Fun with Flotillas Pt II

[Remiel]

I think that is a weak position, as I see no legitimacy to nationalistic claims from a group of people that is indistinguishable from neighbouring Arab countries at the expense of the only Jewish state.

Then I guess we have two different ideas of where political legitimacy derives from that are not going to be reconciled here. You think that it ultimately rests with groups, and I think it ultimately rests with individuals.

But how exactly is a Palestinian state an expense to the Jewish state if it is created on land that Arabs have been living on for decades or even centuries? How, exactly, is it a bigger expense to Israel to let Palestinians live where they have been living for all of living memory, than it is go suddenly shunt them off, as it seems you want to, to neighouring Arab states which suddenly would have to find not only land to put them on put houses to put them in, services and food to sustain them with? Does Lebanon not already have precarious political situation that is rapidly deteriorating? Do you drop them in the middle of a war zone in Syria? Do you really want to put them in Egypt, where they would make the situation more volatile when everyone (including Israel) really needs it to cool down? Can you know what will happen if you put them all in Jordan? Even if you could remove them all from Israel, only a fool would think it would be free of charge.

[dre]

Then I guess we have two different ideas of where political legitimacy derives from that are not going to be reconciled here. You think that it ultimately rests with groups, and I think it ultimately rests with individuals.

But how exactly is a Palestinian state an expense to the Jewish state if it is created on land that Arabs have been living on for decades or even centuries? How, exactly, is it a bigger expense to Israel to let Palestinians live where they have been living for all of living memory, than it is go suddenly shunt them off, as it seems you want to, to neighouring Arab states which suddenly would have to find not only land to put them on put houses to put them in, services and food to sustain them with? Does Lebanon not already have precarious political situation that is rapidly deteriorating? Do you drop them in the middle of a war zone in Syria? Do you really want to put them in Egypt, where they would make the situation more volatile when everyone (including Israel) really needs it to cool down? Can you know what will happen if you put them all in Jordan? Even if you could remove them all from Israel, only a fool would think it would be free of charge.

Bobs litmus test for statehood is nothing but racist tripe. All thats required to form a nation is a bunch of people living on a territory with an organized government.

Even if you could remove them all from Israel

The palestinians dont live in Israel any more than mexicans live on the moon. They live on their own territory which is not part of any recognized nation state.

[bud]

a racist such as bob who calls for ethnic cleansing of a people should be treated like any other racist and fascist. his ideas should not be given any legitimacy.

[bush_cheney2004]

a racist such as bob who calls for ethnic cleansing of a people should be treated like any other racist and fascist. his ideas should not be given any legitimacy.

Why not? Do you think your ideas and support of a sovereign Canada's existence / actions are in some way superior....and "legitimate"? How do you reconcile this disparity? Is it "racist" and "fascist"?

[Remiel]

The palestinians dont live in Israel any more than mexicans live on the moon. They live on their own territory which is not part of any recognized nation state.

I would consider it charitable if you interpreted " Israel " as closer to " Land of Israel " than " State of Israel " , though it does not exactly match up to anything either way.

[Bob]

Then I guess we have two different ideas of where political legitimacy derives from that are not going to be reconciled here. You think that it ultimately rests with groups, and I think it ultimately rests with individuals.

That statement doesn't make any sense. And I'm not talking about political legitimacy, but worthiness of nationalistic claims. There's an overlap, but they're not one-in-the-same. At this point in the conversation, we've just barely touched on perhaps the biggest forfeiture of the claims of the "Palestinians" to national rights - the way they operate. They are committed to anti-Semitism and warfare against Israel - through terrorism and political delegitimization.

But how exactly is a Palestinian state an expense to the Jewish state if it is created on land that Arabs have been living on for decades or even centuries? How, exactly, is it a bigger expense to Israel to let Palestinians live where they have been living for all of living memory, than it is go suddenly shunt them off, as it seems you want to, to neighouring Arab states which suddenly would have to find not only land to put them on put houses to put them in, services and food to sustain them with? Does Lebanon not already have precarious political situation that is rapidly deteriorating? Do you drop them in the middle of a war zone in Syria? Do you really want to put them in Egypt, where they would make the situation more volatile when everyone (including Israel) really needs it to cool down? Can you know what will happen if you put them all in Jordan? Even if you could remove them all from Israel, only a fool would think it would be free of charge.

