The Bible

[betsy]

FACT: ARCHEOLOGY SHOWS EVIDENCE THAT THE BIBLE PROVIDES AN ACCURATE EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT OF EVENTS THAT OCCURRED SOUTHEAST OF THE DEAD SEA OVER 4,000 YEARS AGO.

The following article provides a very detailed explanation about the discovery, all the evidences and how they have come up with the conclusion. The evidences stauntly support the Biblical narrative in Genesis.

This article was originally published in summer 1999 issue of Bible and Spade.

Sodom and Gomorrah were two of five cities referred to in Scripture as the Cities of the Plain. From references to the "plain of the Jordan" (Gn 13:10), "the Valley of Siddim (the Salt Sea)" (Gn 14:3) and Abraham looking down to see the Cities of the Plain from the area of Hebron (Gn 19:28), it is clear that the cities were located in the vicinity of the Dead Sea. Since the mountains come close to the shore on both the east and west, the cities must have been located either north or south of the Dead Sea. Various commentators over the centuries have suggested locations both north and south (Mulder 1992: 101 102). The reference to "bitumen pits" in Genesis 14:10, however, tips the scale in favor of a southern location (Howard 1984). Bitumen (a natural petroleum product similar to asphalt) was commonly found in the shallow southern basin of the Dead Sea in antiquity. (Bilkadi 1984; 1994; Clapp 1936a: 901–902; 1936b: 341–342).

It wasn't until 1973 that solid archaeological evidence for locating the Cities of the Plain was found. At that time an archaeological survey of the area southeast of the Dead Sea was conducted by Walter Rast and Thomas Schaub in conjunction with their work at Bab edh-Dhra, an Early Bronze (ca. 3300–2000 BC) site on the east side of the Lisan peninsula.(3) Rast and Schaub discovered four additional sites south of Bab edh-Dhra, which they suggested might be related to the Cities of the Plain of the Old Testament (Rast and Schaub 1974). Subsequent excavations at Numeira, 13 km (8 mi) south of Bab edh-Dhra, have verified its close affinity with Bab edh-Dhra.

Identifying the Sites

Bab edh-Dhra and Numeira are the only known inhabited towns in the region of the Dead Sea between ca. 3300 and 900 BC. Moreover, Bab edh-Dhra is the largest site from the pre-Hellenistic period in the area (Rast 1987b: 46). The conclusion that these sites are associated with the Cities of the Plain is inescapable (Rast 1987a: 190–94; 1992: 561).

In determining which archaeological site should be identified with which Biblical place name, we begin with Zoar. Because Lot fled to Zoar to escape the catastrophe (Gn 19:21–23), the town was spared from God's judgment. From later references to Zoar in the prophecies against Moab (Is 15:5; Jer 48:34), we know that the town continued to exist. It is further mentioned in various ancient references from the Hellenistic period to the Middle Ages (Schaub 1997b: 63; Astour 1992; Howard 1988b). (4) The most important source for locating the site is the Madaba map, a mosaic map on the floor of a church in Madaba, Jordan, depicting Palestine in the sixth century. Zoar is shown on the southeast shore of the Dead Sea, just south of the Zared River (Wadi Hesa) (Donner 1992: 42, No. 18). This places ancient Zoar in the vicinity of modem Safi, although its exact location is not known at present (Schaub 1997b: 63–64).

The Bible tells us that Lot and his daughters lived in a cave in the mountains near Zoar (Gn 19:30). At the edge of the mountains just to the east of Zoar, the Madaba Map depicts the Sanctuary of St. Lot, a church built in memory of Lot. H. Donner and E.A. Knauf discovered the ruins of the church in 1983 (Donner 1992: 42), although McDonald claims to have found the site in 1986 (Politis 1993: 338). Built in front of a cave thought to be where Lot and his daughters lived, the church is located 7 km (4 mi) northeast of Safi on the north bank of the Wadi Hesa. The earliest evidence of occupation at the site is from the Early Bronze Age.

The Evidence

General

Geological studies have shown that the level of the Dead Sea was at a low point during the Early Bronze Age (Neev and Emery 1995: 62) and thus the shallow basin, or "plain" south of the Dead Sea, would have been dry land and probably cultivated. (5) The location of the Early Bronze Age sites along the eastern edge of the plain fits the Biblical description of the cities as being of the plain. "Cities of the Plain" is in the construct state in the Hebrew, which means that the word "cities" has a close association with the word "plain." The cities were not in the plain, or on the plain. If that were the case, a different construction would have been used. Rather, the cities were "of" the plain—they had a close association, or connection, with the plain. They were doubtless dependent upon the plain for their livelihood.

