Israel's march to the Dark Ages

[Post To The Left]

In the now iconic image of Obama looking on as the Osama operation went down it appears that Israeli newspapers have edited out Hilary Clinton, and another women present, so as to not offend the more conservative members of Jewish society. This rewriting of history for religious reasons just shows how far Israel has slipped on a slope that ends with Israel becoming a fundamentalist theocratic state.

More and more Israeli's are seeing their rights cracked down upon largely due to harsh Jewish extremist groups and the unique Israeli political system that gives ultra-conservative religious parties King-Maker status and such immense power. One such conservative group are the Orthodox Jews. With their high birth rates, often over 10 children to a family, and high retention rates of its members the percentage of extremist groups seeking to crack down on Israeli freedoms is rising. The retention rate of Children of Orthodox parents is quite high due to the total seclusion of Orthodox Jews from Israeli society. Those few who were able to escape Fundamentalist Judaism to freedom, still have had a tough go at maintaining their new found liberties. According to this BBC report "Rabbi Noson Weisz has only known four or five cases of people leaving in three decades of work."

While the birthrates of secular Jews fall every year the explosive growth of Jewish extremists threatens Israel's way of life. Israel’s ultra-Orthodox population refuse to work, and refuse to fight in the army. 60% to 70% of fundamentalist Jews prefer to leach off the state because their rabbis told them to stay at home, study the bible and make babies.

In addition to eliminating women from public life, as shown even by editing out pictures of women in newspapers, Jewish religious leaders are slowly restricting how people can dress, act and function in society. Large sections of Israel have area where women are forced to cover-up, men wear beards and other oppressive measures. Due to the high birth-rate of Orthodox Jews these Areas will expand exponentially. Already Jewish groups are seeking to purify their race by preventing mixed marriages. During negotiations with the Palestinians they also seek to expunge all non-Jews from Israel.

As those practicing extremist Judaism grows how long do you think it will take before Israel turns into a Jewish theocratic state like say Iran. Where a council of rabbis control what can be published in newspapers, what people can wear, etc?

[DogOnPorch]

Der Tzitung is an American newspaper...not Israeli. NYC, in fact.

[Scotty]

Der Tzitung is an American newspaper...not Israeli. NYC, in fact.

Doesn't change the unfortunate facts of what he's saying. Israel is ultimately doomed if the demographics continue as they are.

And how is it that Israel doesn't do something about this? It's called Proportional Representation. It results in constant minority governments, and the major parties desperate to cut deals with all those little extremist religious parties. If Israel has a FPP system they'd have a chance at a strong government which could tell the religious wackos where to get off.

[Shady]

As those practicing extremist Judaism grows how long do you think it will take before Israel turns into a Jewish theocratic state like say Iran. Where a council of rabbis control what can be published in newspapers, what people can wear, etc?

You mean how long before they become more like Muslims?

[DogOnPorch]

Doesn't change the unfortunate facts of what he's saying. Israel is ultimately doomed if the demographics continue as they are.

And how is it that Israel doesn't do something about this? It's called Proportional Representation. It results in constant minority governments, and the major parties desperate to cut deals with all those little extremist religious parties. If Israel has a FPP system they'd have a chance at a strong government which could tell the religious wackos where to get off.

No doubt. The OP just claimed this was an Israeli newspaper...and it isn't.

[Moonlight Graham]

You mean how long before they become more like Muslims?

If they become like Muslims...there will be peace at last!

Or maybe not. I hear Israelis and Palestinians yell at themselves in the mirror.

[KeyStone]

Doesn't change the unfortunate facts of what he's saying. Israel is ultimately doomed if the demographics continue as they are.

And how is it that Israel doesn't do something about this? It's called Proportional Representation. It results in constant minority governments, and the major parties desperate to cut deals with all those little extremist religious parties. If Israel has a FPP system they'd have a chance at a strong government which could tell the religious wackos where to get off.

This is hardly the fault of PR.

FPTP would allow the non-Orthodox Jews to have better representation only if

1)They had a geographic concentration in a few areas.

2)There were multiple right wing Orthodox groups to split the vote

As it stands now, under FPTP, they would likely have a majority in which case they could do what they want unchecked.