None of this would have been a problem if they'd accepted the many opportunities they've had in the past to actualize independence. Beyond that, they've been committed to violence and terrorism since decades before Israel's reestablishment. Am I supposed to have sympathy for a group of people that is perhaps the most anti-Semitic in the world today? They are responsible for their own predicament. They have engaged and continue to engage in some of the most barbaric acts around the world - and you think I want these people having sovereignty on my doorstep?

They lynch political opponents, apostates, alleged Israeli "collaboration", homosexuals, tear them to pieces, desecrate their remains, string them up in public squares, condemn their families, perpetuate the most vile anti-Semitic propaganda in all dimensions of public discourse (from the top to the bottom and back up again), murder children in cold blood with their bare hands, desecrate Jewish and Christian holy sites, prohibit Holocaust education in their schools, indoctrinate their children with hate, glorify suicide bombers and other terrorists, etc.

If they'd reconciled themselves to the existence of Israel as a Jewish state, they'd have had their own state by now. Since they'll never do so (they view Israel as a mistake that they are committed to correcting), the status quo will remain indefinitely. You speak about these "Palestinians" as if they are ordinary people who are between a rock and a hard place at no fault of their own. If anything, they have much more than they deserve and have yet to really suffer the consequences of their crimes. Their current situation is a product of their own decisions.

In all seriousness, there are very serious problems around the world that need attention. Many of these "Palestinians" live in a sort of political limbo, so what? They have cameras, Swiss chocolate, cell phones, internet, indoor plumbing, electricity, and education. Who cares if they only have "observer" status at the UN and need to go through Israeli checkpoints before coming into OUR hospitals to receive care? They have everything they need except the destruction of Israel and the establishment of another Arab-Islamic failed state. Let's start talking about real problems, and stop dramatizing the "plight of the Palestinians". There are real people around the world who need help and are actually worthy of the assistance, while the "Palestinians" remain the highest per-capita recipients of foreign aid around the world.

[Bob]

The palestinians dont live in Israel any more than mexicans live on the moon. They live on their own territory which is not part of any recognized nation state.

They forfeited their "rights" to independence long-ago. You don't get to wage wars and campaigns of terror against Israel and the Jewish people, lose, and then ask for a do-over. This isn't mini-put golf. There's a certain point when collectively a group no longer has any legitimacy in its outcries for national rights - that point was crossed long ago by these Arabs, and continues to be crossed every day.

For God's sake, off the top of my head I can recall several terrorist incidents from recent months. Most notably and gruesomely, the murder of the Fogel family in Itamar, the central-bus station bombing in Jerusalem that killed the British Jewish woman who was studying at Hebrew U, the shooting of the religious folks going to Jacob's Tomb (killing one, wounding others) by "Palestinian security" (armed and trained by Israel and the USA), the teenage boy killed in the school bus by a Hamas rocket, the two female hikers assaulted (one was murdered, the other left for dead) near Jerusalem, the Rehavia "road rage" murderer who shouted "Allahu Akbhar" while driving down the road and smashing into vehicles (murdering one, injuring others), etc.... but of course these are tortured souls with no other outlet for "resistance" against the "Zionist entity". When is enough enough? When I am allowed to say to hell with their nationalistic demands? We're not going to grant these people more autonomy so that they can more effectively wage their campaign of terrorism against us.

Edited June 26, 2011 by Bob

[dre]

They forfeited their "rights" to independence long-ago. You don't get to wage wars and campaigns of terror against Israel and the Jewish people, lose, and then ask for a do-over. This isn't mini-put golf. There's a certain point when collectively a group no longer has any legitimacy in its outcries for national rights - that point was crossed long ago by these Arabs, and continues to be crossed every day.

For God's sake, off the top of my head I can recall several terrorist incidents from recent months. Most notably and gruesomely, the murder of the Fogel family in Itamar, the central-bus station bombing in Jerusalem that killed the British Jewish woman who was studying at Hebrew U, the shooting of the religious folks going to Jacob's Tomb (killing one, wounding others) by "Palestinian security" (armed and trained by Israel and the USA), the teenage boy killed in the school bus by a Hamas rocket, the two female hikers assaulted (one was murdered, the other left for dead) near Jerusalem, the Rehavia "road rage" murderer who shouted "Allahu Akbhar" while driving down the road and smashing into vehicles (murdering one, injuring others), etc.... but of course these are tortured souls with no other outlet for "resistance" against the "Zionist entity". When is enough enough? When I am allowed to say to hell with their nationalistic demands? We're not going to grant these people more autonomy so that they can more effectively wage their campaign of terrorism against us.

