The Bible

[dre]

We don't see eye-to-eye because you are responding as an atheist and I am responding as a Christian. I guess it must be confusing for atheists to grasp the concept of God (Creator who created everything) who was never created but has always existed.

I guess it wasn't properly read and edited.

But the point he/she's trying to make is there.

So how do you think the universe came to be here?

I dunno! But I do know that if we want to find out, theres no way to do it without a little elbow grease. We need to keep studying it.

Your approach seems to be to simply accept what some people wrote down 3000 years ago. Or I guess we could just accept what the ancient greeks thought, or the sumerians, or zoroestrians. Maybe the pagans or mythraists got it "just right"!. Or maybe it was the ancient egyptians that knew the truth... or the Mayans or the Tolteks.

Its just too damn lazy for me.

[betsy]

Even if i knew i wouldn't tell you. I'd write a best-selling book about it and you'd have to pay to find out. I'd make a fortune, just like God. (yes, God is getting royalty cheques from Bible sales, he's the master capitalist).

Is that all you can throw at the Bible?

Book-royalty cheques?

Well at least we're not just paying for and lapping up silly theories about creation/evolution!

Modern science is proving we're getting exactly what we paid for!

Edited May 17, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

I dunno! But I do know that if we want to find out, theres no way to do it without a little elbow grease. We need to keep studying it.

Your approach seems to be to simply accept what some people wrote down 3000 years ago.

I've explained the uniqueness of the Bible. See my response to Scouter Jim.

Betsy:

You dismissed my assertion above as to why the Bible is unique:

All through the ages, its message hardly changed, if it ever did at all - maintaining its fluidity and continuity from the time of Abraham to the last Apostle who wrote his entry.

We're talking so many centuries and generations between the Old Testament and the New Testament alone!

The Bible is not only very much around right now - it's also consistently the best-selling book!

Furthermore, we're seeing that science is supporting what the Bible said.....or should I say, the Bible is showing us that science has just discovered what the Bible has been saying all along!

Furthermore, I've listed down science-proven facts which are in the Bible (and I am not through yet). With my researching of facts, I'd say I'm doing some elbow-greasing here. Actually as I've said in the OP, I'm learning too as I go along.

Or I guess we could just accept what the ancient greeks thought, or the sumerians, or zoroestrians. Maybe the pagans or mythraists got it "just right"!. Or maybe it was the ancient egyptians that knew the truth... or the Mayans or the Tolteks.

I throw to you the same challenge I've thrown to Scouter. Cite one ancient religion book (similar to the Bible) that speaks of creation/cosmology that has as many science-proven facts in it!

If you're still going to throw that same-old tired line about its similarities with other religion or belief - knowing what you know now, so far - then you better back it up with something! Otherwise it's just all hot air, knee-jerk reaction, irrational resistance, or to borrow WIP's term, pure "bombast."

Its just too damn lazy for me.

You've mentioned that if we do want to find out we need some elbow-greasing. I assume that you too want to find out.

Are you reading and studying the Bible?

Edited May 17, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

FACT: PROPHECIES HAVE COME TRUE!

Some of the passages that's already been posted (and proven by science)....it can be said that they're prophetic in that they were proven true. There are other specific prophecies that will be dealt with in this topic.

For those of you who keeps comparing the Bible (God) to other gods/faith/beliefs.....it's best that you take note of this passage from Isaiah.

I can't help but feel that God seems to be joining this discussion (through the Bible).....for how many passages have appropriately given replies - arguments and rebuttals in this topic. And this is His reply to those who bring up comparisons with other gods/beliefs.

I have boldened the interesting verses. This is about the gods of Babylon:

ISAIAH 46: 5-13

5 “With whom will you compare me or count me equal?

To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?

6 Some pour out gold from their bags

and weigh out silver on the scales;

they hire a goldsmith to make it into a god,

and they bow down and worship it.

7 They lift it to their shoulders and carry it;

they set it up in its place, and there it stands.

From that spot it cannot move.

Even though someone cries out to it, it cannot answer;

it cannot save them from their troubles.

8 “Remember this, keep it in mind,

take it to heart, you rebels.