Paleobotany

The first description of the Cities of the Plain in the Bible is in the account of Lot separating from Abraham in Genesis 13:10–13. There, the plain is described as being "well watered" as far as Zoar (Gn 13:10). The Hebrew words translated "well watered" are kullah, an intensive form of the verb meaning "to be complete," and masqeh, from the verb meaning "to give to drink" or "irrigate." The meaning of kullah masqeh, then, is to be completely and totally irrigated. Paleo-botanical studies have shown that there was a rich diversity of crops grown at Bab edh-Dhra and Numeira. Most common were barley, wheat, grapes, figs, lentils and flax. Less common were chickpeas, peas, broad beans, dates and olives (McCreery 1980:52). Several of these crops could only have been grown with the use of irrigation:

There is little doubt that agriculture was an important component of the economic base of the EB cities in the region and that irrigation was a key element of the agricultural industry (McCreery 1981: 168; cf p. 167, 1980: 52).

Fortifications

When the two angels came to Sodom to warn Lot of the impending doom, they found him sitting in the city gate (Gn 19:1). This indicates that Sodom was fortified. Bab edh-Dhra, which means "gate of the arm," had imposing fortifications. The city wall, enclosing an area of 9–10 acres, was a massive 7 m (23 ft) wide and made of stones and mud bricks (Schaub 1993: 134). Evidence for settlement was found outside the walls as well. The total population at the time Bab edh-Dhra met its end was between 600 and 1,200 (Rast 1987b: 47; 1992: 560; Schaub 1993: 134). Within the walls were a sanctuary on a high spot at the southwest end of the city, domestic and industrial areas, and a gateway on the northeast side.

Two Destructions

The Bible tells of not one, but two, traumatic events that occurred in the final days of Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 14 describes an attack against the Cities of the Plain by a coalition of four Mesopotamian kings.

From the chronological data given in Genesis, it is possible to approximate the time span between the sacking of Sodom and Gomorrah by the kings of Mesopotamia and the final destruction of the cities. The account of the attack of the Mesopotamian coalition comes between the time when Abraham left Haran when he was 75 (12:4) and the conception of lshmael when Abraham was 85 (16:3). Since Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed at the time of the conception of Isaac when Abraham was 99 (17:1, 21:5), the sacking of Sodom and Gomorrah by the kings of Mesopotamia took place between 14 and 24 years before the final holocaust. There is evidence at both Bab edh-Dhra and Numeira for two destructions.

Evidence for Destruction at Bab edh-Dhra

Throughout most of the life of Bab edh-Dhra the main entrance to the city was located on the west side, giving access to the plain below. Within the last 100 years of occupation, the west wall and gate area underwent a major destruction (Schaub and Rast 1984: 46; Rast 1987b: 47; Schaub 1997a: 249). This resulted in the citizens intentionally blocking up the west gate and constructing a new gate in the northeast (Schaub and Rast 1984: 46; Schaub 1993: 134). The new gate was founded on a meter of burned destruction debris resulting from the calamity (Rast and Schaub 1980: 28; Rast 1981a: 20).

Shortly thereafter, at the close of the Early Bronze III period, the fortified city at Bab edh-Dhra met a final fiery end. Even though the site is badly eroded, enough evidence remained in several areas to show the severity of the disaster. The northeast gate was destroyed by fire as indicated by charcoal, broken and fallen bricks, and areas of ash (Rast 1981: 21). There was a massive pile-up of mudbrick in the west end suggesting heavy destruction in this part of the city (Rast 1981: 31). At this time the city wall fell and the mudbrick superstructure of the sanctuary collapsed, apparently after burning (Rast 1992: 560). The many stone and boulder fields within the city came from walls that were disrupted and transported downslope (Donahue 1980: 51; 1985:136).

Following the destruction, there was occupation at Bab edh-Dhra in the Early Bronze IV period, but almost exclusively outside the destroyed Early Bronze III fortified town. Following this brief period of extramural settlement, the site was permanently abandoned.

At Numeira, a better preserved site than Bab edh-Dhra, the evidence is even more dramatic. Unlike Bab edh-Dhra, the remnants of the town did not suffer erosional damage. Also in contrast to Bab edh-Dhra, Numeira was occupied for less than 100 years (Rast 1981b: 42; Rast and Schaub 1980: 43). On the east side of Numeira is a large tower 7.4 m (24 ft) wide and at least 10.0 m (33 ft) long (Coogan 1984: 80). It was built over an earlier domestic phase that suffered a heavy burning.

This earliest phase of occupation was destroyed by fire; the walls and rooms that collapsed over the ashy destruction debris consisted of considerable mudbrick detritus, many large wooden beams, and carbonized grasses and reeds still tied by the ropes that had held them together as thatch. On the occupational surface of Room V (NE 10/2 Locus 5) was the skeleton of a mature male who had perished in the destruction of this earliest phase (Coogan 1984: 79).

Similar evidence was found in Room 4 just inside the southern wall. Some 20–30 cm (8–12 in) below the final phase was an earlier phase with fragments of human bones (Rast and Schaub 1980:44).

