Ontario Fall election

[Oleg Bach]

The pedophile remark was mine! I'm entitled to use it as often as I want.

As for the sins of the federal conservatives, so what? What's your point?

"Let me off the hook, Mom! After all, my brother did it too!"

The Conservatives are politicians too, you know. Why do you imply that if one is wrong it should be forgiven because another politician of a different stripe also committed such a wrong?

When someone calls the police and they are told "Sorry! You're on your own! We will NOT come out!" then government has totally lost the right to command respect from its citizens.

Perhaps that's a significant difference between Canadians and Americans. If an American in New York read such a thing about a town in California, he would immediately get indignant! "That's un-American!" he would cry.

If a Canadian reads it as happening in a Canadian community, he will say "Well, it probably didn't happen that way!" or "Those newspapers exaggerate!" or sadly and even worse yet, the implications will just soar over his head...

Or worst of all: "I like natives so anything they do is right and justified and those townsfolk must have done something to ask for it!"

We are never going to achieve the dream of a "Star Trek" culture where race is irrelevant as long as this sort of thing keeps happening.

All the alliens on star trek have wierd lumps on their foreheads ...and stop with any stupid remarks - not that I noticed - but any thing to do with even the word "pedophile" is not welcome here.

[Wild Bill]

So you are lying. No one was denied police service. No one was told the police would not come.

This from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_River_land_dispute

"Since the occupation began, many Caledonia residents have complained that they have been subject to threats and violence from Native protesters and that the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) failed to take any action to protect them. David Brown, who lives with his wife near the disputed area, stated in court testimony in November 2009 that he was required to carry a native-issued passport and needed approval from the protesters to enter his own house. He also claimed that after arriving "after curfew" one day, he was denied entry and jailed by the OPP when he caused trouble by ignoring the natives. Brown alleged that Native protesters threatened and harassed him repeatedly and that rocks and mud were thrown at his family and their home. Brown and his wife are seeking $7 million dollars in a civil lawsuit against the OPP on the basis that the police did nothing to protect him and his family during the occupation.[31][32]

In response to Brown's claims, Crown lawyer David Felicient stated that the situation "must be understood against the backdrop of the unique character of aboriginal occupations and protests" and that the OPP were prevented from taking action due to "policy implications."[31] Felicient also suggested that Brown had fabricated portions of his testimony to draw attention to his lawsuit. When Felicient asked why Brown kept a loaded shotgun, Brown responded that "We were doing what we had to do to stay alive. I had no protection from our government. I felt that I needed to protect my wife and my family."[33]

In court testimony, OPP Inspector Brian Haggith stated that the Native protesters "set up a checkpoint... Almost like they were entering another country," and that community lost confidence in the OPP's ability to protect them. Haggith also testified that when natives set fire to a wooden bridge in town, the fire department withdrew from fighting the blaze when confronted by shouted death threats from the protesters. The fire chief told the OPP he did not believe they would protect him or his men if they went against the natives' wishes. In addition, a electrical substation was then destroyed, causing more than $1 million in damage and a blackout, when a truck crashed through its gates and was left ablaze. Once again, Haggith stated that there was little response from the police. Inspector Haggith also testified that he asked for a change in policy at a subsequent meeting he had with his OPP superiors but that his request was denied.[4]"

Here's a link to a youtube clip:

http://youtu.be/mLsdKJfp2Ro

It shows how when townsfolk, fed up because the OPP did nothing about native blockades, tried putting up some themselves. The OPP jumped on the townsfolk with both feet! Impartial justice, indeed!

A newspaper story:

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/peter_worthington/2010/10/27/15855826.html

"It is a horror story for ordinary people who were the victims of thuggery. But it's a greater horror story for the OPP which behaved with negligence, dereliction of duty and, yes, cowardice.

Officers on the job turned a blind eye to people being beaten, homes threatened, curfews imposed, road blocks established. On occasion, the OPP even refused to come to the aid of a fellow officer being beaten.

Officers who refused to intervene were only obeying orders.

Where have we heard that before!"