9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;

I am God, and there is no other;

I am God, and there is none like me.

10 I make known the end from the beginning,

from ancient times, what is still to come.

I say, ‘My purpose will stand,

and I will do all that I please.’

11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;

from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.

What I have said, that I will bring about;

what I have planned, that I will do.

12 Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted,

you who are now far from my righteousness.

13 I am bringing my righteousness near,

it is not far away;

and my salvation will not be delayed.

I will grant salvation to Zion,

my splendor to Israel.

The rhetorical question, to whom will you liken me? implies the obvious answer - no one!

His uniqueness is found in His declaration:

I make known the end from the beginning,

from ancient times, what is still to come.

God's singular distinctiveness is His ability to predict the future with complete accuracy!

Since He alone knows the future, in the timetable of God all things are proceeding on schedule.

Edited May 18, 2011 by betsy

[cybercoma]

I'm not. Are you?

Yes, I'm sure. You see, scientists publish their findings in these things called Academic Journals. Anyone can read them, see how they came to their conclusions and challenge them if they are wrong.

[GostHacked]

What makes you so sure?

Because scientists are studying the field.

Or The Itself did it, and He was always here

Your posting style leaves something to be desired.

[Saipan]

I dunno! But I do know that if we want to find out, theres no way to do it without a little elbow grease. We need to keep studying it.

Always good to study. But some are as much waste of time as explaining ship to shore radio communication to Christopher Columbus.

Ovezealous efforts leads to silly conclusions like "machines heavier than air cannot fly".

[Saipan]

Because scientists are studying the field.

That doesn't guarantee any aswers. 'Specially if they use the same old erroneous method.

Your posting style leaves something to be desired.

Yes. Comfortable answers.

[cybercoma]

That doesn't guarantee any aswers. 'Specially if they use the same old erroneous method.

As opposed to making up an answer out of thin air and commanding everyone to just believe it or suffer for all of eternity if they don't?

[Saipan]

As opposed to making up an answer out of thin air and commanding everyone to just believe it or suffer for all of eternity if they don't?

Yes, exactly same crap

[scouterjim]

I have wondered for a long time why it was that if God is so omnipotent, why did He reveal His existance to only a small group of people in a backwater desert country, and not ALL the world? If He wants (needs?) to be worshipped, one would think He would let EVERYBODY know He exists.

[DogOnPorch]

I have wondered for a long time why it was that if God is so omnipotent, why did He reveal His existance to only a small group of people in a backwater desert country, and not ALL the world? If He wants (needs?) to be worshipped, one would think He would let EVERYBODY know He exists.

What do you mean? Zeus pretty much let you know he is around in no uncertain terms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emCcbawLVx4

See?

[scouterjim]

What do you mean? Zeus pretty much let you know he is around in no uncertain terms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emCcbawLVx4

See?

Zeus? Stop saying that. You will get Odin pissed off!

[DogOnPorch]

Zeus? Stop saying that. You will get Odin pissed off!

Heh...more 'evidence' can be produced re: Zeus's existence than yer Holy Trinity. Best hedge our bets...

[cybercoma]

Yes, exactly same crap

Oh, I see! You're absolutely clueless about the scientific method.

[scouterjim]

Heh...more 'evidence' can be produced re: Zeus's existence than yer Holy Trinity. Best hedge our bets...

Which would you prefer? Heaven, where you will sit on a cloud for eternity, plucking a harp and "singing praises to the Lord", or Valhalla, where it is partying, boozing and womanizing every night for eternity? Me? Valhalla, thank you.

[DogOnPorch]

Which would you prefer? Heaven, where you will sit on a cloud for eternity, plucking a harp and "singing praises to the Lord", or Valhalla, where it is partying, boozing and womanizing every night for eternity? Me? Valhalla, thank you.

Well...the wife might pick another post-life vacation spot.

[Saipan]

Oh, I see! You're absolutely clueless about the scientific method.

So what happen to mammoths?

[betsy]

FACT:

EXPANDING UNIVERSE: Science uses the word, "STRETCHING/STRETCHES/STRETCHED!"