As with Bab edh-Dhra, Numeira was violently destroyed at the end of the Early Bronze III period. The type of pottery lying on the floors of the houses confirms that it met its end at the same time as Bab edh-Dhra (Rast and Schaub 1980: 45). A thick layer of burnt debris was found in almost every area excavated (Rast 1981b: 41; 1987b: 47).

Michael Coogan, one of the excavators of Numeira, described what the archaeologists encountered:

Under the topsoil (desert pavement) and a naturally deposited windblown sandy soil, the entire area was covered by the ashy debris of the final destruction of the town, up to 0.40 m in depth. This ash contained fragments of wooden beams that had supported the roofs of the dwellings and lay immediately over the latest occupational layer within each room, sealing the material beneath it. Not infrequently there was mudbrick detritus over the ash, which had resulted from the collapse of the mudbrick superstructures after the final conflagration (1984: 76).

On the inner side of the tower more startling evidence was found for the tragedy which overcame Numeira.

Over the final layer was a thick (0.50–0.10 m) layer of ashy debris, in which were found the skeletons of two mature males who perished in the final destruction of the town; over this was mudbrick detritus and rockfall (Coogan 1984:80).

In Room 4 just inside the southern wall were fragments of human bones above and on the final surface (Rast and Schaub 1980: 44). Numeira met a tragic end and was never again occupied.

…..Thus, we can estimate the time span between the two destructions as being a little more than 20 years, which agrees with the Biblical time frame (14 to 24 years) between the events of Genesis 14 and 19 (Shea 1988: 18–19).

Means of the Destruction of the Cities of the Plain

The Biblical Description

The Bible provides a detailed description of the calamity that befell the Cities of the Plain. In that description are two Hebrew phrases and a Hebrew word that must be examined in order to understand the event: goprit wa es, the material that fell on the cities (Gen 19:24), hapak, what happened to the cities (Gen 19:25), and kqitor hakkibsan, what Abraham observed (Gen 19:28).

When Abraham looked down upon the scene of devastation, he observed smoke rising from the land of the plain, keqitor hakkibsan, "like smoke from a furnace." A kibsan is a pottery kiln (Wood 1992). Air passing through a pottery kiln does so by means of a forced draft resulting from the heating of the air. The smoke exiting from a kiln is forced out of the exit flue and pushed upward into the air. That is what Abraham observed—smoke from the land of the plain being forced upwards. The word used for smoke, qitor, is not the word used for smoke from an ordinary fire. Rather, it is a thick smoke, the smoke that comes from sacrifices. It is clear that something unnatural or extraordinary is recorded here.

The Biblical description, then, of the destruction was of burning material raining down from above, accompanied by an overturning of the cities and thick smoke being forced upward from the land. A rather apocalyptic scene, one that was forever etched in the minds of the ancient Israelites. The awful devastation and destruction that occurred that day became the example par excellence of God's judgment of sin.

Geological Investigations

At first reading it would seem that the destruction was caused by a volcanic eruption. When geologist Frederick G. Clapp visited the region in 1929 and again in 1934 he found that there was no evidence to indicate that lava or ash eruptions had taken place as recently as 4,000 years ago. He determined that topographic relationships render it probable that the last outburst in the vicinity took place thousands of years before Abraham's time (Clapp 1936a: 906; 1936b: 339–40). More recent assessments support that conclusion (Neev and Emery 1995: 147).

Clapp found that the region south of the Dead Sea is very unstable, being bordered by fault lines on the east and west. Earthquakes are common in this area. After surveying the geology of the district, Clapp concluded that combustible materials from the earth destroyed the cities. He found bitumen and petroleum in the area. Natural gas and sulfur, which normally accompany bitumen and petroleum, are also present. These combustible materials could have been forced from the earth by subterranean pressure brought about by an earthquake resulting from the shifting of the bounding faults (Clapp 1936a: 906; 1936b: 40). Geologists who have studied the area in recent times agree with Clapp's reconstruction (Harris and Beardow 1995: 360; Neev and Emery 1995: 13–14; 33, 37). If lightning or surface fires ignited these combustibles as they came spewing forth from the ground, it would indeed result in a holocaust such as described in Genesis 19. It is significant to note that both Bab edh-Dhra and Numeira lie at the edge of the plain, exactly on the eastern fault line!

Abraham, after having previously spoken with the Lord, knew of the impending judgment. Rising early in the morning he looked toward the Cities of the Plain from his vantage point at Hebron, high on the Mount Judah range west of the Dead Sea. Smoke rising from the plain south of the Dead Sea would have been readily visible from Hebron. In fact, mist rising from the Dead Sea can be seen almost any day from there. Abraham's eyewitness description fits the theory of a conflagration of petroleum products, for such a conflagration would result in a thick black smoke being forced into the sky by the heat and pressure of the burning materials shooting out of the fissure in the earth.