Here's an article from a law magazine:

http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/helpless-tells-only-half-the-story.html?print=1&tmpl=component

"Instead, Blatchford produces a damning narrative of a government and police force stunned into inaction for fear that one wrong move could trigger another Ipperwash tragedy. After an early attempt to clear the area resulting in a humiliating retreat, the provincial police force was all but paralyzed. As a result, many unfortunate residents of Caledonia — some of whom were forced to drive through occupier-run “checkpoints” to get to their own homes — were basically left to their own fates."

Here's some more about Dana Chatwell/Brown:

http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/updates/091209regional.html

A simple google shows pages and pages of this! Christie Blatchford's book "Helpless" contains all kinds of eyewitness accounts, with their names so that anyone can confirm the quotes.

And you say it never happened? I want some of what you're smoking!

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I was just called for a poll.

Rated all party leaders very unfavourable except the green party candidate.

Said I'd vote NDP as #1, Conservative as #2 and that I'm very likely to change my vote.

Also said that I'd never vote Liberal.

There's some of the margin of error for ya.

I thought it was funny though, the poor guy could barely speak english. Pronounced Dalton McGuilty. That will be one biased poll lol.

[charter.rights]

This from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_River_land_dispute

"Since the occupation began, many Caledonia residents have complained that they have been subject to threats and violence from Native protesters and that the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) failed to take any action to protect them. David Brown, who lives with his wife near the disputed area, stated in court testimony in November 2009 that he was required to carry a native-issued passport and needed approval from the protesters to enter his own house. He also claimed that after arriving "after curfew" one day, he was denied entry and jailed by the OPP when he caused trouble by ignoring the natives. Brown alleged that Native protesters threatened and harassed him repeatedly and that rocks and mud were thrown at his family and their home. Brown and his wife are seeking $7 million dollars in a civil lawsuit against the OPP on the basis that the police did nothing to protect him and his family during the occupation.[31][32]

In response to Brown's claims, Crown lawyer David Felicient stated that the situation "must be understood against the backdrop of the unique character of aboriginal occupations and protests" and that the OPP were prevented from taking action due to "policy implications."[31] Felicient also suggested that Brown had fabricated portions of his testimony to draw attention to his lawsuit. When Felicient asked why Brown kept a loaded shotgun, Brown responded that "We were doing what we had to do to stay alive. I had no protection from our government. I felt that I needed to protect my wife and my family."[33]

In court testimony, OPP Inspector Brian Haggith stated that the Native protesters "set up a checkpoint... Almost like they were entering another country," and that community lost confidence in the OPP's ability to protect them. Haggith also testified that when natives set fire to a wooden bridge in town, the fire department withdrew from fighting the blaze when confronted by shouted death threats from the protesters. The fire chief told the OPP he did not believe they would protect him or his men if they went against the natives' wishes. In addition, a electrical substation was then destroyed, causing more than $1 million in damage and a blackout, when a truck crashed through its gates and was left ablaze. Once again, Haggith stated that there was little response from the police. Inspector Haggith also testified that he asked for a change in policy at a subsequent meeting he had with his OPP superiors but that his request was denied.[4]"

Here's a link to a youtube clip:

http://youtu.be/mLsdKJfp2Ro

It shows how when townsfolk, fed up because the OPP did nothing about native blockades, tried putting up some themselves. The OPP jumped on the townsfolk with both feet! Impartial justice, indeed!

A newspaper story:

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/peter_worthington/2010/10/27/15855826.html

"It is a horror story for ordinary people who were the victims of thuggery. But it's a greater horror story for the OPP which behaved with negligence, dereliction of duty and, yes, cowardice.

Officers on the job turned a blind eye to people being beaten, homes threatened, curfews imposed, road blocks established. On occasion, the OPP even refused to come to the aid of a fellow officer being beaten.

Officers who refused to intervene were only obeying orders.

Where have we heard that before!"