The problem will only get worse.

Perhaps the constant messaging by the Jewish lobby to refer to it as the Jewish state is going to come back and haunt them.

[Bob]

As DogOnPorch has stated, that's an American NYC newspaper, and that is quite ridiculous. I never thought they were so silly as to erase a female from a photo? I mean, really? That's certainly not typical, even from the ultra-orthodox. Very, very strange.

Israel certainly has a problem with its ultra-religious demographic, considering that this group tends to have worse statistics all around: greater dependence on welfare (which is connected to their much higher birthrate), extremely poor rates of enlistment into the army and national service, and lower rates of education. I wonder though, Post To The Left, will you levy the same criticism against the Arab demographic? Consider that the Arab demographic is similar - massive dependence on welfare (again connected to large families), virtually non-existent rates of enrollment into the army or national service, and lower rates of education. Worse still, they are much more highly represented with respect to crime.

You openly described all ultra-religious as "extremists", do you label the Arabs in the same manner? The Arabs in Israel are, by far, much more religious (on average) then the Jewish population. Are they extremists, as well? Overall, the damage done to Israel as the Jewish state is much more significant coming from the Arab sector.

Scotty, as far as telling the "religious wackos where to get off", Israel doesn't need a change in its political system - all it needs is a change in the political leadership. If Israeli political leadership was serious about forcing the ultra-orthodox demographic to get with the times and pull their own weight, it could be done. This has nothing to do with our electoral system.

[Post To The Left]

Der Tzitung is an American newspaper...not Israeli. NYC, in fact.

Wow, extremist Judaism has spread to America too. I just assumed it was Israeli as this is a common trend in Israel recently. For example here is Israeli newspaper Yated Neeman erasing female ministers and in a scene right of 1984 replacing them with males as apparently nothing is more offensive than a women with her ... FACE exposed, the horror.

[Post To The Left]

Israel certainly has a problem with its ultra-religious demographic, considering that this group tends to have worse statistics all around: greater dependence on welfare (which is connected to their much higher birthrate)

Isn't it their aim though? It's not they can't find jobs its that they don't want to work because its they're belief (supported by their religious leaders) that they shouldn't do anything but study biblical texts. Very similar to how Saudi Arabia pumps out millions of young Arabs with useless Islamic educations. They see themselves as the spiritual side of Israel that should be supported, cradle to the grave, and defended by the state of Israel.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Post To The Left

[Bob]

Again I ask whether you attach the same label of "extremist Islam" to a large portion (more than likely a majority) of Arabs who live in Israel and in the territories. If religious Judaism is described as "extremist" because of its conservative values, you're going to need to be consistent in the application of that term to other groups that exhibit highly conservative social behaviour.

You need to stop speaking about Israel as if you know this country and are familiar with its culture, with your ridiculous assertion of "common trends" in Israel. Highly-religious Jewish men interact with women regularly, and the choice to erase Hillary Clinton fro the photograph is something I cannot understand or explain. Even in ultra-orthodox circles, there should be nothing objectionable about Hillary's appearance in that photograph. You should come for a walk with me Jerusalem, if you want to see widespread religious "extremism". Arab men are always separated from Arab women, except in the context of family. I can tell you that I cannot recall one time when I saw Arab boys or men fraternizing with Arab girls or women outside of a familial context. EVER. The only exception to this has been Christian Arabs. The women almost all wear a hijab at a minimum, and although the vast majority of Arab women do not cover their faces, most of them wear long cloaks and do not wear jeans. We are speaking about a highly conservative religious society, here. Do you refer to them as extremists? Do you call to attention the broad negative effects they have on Israeli society?

There is certainly a big problem with the ultra-orthodox in Israel, especially with respect to them receiving a poor and largely useless (practically speaking) religious education and being unprepared to develop professionally. This is certainly the consequence of weak leadership that appeases them, rather than challenging them for their own shortcomings (Lieberman is much less deferential to the highly religious and has made statements justifiably critical of some of the things we've discussed here). You will not find in me an apologist for the ultra-orthodox here, but you should at least be consistent that the Arab population of Israel and in the territories, by and large, are equivalent counterparts to the ultra-orthodox Jewish population you are criticizing here.