When I am allowed to say to hell with their nationalistic demands? We're not going to grant these people more autonomy so that they can more effectively wage their campaign of terrorism against us.

Im not trying to silence you Bob. Youre allowed to express your racism and religious zealotry any time you like. I actually think its valuable to have you here because people get an idea first hand the type of militant, racist attitudes by people on both sides over there that have made a resolution to CONFLICT: DIRTFARM impossible, and a poster child for the reasons that you clowns will be fighting over the crappiest piece of realestate on the planet for hundreds of years to come.

[DogOnPorch]

Im not trying to silence you Bob. Youre allowed to express your racism and religious zealotry any time you like. I actually think its valuable to have you here because people get an idea first hand the type of militant, racist attitudes by people on both sides over there that have made a resolution to CONFLICT: DIRTFARM impossible, and a poster child for the reasons that you clowns will be fighting over the crappiest piece of realestate on the planet for hundreds of years to come.

Israelis not liking Arabs is like the British not liking the Germans at a certain point in history. There are reasons for this beyond your self-centred view of the planet...and no...it's not about the Jordan River.

dre: Winston Churchill, you racist. The Luftwaffe are people too!

[bud]

Why not? Do you think your ideas and support of a sovereign Canada's existence / actions are in some way superior....and "legitimate"? How do you reconcile this disparity? Is it "racist" and "fascist"?

you may not have a problem with people who call for ethnic cleansing, but many others do.

[Oleg Bach]

you may not have a problem with people who call for ethnic cleansing, but many others do.

Bob drops in - joins up for a minute - spews of some racial Zionist crap ----trolling the web---trying to propogate his agenda then leaves - I feel like a woman that got F**ked and dumped - I know for sure BOB is done with us and had his pleasure and moved on - BOB is a classic fanatic and that is why - with people like him there will never be peace - He reminds me of the American terror machine - ANY ONE CARE TO BUY AN AIRPORT SCREENING MACHINE - 50 thousand and it's yours! Bob is the classic parasite that has attempted to etch out a living our of the hate buisness,..

[bush_cheney2004]

you may not have a problem with people who call for ethnic cleansing, but many others do.

No, I have a problem with people who preach to "Zionists" while living comfortably in "settled" Canada (or the United States), even as their military machines "ethnically cleanse" the locals in far off nations in the interest of "human rights".

[Bob]

No, I have a problem with people who preach to "Zionists" while living comfortably in "settled" Canada (or the United States), even as their military machines "ethnically cleanse" the locals in far off nations in the interest of "human rights".

The irony, of course, is that ethnic cleansing is exactly what the Arabs and Muslims want. They've been quite successful in eliminating most minority cultures from the territories in which they are majorities. Israel is the ultimate expression of rejection of ethnic cleansing in a tough neighbourhood. Zionism is anti-imperialism and anti-colonialism to its core.

[Guest American Woman]

No, I have a problem with people who preach to "Zionists" while living comfortably in "settled" Canada (or the United States), even as their military machines "ethnically cleanse" the locals in far off nations in the interest of "human rights".

Israel is definitely expected to live by different standards than the rest of the world. That's one of the biggest problems I have with this conflict - how the rest of the world too often makes excuses for Hamas and the Palestinians voting Hamas in, while holding Israel to the highest of standards. Yet when personally faced with the same issues as Israel, most would make excuses for behaving precisely the way Israel has behaved. It becomes a different matter when it's 'them' and not 'someone else.'

It's a measure of 'tolerance' these days to 'understand' why Hamas et al does what it does as the 'holier than thou' judgement of Israel is perceived as being oh-so-fair-minded.

Israel and Israel alone knows what it feels like to live surrounded by Arab/Muslim countries and to live under the threats that exists to them as such. Therefore, Israel is going to do what Israel feels it must do in order to survive.

Israel has as much a right to exist and be recognized as a Jewish state as the Arab nations have a right to exist and be recognized as Muslim states.

[bush_cheney2004]

... Yet when personally faced with the same issues as Israel, most would make excuses for behaving precisely the way Israel has behaved. It becomes a different matter when it's 'them' and not 'someone else'...

No doubt....I have always maintained that some of these bleeding hearts would change their tune if Hamilton or North Vancouver experienced years of Katyusha rocket attacks or suicide bombings.

[Bob]

Israel is definitely expected to live by different standards than the rest of the world. That's one of the biggest problems I have with this conflict - how the rest of the world too often makes excuses for Hamas and the Palestinians voting Hamas in, while holding Israel to the highest of standards. Yet when personally faced with the same issues as Israel, most would make excuses for behaving precisely the way Israel has behaved. It becomes a different matter when it's 'them' and not 'someone else.'