Evidence at the Town Sites

That an earthquake occurred at the time the cities were destroyed is clear from the work of geologist Jack Donahue of the University of Pittsburgh.

The earthquake caused either an uplift in the vicinity of the site or a downdropping of the rift valley to the west, resulting in a 50 m (164 ft) increase in elevation differential between the town site and Wadi Numeira to the north (Donahue 1984: 86; 1985: 137). It also caused a change in direction of the Wadi Numeira, which flowed south of the site during the period of occupation (Donahue 1984: 86, 88; 1985: 138). Heavy erosion following the event resulted in the loss of the north part of the settlement, including the north defensive wall (Donahue 1984:87;1985:138,139).

Evidence found at Numeira suggests the residents fled the town in haste. Most identifiable doorways from the latest phase of occupation had been deliberately blocked. This apparently was an attempt to strengthen the homes against damage. In addition, no valuable small finds were discovered nor were there foodstuffs in the storage facilities. On the other hand, large quantities of pottery were found on the floors of the houses, evidently too heavy and bulky to transport in the hasty evacuation. It appears the residents had some early warning, such as preliminary tremors, and did what they could to prepare. They shored up their houses, gathered up their valuables and as much food as they could carry, and fled their homes never to return (Coogan 1984: 80–81).

Evidence at the Bab edh-Dhra Cemetery

We have detailed the evidence that both town sites were destroyed by an overwhelming conflagration. Additional evidence from the cemetery at Bab edh-Dhra demonstrates that the destruction included areas outside the towns, thus involving "the entire plain" (Gn 19:25) and that it "came out of the heavens" (Gn 19:24).

Plan and section of Charnel House A22 at Bab edh-Dhra. The largest of the excavated charnel houses, or funerary buildings (51 x 26 ft), the structure was destroyed by fire at the same time the city was destroyed. The fire started on the roof and spread to the interior when the roof collapsed. This provides graphic evidence that "the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens" (Gn 19:24).

The destruction of the charnel houses at Bab edh-Dhra was brought about by the roofs first being set on fire, then collapsing, causing the interiors of the buildings to burn. This is entirely consistent with the Biblical description of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, when "the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens" (Gn 19:24).

Date of the Destruction

A rather precise date for the destruction of the Cities of the Plain can be worked out from the internal chronology of the Old Testament. Since the Lord told Abraham and Sarah about the coming birth of Isaac just prior to the destruction (Gn 18:10–14), the date of the destruction can be calculated based on the birth date of Isaac. If we assume a mid-15th century BC date for the Exodus, the date for the destruction would then be ca. 2070 BC. (8)

The archaeological date for the destruction of Bab edh-Dhra and Numeira, however, is considerably earlier than this. Rast gives the date for the end of the Early Bronze III period and the destruction of the cities as 2350 BC (1987: 47; 1992: 560). Schaub places the date slightly later at 2300 BC (1997: 249). (9) This leaves a discrepancy between the Biblical date and the archaeological date of 230–280 years. Does this mean that we cannot correlate the archaeological findings at Bab edh-Dhra and Numeira with the events described in the Bible?

In reality, the archaeological date for the end of the EB III period cannot be determined with any degree of certainty. Dating for the Bronze Age in Palestine is dependent upon synchronisms with the known history of Egypt. To date, we have no such synchronisms for the EB III period. There are a few correlations for the previous EB II period, suggesting that it was approximately contemporary with the Archaic Period (First and Second Dynasties) in Egypt, ca. 3100–2700 BC (Mazar 1990: 135; Ben-Tor 1992: 122; Kitchen 1996: 11). The dates for the Archaic Period only are known to within 200 years (Kitchen 1991: 202).

Time of Year When the Destruction Occurred

There is one additional correlation that can be made between the Biblical record and the archaeological findings—the time of year when the earthquake occurred. As pointed out by William Shea, the time can be set at late spring or early summer (1988: 21–22). When the angels visited Abraham the Lord announced,

"I will surely return to you in the spring, and Sarah your wife shall have a son"..."At the appointed time I will return to you, in the spring, and Sarah shall have a son" (Gn 18:10, 14, RSV).

If we assume that conception occurred approximately one month after the announcement, it would place the visit of the angels, and thus the destruction of the Cities of the Plain, in the late spring or early summer.

The well-preserved ruins at Numeira produced a number of surprises, including whole grapes. (11) During the 1977 season a large cache was found.

It is remarkable, for example, that the grapes in Locus 17 of SE 3/1 were preserved even with their outer skins, due perhaps to the burning material which collapsed over the area and sealed these items (Rast 1981: 43).

Although carbonized whole grapes have been reported from Salamis, Hesban and Jericho, the size of the Numeira hoard, which consisted of over 700 whole grapes, is very uncommon (McCreery 1981: 168).