So once again, science proves that The Bible clearly described what science had only recently discovered. The Bible used the exact term, "STRETCHED/STRETCHES," in the right context pertaining to creation or design - the same term now being used by science!

Below are quotes from several science sources.

If the universe is expanding what is it expanding into? It would have to expand into even more universe. I understand that the red spectra indicates that things are moving away from us but that is drifting not expanding, right? If you could help me to understand this, it would be appreciated. Thank you for your time.

This is a very good question which is not at all easy to give a satisfactory answer to! The first time I tried to write an answer to this, we got so many follow-up questions from people who were still confused that I decided to try to answer it again, this time much more comprehensively. The long explanation is below. However, if you just want a short answer, I'll say this: if the universe is infinitely big, then the answer is simply that it isn't expanding into anything; instead, what is happening is that every region of the universe, every distance between every pair of galaxies, is being "stretched", but the overall size of the universe was infinitely big to begin with and continues to remain infinitely big as time goes on, so the universe's size doesn't change, and therefore it doesn't expand into anything.

Let me begin by saying that "expanding" isn't really the best word to describe what is happening to the universe, although that is the word that is often used - a word choice which I think leads to a lot of unnecessary confusion regarding what is already a difficult topic! A more accurate word for what the universe is doing might be "stretching".

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274

The theory which follows in this text stems from the idea that the notion of space curvature is better understood as "stretched space", and that it is the exact same property responsible for the expansion of the Universe.

http://www.science27.com/english/introduction1.html

Our modern ideas of space (and time) come from none other than Albert Einstein. The good Dr. Einstein's Theory of Relativity is a potent set of physics ideas that gives us a completely new view of the nature of space. It also turns out to be the principal piece of physics needed for cosmology. Einstein, in all his genius, recognized that Space was not just emptiness but had its own separate reality. Space and time are a kind of "fabric" of reality and like any fabric they can stretch, bend and even fold. Yes, this is a completely freaky idea but let us just accept for now and see where we can go with it in terms of cosmology.

One of the first things Einstein did after he finished his theory of relativity was start thinking about space, time and the Universe as a whole. He knew that all the beautiful equations he derived could describe the stretching of the entirety of space. Now that is certainly a wild idea. There are actually equations that can describe the stretching, the shape, of all space. After years of working on the problem, Einstein and other scientists found that this cosmological stretching of space and time would determine how the physics of the entire Universe plays out.

http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/uspeak/feb_02_uspeak.mhtml

When general relativity is applied to the Universe as a whole, it turns out that space should be either stretching or contracting. In 1929, the astronomer Edwin Hubble observed that distant galaxies are all moving away from the Earth. He concluded that the Universe is expanding. As space stretches, galaxies are pulled away from one another and the farther two galaxies are apart the faster they move away from each other. The standard analogy is that of a balloon with dots on it:

Since Hubble's initial findings, many observations have confirmed that the Universe is expanding. The fractional speed of stretching is known as the Hubble expansion rate.

http://www.jupiterscientific.org/sciinfo/newcosmology.html

According to science, the universe is expanding, or "stretching out." There are at least 11 passages in the Bible written by five different authors that talked about God "stretching out the heavens," and all were made in the context of creation. These are all taken from the New International Version.

Zeccheraih 12:1

1 A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel.

The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares:

Jeremiah 10:12 (and also Jer 51:15)

12 But God made the earth by his power;

he founded the world by his wisdom

and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.

Psalm 104:2

2 The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment;

he stretches out the heavens like a tent

Job 9:8

8 He alone stretches out the heavens

and treads on the waves of the sea.

Isaiah 40:21-22

21 Do you not know?

Have you not heard?

Has it not been told you from the beginning?

Have you not understood since the earth was founded?

22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,

and its people are like grasshoppers.

He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,

and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Isaiah 42:5

5 This is what God the LORD says—

the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,

who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,

who gives breath to its people,

and life to those who walk on it:

Isaiah 44:24

24 “This is what the LORD says—

your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:

I am the LORD,

the Maker of all things,

who stretches out the heavens,

who spreads out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 45:12

12 It is I who made the earth

and created mankind on it.

My own hands stretched out the heavens;

I marshaled their starry hosts.