[Scotty]

This is hardly the fault of PR.

FPTP would allow the non-Orthodox Jews to have better representation only if

1)They had a geographic concentration in a few areas.

2)There were multiple right wing Orthodox groups to split the vote

As it stands now, under FPTP, they would, likely have a majority in which case they could do what they want unchecked.

The problem will only get worse.

Perhaps the constant messaging by the Jewish lobby to refer to it as the Jewish state is going to come back and haunt them.

You are misapprehending the situation, understandably because of the OPs misuse of the terms. It's not orthodox Jews who are the problem. It is the ultra-orthodox, or Haradim, who currently make up about 8% of the population the OP is actually speaking about. They are religious fanatics, don't work, and don't serve in the military.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Scotty

[Scotty]

Scotty, as far as telling the "religious wackos where to get off", Israel doesn't need a change in its political system - all it needs is a change in the political leadership. If Israeli political leadership was serious about forcing the ultra-orthodox demographic to get with the times and pull their own weight, it could be done. This has nothing to do with our electoral system.

I'm sure you would agree, Bob, that the proportional rep and constant minorities gives them a political leverage far out of proportion to their numbers in society, and that this has a major impact on the willingness of the political leadership to confront them.

[Bob]

I'm sure you would agree, Bob, that the proportional rep and constant minorities gives them a political leverage far out of proportion to their numbers in society, and that this has a major impact on the willingness of the political leadership to confront them.

Even if I do accept that, we need to accept that a bold leadership is the only way to make a change. Let's suppose that such a proposal was brought forward to the Knesset (impossible, but for the sake of fantasy...), do you not think everyone would be smart enough to recognize what was really being done? It's just an attempt to sneak in an agenda to reduce the influence of a particular demographic in politics, which would be opposed by that demographic and its political allies of the day.

What we need in Israel is honesty and clarity of vision. We need a leader who will boldly say that the status quo of ultra-religious young people being ill-educated and unprepared for professional development upon completion of secondary school is UNACCEPTABLE. We can not longer tolerate a growing demographic that consumes more than it provides. Period. End of Story. Get your act together, Haredim, because state support is coming to an end for the benefit of the whole, as well as for the benefit of the Haredim. My honest opinion is that the little financial life support they receive from the state, as well as their exemptions from army service perpetuate their own shortcomings. I am quite certain that Haredi men who depend on state support and donation from charitable organization generally feel pathetic that they cannot provide a comfortable life to their families. And if they don't feel pathetic for being unable to earn a living because they have no legitimate education, then there's something wrong with them. Time for some tough love.

Same goes for the Arabs. They also take much more than they provide, the big difference is that they fundamentally oppose the social fabric of Israel - Zionism. That's a whole other bag of worms and I don't think I want to get into right now.

[BC_chick]

You openly described all ultra-religious as "extremists", do you label the Arabs in the same manner?

Yes.

[Shady]

Yes.

Good. Cause there's way more of 'em!

[Bob]

Yes.

So what do you do with them if they are a threat to well-being of the country and nation?

[BC_chick]

Bob, they're both a threat, extremists on both sides are. You like to pretend Palestinians are mostly extremists while Israelis are mostly not. Truth is, there are normal people on both sides who want to live in peace and there are the extremists on both sides that ruin it for everyone.

To the Ultra-Orthodox the no-compromise stance is a religious issue. God gave the Jews the land of Israel, how can you reason with that? Whenever there are peace talks, they are the loudest protesters on the Israeli side because they are so deluded by religion.

If you are protesting peace by obstructing it and taking justice into your own hands, aren't you a threat to the well-being of your nation?

[Bob]

Bob, they're both a threat, extremists on both sides are. You like to pretend Palestinians are mostly extremists while Israelis are mostly not. Truth is, there are normal people on both sides who want to live in peace and there are the extremists on both sides that ruin it for everyone.

To the Ultra-Orthodox the no-compromise stance is a religious issue. God gave the Jews the land of Israel, how can you reason with that? Whenever there are peace talks, they are the loudest protesters on the Israeli side because they are so deluded by religion.

If you are protesting peace by obstructing it and taking justice into your own hands, aren't you a threat to the well-being of your nation?