The fact that the grapes were intact indicates that they were freshly harvested. In the hot climate of the Dead Sea valley the harvesting of grapes occurs earlier than other parts of the country—in the late spring or early summer. In the 1981 season more grapes were found, prompting the excavator to comment on the chronological implications:

The infrequent small finds included...more whole carbonized grapes with the stems attached and what preliminary analysis indicates were carbonized watermelon seeds (both evidence for dating the destruction of the site to late spring) (Coogan 1984:77).

Conclusion

When the archaeological, geographical and epigraphic evidence is reviewed in detail, it is clear that the infamous cities of Sodom and Gomorrah have now been found. What is more, this evidence demonstrates that the Bible provides an accurate eyewitness account of events that occurred southeast of the Dead Sea over 4,000 years ago.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/04/16/The-Discovery-of-the-Sin-Cities-of-Sodom-and-Gomorrah.aspx

Edited August 4, 2011 by betsy

[M.Dancer]

FACT: ARCHEOLOGY SHOWS EVIDENCE THAT THE BIBLE PROVIDES AN ACCURATE EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT OF EVENTS THAT OCCURRED SOUTHEAST OF THE DEAD SEA OVER 4,000 YEARS AGO.

spx

And now the sane version....

Sodom and Gomorrah Update Volume 49 Number 4, July/August 1996

by Andrew L. Slayman

Two geologists think they know how the infamous biblical cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Graham Harris and Tony Beardow argue in the Quarterly Journal of Engineering Geology that the land near the Dead Sea on which the cities may have stood literally liquefied in an earthquake, swallowing them up ca. 1900 B.C. A similar event, in which loosely packed, waterlogged soils liquefy under seismic force, destroyed an area of nearly 30,000 square miles in China in 1920. Harris and Beardow admit that the "analysis of a past earthquake event, especially one for which there is a lack of data, or even credible eyewitness accounts, is difficult," particularly "when the event is speculative and occurred in the dawn of history." But they suggest that a tidal wave caused by the earthquake might have stranded a large block of salt on shore, inspiring the tale that Lot's wife, ignoring God's command not to look back at the burning cities, was turned into a pillar of salt. Few scholars are likely to believe this hypothesis. "This is Noah's Ark stuff," says ARCHAEOLOGY Contributing Editor Neil Asher Silberman. "The real challenge for biblical archaeologists today is not to search for long-lost cities, but to understand why the ancient Israelites formulated these powerful myths."

http://www.archaeology.org/9607/newsbriefs/sodom.html

[Oleg Bach]

I do!

Sheldon is hilarious.

Bazinga!

REAL big BANG - sounds like creation to me - like a vibration - it explodes from nothing - expands over trillions of years then here comes the big crunch as it contracts...then boom - out it goes again - maybe creation has happened a trillion times?

[eyeball]

"The real challenge for biblical archaeologists today is not to search for long-lost cities, but to understand why the ancient Israelites formulated these powerful myths."

Maybe...this line of research would probably just implicate modern Israelites in some goofy conspiracy theory, not to mention stir up a bunch of excitable Christians.

Why not just leave this sleeping dog alone?

[betsy]

And now the sane version....

http://www.archaeology.org/9607/newsbriefs/sodom.html

Sane? You mean the more palatable version to you.

But they suggest that a tidal wave caused by the earthquake might have stranded a large block of salt on shore, inspiring the tale that Lot's wife, ignoring God's command not to look back at the burning cities, was turned into a pillar of salt. Few scholars are likely to believe this hypothesis. "This is Noah's Ark stuff," says ARCHAEOLOGY Contributing Editor Neil Asher Silberman.

Your quote is just speculative. Nothing to substantiate their speculations.

"The real challenge for biblical archaeologists today is not to search for long-lost cities, but to understand why the ancient Israelites formulated these powerful myths."

Come again?

They don't want the ancient lost-cities specifically mentioned in the Bible to get discovered...... so they can keep saying they're all just myths!

Who wrote that idiotic statement????

Edited August 4, 2011 by betsy

[M.Dancer]

They don't want the ancient lost-cities specifically mentioned in the Bible to get discovered...... so they can keep saying they're all just myths!

Who wrote that idiotic statement????

You seem to forget, they didn't find Sodom or Gomorrah...they found two cities whose destruction pre-date the mythic account.

You would be equally right to suggest they had found Atlantis

[betsy]

"The real challenge for biblical archaeologists today is not to search for long-lost cities, but to understand why the ancient Israelites formulated these powerful myths."

Come again?

They don't want the ancient lost-cities specifically mentioned in the Bible to get discovered...... so they can keep saying they're all just myths!

Who wrote that idiotic statement????

At the rate archeology is digging up these ancient cities that support various Biblical narratives.....that kind of response from new atheists and secularists is not surprising.

I came upon an article not too long ago mentioning a non-believing archeologist complaining about a Christian archeologist for using the Bible as a guide!

Like as if it matters who or what the guide is. As long as you discover....why would anyone care if the pointing arrow came from the Bible?