Here's an article from a law magazine:

http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/helpless-tells-only-half-the-story.html?print=1&tmpl=component

"Instead, Blatchford produces a damning narrative of a government and police force stunned into inaction for fear that one wrong move could trigger another Ipperwash tragedy. After an early attempt to clear the area resulting in a humiliating retreat, the provincial police force was all but paralyzed. As a result, many unfortunate residents of Caledonia — some of whom were forced to drive through occupier-run “checkpoints” to get to their own homes — were basically left to their own fates."

Here's some more about Dana Chatwell/Brown:

http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/updates/091209regional.html

A simple google shows pages and pages of this! Christie Blatchford's book "Helpless" contains all kinds of eyewitness accounts, with their names so that anyone can confirm the quotes.

And you say it never happened? I want some of what you're smoking!

Dave Brown and Dana Chatwell were well known to be intoxicated sh$$t disturbers who made false alarm called the police on countless occasions. They were never denied police service however, because their house was being policed by Six Nation Police Services and THEY refused to be policed by natives.

You sources are corrupt and blatantly racist sites. And those townsfolk as you call them were rejected by the rest of Caledonia as sh$$t disturbers too.

Tell me which one is you?

[finnth]

I just took a read through the NDP platform and I don see where all the money is coming from for all their ambitions. Can anyone explain?

[Wild Bill]

Dave Brown and Dana Chatwell were well known to be intoxicated sh$$t disturbers who made false alarm called the police on countless occasions. They were never denied police service however, because their house was being policed by Six Nation Police Services and THEY refused to be policed by natives.

You sources are corrupt and blatantly racist sites. And those townsfolk as you call them were rejected by the rest of Caledonia as sh$$t disturbers too.

Tell me which one is you?

Newspapers, lawyer magazines, Wiki...yeah, I guess I picked the most racist! Interesting definition you appear to have of racism - anyone who disagrees with your revisions of reality!

For a better example of racism I suggest you look inward. You insist that one race is always and ever right and go so far as to discount the direct experience of thousands of people, revising history to your own biased viewpoint. You make a Jehovah Witness seem like the most open minded in the world!

I swear if Charles Eng was a native you'd call him a Sister Theresa!

The difference between us is that I can see good and bad in anyone, regardless of their race. Judging by your posts on this board, you have a problem in that area.

[charter.rights]

Newspapers, lawyer magazines, Wiki...yeah, I guess I picked the most racist! Interesting definition you appear to have of racism - anyone who disagrees with your revisions of reality!

For a better example of racism I suggest you look inward. You insist that one race is always and ever right and go so far as to discount the direct experience of thousands of people, revising history to your own biased viewpoint. You make a Jehovah Witness seem like the most open minded in the world!

I swear if Charles Eng was a native you'd call him a Sister Theresa!

The difference between us is that I can see good and bad in anyone, regardless of their race. Judging by your posts on this board, you have a problem in that area.

Don't be so childish.

Felicient also suggested that Brown had fabricated portions of his testimony to draw attention to his lawsuit.

Clearly Brown was interested in extorting as much as he could.

When Felicient asked why Brown kept a loaded shotgun, Brown responded that "We were doing what we had to do to stay alive.

And clearly he was a crackpot.

The numerous false alarms they made to the police supported the hysteria they were trying to generate.

The rest of your hyperbole isn't worth discussing.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I just took a read through the NDP platform and I don see where all the money is coming from for all their ambitions. Can anyone explain?

Can say the same about the conservative platform lol.

[mentalfloss]

I think I might just bite the bullet and vote Liberal this time.

Hudak is at least 10x the evil that McGuinty could ever be.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I think I might just bite the bullet and vote Liberal this time.

Hudak is at least 10x the evil that McGuinty could ever be.

McGuinty ahead of Hudak on Trust

Edited August 24, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[mentalfloss]

McGuinty ahead of Hudak on Trust

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dKIX09CE3Z0/TlIP6y-AlGI/AAAAAAAACRg/2xodIdQ-jCc/s1600/2011-08-18_hudak_hare_tortoise.png

Edited August 24, 2011 by mentalfloss

[MiddleClassCentrist]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dKIX09CE3Z0/TlIP6y-AlGI/AAAAAAAACRg/2xodIdQ-jCc/s1600/2011-08-18_hudak_hare_tortoise.png

Tim Hudak was in a position to walk to victory.