It's a measure of 'tolerance' these days to 'understand' why Hamas et al does what it does as the 'holier than thou' judgement of Israel is perceived as being oh-so-fair-minded.

Israel and Israel alone knows what it feels like to live surrounded by Arab/Muslim countries and to live under the threats that exists to them as such. Therefore, Israel is going to do what Israel feels it must do in order to survive.

Israel has as much a right to exist and be recognized as a Jewish state as the Arab nations have a right to exist and be recognized as Muslim states.

Not only that, but Israel is viciously criticized for fighting with kids' gloves. If Israel had the courage to finally crush our enemies and end this conflict, we would have done so many times over. But we don't, and you want to know why? Leftism. Bleeding heartism. Self hatred and self doubt. Acceptance of the narrative of the enemy. All of those things tie our hands and prevent us from ending this conflict. It's as if the self-righteousness of the suicidal left is something we should defer to. Unfortunately, Israel has been compromising for decades, always as the expense of Israeli blood, and always with nothing positive to show for it.

Lastly, you speak about the threats outside of Israel, but the most dangerous threat is that which lived within - the Arabs who compose about 20% of our citizenry. It is is the enemy within, the fifth column (who have their fair share of blood on their hands). Imagine America with a 20% Arab population (overwhelmingly Muslim) that rejected the principles upon which you were founded and perceived the land as belonging to them. That's what Israel's been dealing with since day one. It's an incomprehensible situation.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Bob

[Bob]

No doubt....I have always maintained that some of these bleeding hearts would change their tune if Hamilton or North Vancouver experienced years of Katyusha rocket attacks or suicide bombings.

Unfortunately, Israel still hasn't reached its threshold of of patience. We still tolerate these ceaseless attacks, both terrorist and political, decade after decade. You also left out the many wars. Imagine being attacked time and again by neighbours that surround you, when is enough enough? Like I just said to American Woman, we even tolerate the enemy within, on whose behalf the left has the audacity to claim are the victims of discrimination in Israeli society. There is no other country on earth that deals with such an absurd situation.

[DogOnPorch]

No doubt....I have always maintained that some of these bleeding hearts would change their tune if Hamilton or North Vancouver experienced years of Katyusha rocket attacks or suicide bombings.

Terrorist attacks are just an abstract to the vast majority of people...and Katyusha rockets are mere Estes powered toys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRhv9_jHDhk

Edited June 27, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Bob]

Terrorist attacks are just an abstract to the vast majority of people...and Katyusha rockets are mere Estes powered toys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRhv9_jHDhk

Wow, mentioning Estes, that's a throwback to my childhood! I use to love those rockets and the parachutes!

That's an interesting video. I guess the left won't shed its worthless tears for Israeli blood being spilled until the terrorists are given those mega-launchers. Those poor Palestinians, they only have shoulder-mounted single-fire launchers at this point in time!

[DogOnPorch]

Wow, mentioning Estes, that's a throwback to my childhood! I use to love those rockets and the parachutes!

That's an interesting video. I guess the left won't shed its worthless tears for Israeli blood being spilled until the terrorists are given those mega-launchers. Those poor Palestinians, they only have shoulder-mounted single-fire launchers at this point in time!

Hamas actually uses the ground mounted launch rails for their Katyushas/Qassams. Trucks would be too much of a target.

[Bob]

Hamas actually uses the ground mounted launch rails for their Katyushas/Qassams. Trucks would be too much of a target.

Yes, I've seen videos of them. I wasn't being entirely serious with my post. But the launchers on the trucks in the video you posted seem to be larger than the Hamas ones I've seen, or am I just being fooled by the size of the truck?

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, I've seen videos of them. I wasn't being entirely serious with my post. But the launchers on the trucks in the video you posted seem to be larger than the Hamas ones I've seen, or am I just being fooled by the size of the truck?

During WW2, Katyushas came in various sizes, from small to large...anti-tank to anti-personal. Qassams are essentially copies of the early anti-personal models. Hamas/Hezbollah need to be able to build these in impromptu factories like the Soviets did...garage/basement projects.