[betsy]

You seem to forget, they didn't find Sodom or Gomorrah...they found two cities whose destruction pre-date the mythic account.

You would be equally right to suggest they had found Atlantis

For one thing, my source is the article by archeologist Bryant Wood, which gave a very detailed explanation as to all the evidences. Furthermore, his article cited several other references.

Your source does not offer much other than speculation.

If it's such a fact-busting news - something that refutes mine - surely there must be tons of other information for gleeful atheists to use.

Besides, your source also gave quite an eye-rolling contradictory statement - discovering ancient cities and myths - that highly questions your source.

There are scientists, and then there are pseudo-scientists you know. The same goes for archeologists.

So, offer some other credible source to back you up.

Edited August 4, 2011 by betsy

[M.Dancer]

There are scientists, and then there are pseudo-scientists you know. The same goes for archeologists.

Yes...how's the hunt for the ark working for you?

[betsy]

Yes...how's the hunt for the ark working for you?

Why, does Vishnu and Shiva have an ark too?

[M.Dancer]

Why, does Vishnu and Shiva have an ark too?

If they do, it is every bit as real as noah's

[betsy]

If they do, it is every bit as real as noah's

Actually, if I'm not mistaken there's an archeological dig going on which they say might be Noah's Ark, or something related to it. I don't know.....we have to wait and see I guess.

Keep your fingers crossed. If it turns out to be proof on our ark, then there's hope for yours.

Edited August 4, 2011 by betsy

[M.Dancer]

Actually, if I'm not mistaken there's an archeological dig going on which they say might be Noah's Ark, or something related to it. I don't know.....we have to wait and see I guess.

Keep your fingers crossed. If it turns out to be proof on our ark, then there's hope for yours.

There have been dozens of expeditions in the last 30 years..all led by christians...they have found dozens of piles of rocks.

[betsy]

There have been dozens of expeditions in the last 30 years..all led by christians...they have found dozens of piles of rocks.

And?

What about the dozens that has been proven true?

Surely, of all people you should be the very last one to be critical about those achievements - considering your version of origin (including evolution) has yet to find its first proven irrefutable evidence!

Several contortions (not to mention hoaxes and frauds and unsubstantiated claims) to prop up evolution - all led by atheist evolutionists!

Your camp hasn't even given not a single irrefutable one! And you had more than a century to do so.

Well MDancer....I seem to get this message that - like the archeologist you quoted above - you don't seem to be too happy about digging with the Bible in hand? Even though the Bible-and-spade method has given out archeological results! Wanna loosen your collar?

Edited August 5, 2011 by betsy

[M.Dancer]

And?

What about the dozens that has been proven true?

What? arks?

Surely, of all people you should be the very last one to be critical about those achievements - considering your version of origin (including evolution) has yet to find its first proven unrefutable evidence!

You are in discontent mode....there is plenty of evidence for evolution....none for god murdering the inhabitants of sodom...

Well MDancer....I seem to get this message that - like the archeologist you quoted above - you don't seem to be too happy about digging with the Bible in hand? Even though they're giving out archeological results! Wanna loosen your collar?

Untrue...using ancient texts is a long and worthy tradition...the found Illium that way, thus proving the existence of Zeus...or...

Did they find Illium and only illium, the miracles of Zues? Well, that is the job of archaeologist to discover why the ancient Hellenes made up the myths....

I mean...I am all for finding eden....

[betsy]

What? arks?

Oh. Arks.

Well, be patient. Wait and see.....who knows.

If no ark is ever found.....so? What's the problem?

You seem to have a lot riding on this ark...

Edited August 5, 2011 by betsy

[CANADIEN]

From Betsy's dictionary:

Proof: Anything that matches Betsy's viewpoint

Speculation: Anything else

[Oleg Bach]

What? arks?

You are in discontent mode....there is plenty of evidence for evolution....none for god murdering the inhabitants of sodom...

Untrue...using ancient texts is a long and worthy tradition...the found Illium that way, thus proving the existence of Zeus...or...

Did they find Illium and only illium, the miracles of Zues? Well, that is the job of archaeologist to discover why the ancient Hellenes made up the myths....

I mean...I am all for finding eden....

We are in EDEN....just needs some grooming and good stewardship.

[CANADIEN]

From a sign outside the Lennoxville, Quebec United Church:

"Taking the Bible seriously, not litterally".

Amen to that.

Edited August 8, 2011 by CANADIEN

[cybercoma]

From a sign outside the Lennoxville, Quebec United Church:

"Taking the Bible seriously, not litterally".

Amen to that.

I hope it has the spelling mistake on the sign too.

[Oleg Bach]

From a sign outside the Lennoxville, Quebec United Church:

"Taking the Bible seriously, not litterally".

Amen to that.