Let me guess, you think "normal" people exist in equal proportions on both sides? What are you basing that on beyond assumption?

Yes, the ultra-religious tend to view this as a religious issue, but that doesn't mean that all ultra-religious are opposed to all territorial compromise. They tend be less willing to relinquish territory in an agreement, which I generally agree with, but for them they are concerned about certain holy sites.

I don't know what "protesting peace" is. Do you mean rejecting "peace", as defined by people like yourself? I reject the false premise that this conflict is grounded in territory seized after the Six-Day War, which is inadvertently always the supposition advanced by those who promote the "land-for-peace" game.

[DogOnPorch]

Wow, extremist Judaism has spread to America too. I just assumed it was Israeli as this is a common trend in Israel recently. For example here is Israeli newspaper Yated Neeman erasing female ministers and in a scene right of 1984 replacing them with males as apparently nothing is more offensive than a women with her ... FACE exposed, the horror.

Yated Neeman would probably remove more than just females from their pages. Not a typical MSM newspaper.

[BC_chick]

Let me guess, you think "normal" people exist in equal proportions on both sides? What are you basing that on beyond assumption?

You are as strong as your weakest link. All I'm saying is that both teams are playing with some really weak players.

[Bonam]

Post to the Left definitely has some valid points, and I say this as a supporter of Israel. To point out the issues that Israel faces with the ultra-orthodox community is not a criticism of Israel as a whole. Israel will have to confront the issue head on within the next generation. You can't have an ever-growing segment of the population that is unproductive if you want to have a thriving country and economy. And Israel has to thrive, or it will be crushed by its enemies. With the political climate in Israel, the "bold leader" that Bob hopes for seems unlikely.

I predict that the issue with the ultra-orthodox community will not be acted upon until a time of direst necessity. In democracies, no one ever wants to make the hard decisions and face the political consequences while there is any possible hope of avoiding it or delaying it til the next guy. It is only when a situation is urgent and grim that real action is finally taken.

[Bob]

Post to the Left definitely has some valid points, and I say this as a supporter of Israel. To point out the issues that Israel faces with the ultra-orthodox community is not a criticism of Israel as a whole. Israel will have to confront the issue head on within the next generation. You can't have an ever-growing segment of the population that is unproductive if you want to have a thriving country and economy. And Israel has to thrive, or it will be crushed by its enemies. With the political climate in Israel, the "bold leader" that Bob hopes for seems unlikely.

I predict that the issue with the ultra-orthodox community will not be acted upon until a time of direst necessity. In democracies, no one ever wants to make the hard decisions and face the political consequences while there is any possible hope of avoiding it or delaying it til the next guy. It is only when a situation is urgent and grim that real action is finally taken.

I hope you're wrong, but I think you're right. Unless Israel gets a bold leader who can LEAD the country instead of being a prisoner of constituents, we'll see ongoing posturing and avoidance of hot-button issues. This is also true on the Palestinian side, but I just don't really care about them. We can define the future on our own terms without them with strong leadership, generally speaking.

[Saipan]

In the now iconic image of Obama looking on as the Osama operation went down it appears that Israeli newspapers have edited out Hilary Clinton, and another women present, so as to not offend the more conservative members of Jewish society

That may offend ONLY Islamic members of their (still) medieval society, who would want to seem them veiled.

Israel is in fact one country where women are regularly trained in military service.

So much for the Dark Ages Islam.

[Post To The Left]

That may offend ONLY Islamic members of their (still) medieval society, who would want to seem them veiled.

Israel is in fact one country where women are regularly trained in military service.

So much for the Dark Ages Islam.

Women are allowed in 88% of all roles in the IDF but for how long? How long before the religious councils of Israel force the government to ban women from the military, workplaces?

Already Jewish newspapers are censoring their newspapers, by removing women from pictures, so as to not offend Jewish men with pictures of women with their faces exposed. Jewish groups in Israel are exporting their extreme brand of Judaism around the world, much like how Saudi Arabia exports its extreme brand of Islam.

As DogOnPorch pointed out even in NEW YORK Jewish media are following Israeli trends of removing the "unclean" faces of women from their media.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Post To The Left