Isaiah 48:12-13

12 “Listen to me, Jacob,

Israel, whom I have called:

I am he;

I am the first and I am the last.

13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,

and my right hand spread out the heavens;

when I summon them,

they all stand up together.

Isaiah 51:12-13

12 “I, even I, am he who comforts you.

Who are you that you fear mere mortals,

human beings who are but grass,

13 that you forget the LORD your Maker,

who stretches out the heavens

and who lays the foundations of the earth,

that you live in constant terror every day

because of the wrath of the oppressor,

who is bent on destruction?

For where is the wrath of the oppressor?

For that line repeated at least 11 times , and in the right context.....truly, only the Designer could've known about that!

Edited May 18, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

FACT: THE BIBLE GIVES AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION BY THE WORD "STRETCH!"

Let me begin by saying that "expanding" isn't really the best word to describe what is happening to the universe, although that is the word that is often used - a word choice which I think leads to a lot of unnecessary confusion regarding what is already a difficult topic!

A more accurate word for what the universe is doing might be "stretching".

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274

In light of these accurate terminology used in the Bible (at least 11 times!), used in the right context pertaining to and/or to describe creation - which I'm almost sure evolutionists scientists scoff at as merely "coincidental - there is truly a basis for the supernatural in explaining our beginning!

That indeed, the theory of an Intelligent Designer is very much valid!

That it points so blatantly at the Judeo-Christian God as the Intelligent Designer of this universe is not just a mere theory, but rather a statement of truth!

How can the Bible know of such things thousands of years ago.....which science only discovered in 1929?

They want empirical evidence? Wasn't it through observations that it's been discovered the universe is stretching?

Well it's backed by empirical evidence! Observable!

One would think that science's quest for knowledge and understanding would make it to consider the Bible - or at least consider the Intelligent Design theory. Instead they choose to dismiss it and exclude it!

And yet they fumble, and go through all sorts of contortions -manipulating- trying to fill up gaps to make their failed theories right!

Evolutionist scientists are not driven by their sincere desire for knowledge and understanding. Some are driven by mere egos! Pride! Some by their abhorrence of religion. But whatever it is that drives them...it is clear that they're not up to the challenge of coming face-to-face with the supernatural.

They remain in their little box, so secure within its walls....so afraid to venture out.

Fools.

Edited May 18, 2011 by betsy

[scouterjim]

FACT: THE BIBLE GIVES AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION BY THE WORD "STRETCH!"

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274

In light of these accurate terminology used in the Bible (at least 11 times!), used in the right context pertaining to and/or to describe creation - which I'm almost sure evolutionists scientists scoff at as merely "coincidental - there is truly a basis for the supernatural in explaining our beginning!

That indeed, the theory of an Intelligent Designer is very much valid!

That it points so blatantly at the Judeo-Christian God as the Intelligent Designer of this universe is not just a mere theory, but rather a statement of truth!

How can the Bible know of such things thousands of years ago.....which science only discovered in 1929?

They want empirical evidence? Wasn't it through observations that it's been discovered the universe is stretching?

Well it's backed by empirical evidence! Observable!

One would think that science's quest for knowledge and understanding would make it to consider the Bible - or at least consider the Intelligent Design theory. Instead they choose to dismiss it and exclude it!

And yet they fumble, and go through all sorts of contortions -manipulating- trying to fill up gaps to make their failed theories right!

Evolutionist scientists are not driven by their sincere desire for knowledge and understanding. Some are driven by mere egos! Pride! Some by their abhorrence of religion. But whatever it is that drives them...it is clear that they're not up to the challenge of coming face-to-face with the supernatural.

They remain in their little box, so secure within its walls....so afraid to venture out.

Fools.

I am still waiting for you to post FACTS.

[betsy]

I am still waiting for you to post FACTS.

I guess this means you can't back up your own so-called factual claim. You can't cite not even one single ancient book similar to the Bible that's been proven by science!

[DogOnPorch]

The Iliad.

[Jack Weber]

The Iliad.

And I counter with The Book of Josephus....

[DogOnPorch]

And I counter with The Book of Josephus....

The Bible is full of historic mythology...not so much with the science as betsy would have us believe.