[bloodyminded]

Not only that, but Israel is viciously criticized for fighting with kids' gloves. If Israel had the courage to finally crush our enemies and end this conflict, we would have done so many times over. But we don't, and you want to know why? Leftism. Bleeding heartism. Self hatred and self doubt. Acceptance of the narrative of the enemy. All of those things tie our hands and prevent us from ending this conflict. It's as if the self-righteousness of the suicidal left is something we should defer to. Unfortunately, Israel has been compromising for decades, always as the expense of Israeli blood, and always with nothing positive to show for it.

then clearly--by definition, and uncontroversially--the political Right is similarly to blame.

You can't take all the errors of every govenrment and every action, and blame this sinsiter entity called "the Left" (of which you know only what is screamed into your face by masturbatory droolers anyway).

What about responsibility for one's own actions? (And inactions?)

Even if your narrative is correct, the political Right is totally, absolutely and singularly guilty--of its own sweet accord.

The well-considerd and profound theory of political economy--ie "the Left! The Left!"--simply doesn't cut it. Soothing perhaps, as those you admire can be shorn of all responsibility, thanks to the evil Marxists ruining everything. But an unwise approach, as matters hostile to thought usually are.

Christ, Bob, I see where you're coming from now: you defend Beck for shilling for an anti-semitic work...you would not be so forgiving with a leftist. You say you agree with Hitchens...well then, you don't know what Hitchens has said about Israel and Zionism. I'll tell you this: Chomsky has never gone as far as Hitchens on these matters.

Or maybe you do know. But don't care.

It's all about your partisan, right-wing ideology, the only precious gem in your collection.

Edited June 27, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Bob]

I am criticizing the left for unjustifiably characterizing Israel as an overly aggressive human rights abusing rogue state that suppresses the noble and helpless Palestinians. The left is now, and has been for many decades, the champion of dishonest argumentation attacking Israel in in this conflict. Moreover, Israel is often deferential to the forces of the left, both internally and externally, when making vital decisions regarding defending ourselves from attacks, both political and terrorist. I blame the left, primarily, for the failure of Israel to make greater progress towards ensuring our security (there will never be a peaceful solution, so long as the Arabs and Muslims cling to their narrative). Israel would be a much more secure and prosperous nation if it weren't for deference to the insanity of the left, that tries to tar us with all the vicious rhetoric - Apartheid, rogue state, racist, discriminatory, colonialist, imperialist, and everything in between. If Israel stopped worrying about appeasing the rats from the left who want to see the destruction of Jewish independence and self-determination, we'd be much better off.

As far as Hitchens goes, much of what he's said about Zionism is misrepresented in Wikipedia, and he's dead wrong about some of these issues, anyways. He is vehemently anti-religious, so he reflexively has a bone to pick with Israel as it defines itself as "the Jewish state". Still, he's not comparable in any way to the dishonesty that comes from Chomsky. I don't universally "agree" with Hitchens, I just think he's had some interesting things to say. I can agree with someone on one thing and disagree with them on another thing, you know?

And I never "defended" anything from Beck. All I said was that he was among the group of poached talent from CNN, that went to Fox News. I still don't know what book you're talking about, and in all seriousness I really don't care.

[dre]

Israel is definitely expected to live by different standards than the rest of the world. That's one of the biggest problems I have with this conflict - how the rest of the world too often makes excuses for Hamas and the Palestinians voting Hamas in, while holding Israel to the highest of standards. Yet when personally faced with the same issues as Israel, most would make excuses for behaving precisely the way Israel has behaved. It becomes a different matter when it's 'them' and not 'someone else.'

It's a measure of 'tolerance' these days to 'understand' why Hamas et al does what it does as the 'holier than thou' judgement of Israel is perceived as being oh-so-fair-minded.

Israel and Israel alone knows what it feels like to live surrounded by Arab/Muslim countries and to live under the threats that exists to them as such. Therefore, Israel is going to do what Israel feels it must do in order to survive.

Israel has as much a right to exist and be recognized as a Jewish state as the Arab nations have a right to exist and be recognized as Muslim states.

Trying to say that Israel is held to a different standard makes no sense. This situation is pretty unique.

Can you name another GC signatory that has kept military control of an area with millions of people in it for 40 years, and keeping them perpetually stateless, while pumping out the vast majority of the valuable resources from that region, and also facilitating the transfer of its own citizens into the occupied territory, building infrastructure, cities, etc?

The only standards anyone is trying to hold Israel too, are standards set forth by international treaties that they voluntarily signed... Israel set its OWN standards.

And most Israelis THEMSELVES support these standards as well. A clear majority thinks Israel should leave the vast majority of the occupied territories, and allow a palestinian state.