg Bach]

There are families that I know where hate is a long lasting intergenerational condition. They teach their kids to dispise everyone. THIS is a huge dis-service to your own child...You cripple them - limit them and haters always die a miserable death - plus their quality of life is much much lower than lovers. So I hear the Greeks came and grabbed the lunitics and their "flotilla" and towed them back ----GOOD - you either approach a problem with a clear head and good intentions - and with good faith for all - or you shut the f up!

[Oleg Bach]

are the Canadians involved with this idiocy the same ones who "celebrated" the G20 in TO or the Great Hockey Riot in VR?

If so--- the "WHY ARE THEY?" is easily answered--- nothing else to raise hell with.

Too many rich kids with too much money & not enough brains.

Most people admire and worship the rich - and kiss their asses. They assume if you are rich that you are smarter and more intelligent - so the average person bows to the rich thinking that some how "a bit of bread will fall from the masters table" - sorry to inform you rich does not mean smart - It means that someone had a great drive and desire to dedicate their every waking moment to accumulation of wealth - anyone could do that - some choose not too...These rioting rich kids are not smart _ IF they were intelligent they simply would not have rioted.