I was an uneducated man and I wanted to know how our society formed - so I thought to myself...You must understand the belief and value system and where it came from historically - So I studied the New Testiment for a couple of years - a serious study with the scholarly assistance of some fine books to cross reference...and I learned - that no piece of literature can be taken literally - that you have to use your God given inquisitive brain to sort out the bull shit from the bull rushes..It was very userful - and it was part of my self educating process - but I am not a fundamentalist...because some of the things in the Bible were just plain bad or were seen by myself as political and not spiritual - so I cherry picked the good fruit and did not consume the rotten stuff.

[CANADIEN]

I hope it has the spelling mistake on the sign too.

LOL Not that I Know

[Bonam]

REAL big BANG - sounds like creation to me - like a vibration - it explodes from nothing - expands over trillions of years then here comes the big crunch as it contracts...then boom - out it goes again - maybe creation has happened a trillion times?

Our best cosmological understanding of the universe so far suggests that there will not, in fact, ever be a big crunch. There is not enough mass in the universe for the gravitational attraction to be strong enough to pull everything back together. Instead, it is thought that the universe will continue to expand forever, with galactic superclusters becoming spread further and further apart from each other in an ever expanding gulf of empty space.

[Saipan]

Into where they will expand?

[betsy]

FACT: MODERN WESTERN SCIENCE WAS FOUNDED UPON JUDEO-CHRISTIAN PRESUPPOSITIONAL FOUNDATIONS FROM THE BIBLE.

Excerpt from: Science Facts Confirm the Bible

by R. Totten, M.Div - © 2000

In popular opinion, there has long been a widespread impression that science and the scientific method has always been at odds with the Biblical Worldview --always needing to fight against "religious ignorance." Though there have been many instances of science in conflict with religion around the world, when it comes to the Judeo-Christian Theistic worldview, that general impression is actually far from the truth. In reality, modern Western science was founded upon Judeo-Christian presuppositional foundations from the Bible. And whatsmore, the scientific method today --with an emphasis on logical experimenation and mathematical formulation-- still operates on those assumptions.

In their book, The Soul of Science: Christian Faith and Natural Philosophy (Crossway,'94), Nancy Pearcey and Charles Thaxton explain how, in all the history of mankind, the modern scientific method and philosophy originated in only one culture (& religious worldview), and that is: --in Christianized Western Europe.

In balance, however, Pearcey and Thaxton note that it is true that several ancient cultures --such as the Arabs (along with India's mathematics), the Egyptians and Chinese-- did come up earlier with more advanced levels of practical technology, mathematics and learning than medieval Europe did, but still, because of their worldviews, those more technically advanced cultures did not come up with "modern science as a systematic, self-correcting discipline" (p.21, my emphasis). --Also, it should be remembered that the various technological advancements of Islamic culture developed within the worldview of the Quran, which was written down after Mohammed engaged in extensive discussions about the Bible with both Jews and Christians as he developed his theology and worldview, and so, much of the biblical worldview was foundational to the Quran, which benefited Islamics.

In agreement with this, science writer Loren Eiseley (a non-Christian) maintains that the most curious thing about the modern scientific method and philosophy, is that mankind has come up with it at all, because it is not "natural" to mankind. Worship of nature comes more naturally to people, as well as superstition.

--In contrast, however, science "demands some kind of unique soil in which to flourish," says Eiseley, and he (somewhat reluctantly) identifies that soil as "the Christian world which finally gave birth in a clear, articulate fashion to the experimental method of science itself" (Darwin's Century, '61, p.62, my emphasis). Up through the middle ages and until the 1800s, modern science (and its method) was shaped and developed largely by discussions about nature among Bible-believing Christians, such as Buridan, Copernicus, Kepler, Paracelsus, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Linnaeus and Cuvier. -- (See lists of great scientists and inventors below).

So, why did modern science arise only out of Western Europe's Judeo-Christian worldview?

Pearcey and Thaxton explain that the reason is because only that worldview of the Bible provided the key presuppositions required for modern science and its methods :

1. Nature is Real, not Imaginary

The Bible speaks of nature and the universe as being real. God created them, and they are real entities. --This point may seem too obvious to bring up, but a few worldviews consider material things to be unreal or imaginary. For instance, Eastern Thought (esp. much of Hinduism and Buddhism) teaches that any distinct object (such as a rock, a person or a planet) is an illusion ("maya"). Small wonder that science did not grow out of such worldviews, because, obviously it would be a nonsensical waste of time to study and analyze an illusion.

However, since the biblical view sees the things of nature as realities, they are therefore possible objects of study and understanding.

2. Nature is a "Thing", not a God

According to Biblical teaching, there is nothing in the natural created order which is part of God himself. This being true, the scientist with a biblical worldview may study and use all of nature in scientific and technological endeavors without "attacking" God's own being.

Contrast this to Eastern religions, which are basically all pantheistic or polytheistic worldviews, where anything and possibly everything may be a god or a part of god (or the "One"). --Or compare the biblical view to pagan Animism which believes that all natural things --both animate and inanimate (such as rocks, plants, animals, thunder or planets)-- are indwelt and "animated" by some form of spiritual and divine life-forces within them, which shape all reality. --In such worldviews, a person conducting science might be (for example) dissecting a god or its body, which would be an horribly impious offense of sacrilege. Such views undoubtedly destroyed the possibility of modern science in the cultures which held them.

--In contrast, the Bible teaches that the universe and the natural order is God's creation... objects and forces, not part of God himself. Therefore, says science historian R. Hooykaas, Judeo-Christianity "un-deified" nature, and this was an essential pre-condition for the endeavor of modern science to exist.

3. Nature is Worth Studying

The Bible speaks of the creation as being "good", and so, it is not only real, but it is worth studying; There is value in understanding nature. Material things may be used for the benefit of man (and to the glory of God), so, science can be a worthwhile endeavor.

4. Nature is Unified and Orderly

The sovereign God of the Bible is eternally dependable and orderly in his own character, and therefore, Christians expected nature and the universe to exhibit unified dependable "laws" of behavior. Historian Carl Becker writes that the concept of "natural law" was not derived from observations of nature; rather, it was first hypothesized from belief in the Biblical God before observations of nature confirmed it. --Today, many people take this point for granted, but A.R. Hall points out that both the ancient Western and Asian worlds had no concept of "natural law," until it finally came about from Christians in the Middle Ages, and Hall says that it constituted "a notable departure" from anything that had preceeded it.

5. The Natural Order is Mathematically Precise

Science historians have also traced this idea to the Biblical teaching on creation. Christians figured that the almighty God of the Bible created the universe "ex nihilo," meaning "out of nothing," and therefore he had complete control over the end result, which the orderly Creator would make into some sort of precise and logical structure. This is why Rene Descartes said the mathematical laws scientists looked for were "legislated" by God in the same way a king makes laws in his kingdom. R.G. Collingwood writes, "The possibility of an applied mathematics is an expression, in terms of natural science, of the Christian belief that nature is the creation of an omnipotent God" (An Essay on Metaphysics, '72, p.253).

By contrast, for example, the Greeks expected a good amount of imprecision and "fuzziness" in nature, because their concept of a creator (demiurge) was an inferior deity who had to "struggle" against the stubborn properties of matter. Greeks thought, therefore, that nothing in the physical world could be described with exact precision, by mathematically precise concepts. In addition, they thought the material world was somewhat evil and disorderly, ---and so, many historians believe these are the major reasons why the ancient Greeks never developed anything like an experimental scientific method using empirical facts.

6. Human Minds can Discover and Understand the Natural Order

The Bible teaches that man is made "in the image of God," which means (among other things) that man is personal, creative and imaginative, and able to "step back" (transcend) and rationally analyze and develop knowledge about many realities of nature and existence.

But in contrast, in his book, The Grand Tradition ('69), J. Needham --an expert on Chinese culture-- maintains that the Chinese never developed modern analytical science, because they did not think there existed either a definite understandable order in nature, nor the human ability to figure it out. To the Chinese, whatever order did exist in nature "was not an order ordained by a rational personal being, and hence there was no guarantee that other rational personal beings would be able to spell out ...laws which he had previously formulated" (p.327).

So, the charge that the Bible and Judeo-Christianity is hostile to science, is basically a completely inaccurate notion ...which was a deceptive fiction, whatsmore. In fact, in his book The Heavenly City of the Eighteenth-Century Philosophers, Carl Becker shows that Enlightenment philosophers such as Voltaire, Condorcet, Hume, Montesquieu and Gibbon intentionally endeavored to discredit Christianity by portraying it as an "enemy" of science. Likewise, in the 1800s, A. Comte and A. White carefully combed through Western history for examples of Christians who resisted change in scientific concepts. ---However, these "triumphalist" writers were actually not being honest enough to bring out that almost all such resistance was from "status quo" science, and that change in scientific views often meets resistance during any period of history. But despite such ideological efforts at deception, the facts of science history are now dismantling these false stereotypes of "anti-scientific" Christianity.

Although people from all major non-biblical worldviews employ modern scientific methodology today, those people have the framework of the worldview of Biblical truth to thank for this original connection to reality. ---However, if non-biblical worldviews and philosophies take over, this would create a threat to good science.

Pearcey and Thaxton sum it up: "The Christian religion ...has motivated, sanctioned, and shaped large portions of the Western scientific heritage. Modern Christians ought to drink deeply at the well of historical precedent. If we do, we will never feel intimidated by positivists and others who deny that religion has any role in genuine scholarship. In the broad scope of history, that claim is itself a temporary aberation ---a mere blip on the screen, already beginning to fade" (p.248).

Christians can confidently obey the Lord's call to.... "demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" (2Cor. 10:5).

http://worldview3.50webs.com/scientmethod.html

Edited August 14, 2011 by betsy