Nutcase Ford in Toronto doesn't help either.

[Guest Peeves]

Tim Hudak was in a position to walk to victory.

Nutcase Ford in Toronto doesn't help either.

Yeh that makes sense. The guy got elected on fiscal responsibility and you call him a nut case.

So what does that make Miller and the prior socialist regimes? Freaks or just radicals?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Yeh that makes sense. The guy got elected on fiscal responsibility and you call him a nut case.

Because he's a nutcase. Not because of his "fiscal responsibility" facade he put up to get elected.

He just wants to screw poor people.

[Wild Bill]

Because he's a nutcase. Not because of his "fiscal responsibility" facade he put up to get elected.

He just wants to screw poor people.

It seems people on the "left" just love to throw out stuff like this but I've never been able to find out WHY they think so!

It seems that any politician, in fact any PERSON at all who might be considered a conservative or more simply, NOT a socialist is an evil demon who loves to wreak hardship on poor people just for the evil joy of it! Apparently, they also eat kittens, too!

This is just simplistic drivel of the most ridiculous kind! It makes argument very easy, though. A socialist person is good and a non-socialist person is bad! This is also true for anything either one does or says!

Publicly hating non-socialists will make a socialist look like even MORE of a good person!

Frankly, to me it's all juvenile crap!

[charter.rights]

It seems people on the "left" just love to throw out stuff like this but I've never been able to find out WHY they think so!

It seems that any politician, in fact any PERSON at all who might be considered a conservative or more simply, NOT a socialist is an evil demon who loves to wreak hardship on poor people just for the evil joy of it! Apparently, they also eat kittens, too!

This is just simplistic drivel of the most ridiculous kind! It makes argument very easy, though. A socialist person is good and a non-socialist person is bad! This is also true for anything either one does or says!

Publicly hating non-socialists will make a socialist look like even MORE of a good person!

Frankly, to me it's all juvenile crap!

I agree. Playing the "I'm a Conservative and I'm the victim" crap is about as childish as you can get.

[William Ashley]

I laugh inside at the thought of all tiers of Government being Tory

Here are some comments on the PC platform

tax relief - vote winner - economic loser. (Ontario is in debt, how the hell are you going to cut taxes)

My Position: Ontario needs a debt tax to pay down the public debt so real lasting tax relief can be provided.

PC Position - Home Energy - subsidized electricity bills

My position The province should roll out public energy infrastructure on public bonds - people should be provided a bulk purchase rebate on energy.

Home solar shingles through a VERY LARGE monthly buyin to companies producing new homes - the province should "buy the roof space or provide free shingles for energy production on new housing start ups. As an aside people will get the energy produced from their roofs after the singles are paid down. Additionally a program for people who replace their rooves (when needed for shingling) would offer a energy advantage through bulk buyin prices of materials managed through the province, and graduated ownership buyin as above.

PC Position - Income Sharing - transfer taxes within a family group

My Position - not bad idea, but get rid of the income tax system - implement user fees and cycles. Set a "personal need amount" and require ACTUAL transfer of assets to REALLY share income. IF THEY ARN'T SHARING IT SHOULDN'T COUNT AS SHARED!

PC Position - tax cut on income tax - vote buyer.

My position - can't afford tax cuts.

PC position "HST and ecotax" - uh well keep HST but well pretend we are doing something.. ecotax gone

My Position - ecotaxes should be done at a federal level not provincial since they are economic.

PC Position - caregiver -- sounds almost liberal...

My position - it needs to be real

there is a start.

SO FAR -- VOTE BUYING TAX CUTS THAT ARE FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE = MORE DEBT OR CUT PROGRAMS.

Where is it coming from?

I laugh inside.

Edited August 29, 2011 by William Ashley

[Wild Bill]

My position The province should roll out public energy infrastructure on public bonds - people should be provided a bulk purchase rebate on energy.

Home solar shingles through a VERY LARGE monthly buyin to companies producing new homes - the province should "buy the roof space or provide free shingles for energy production on new housing start ups. As an aside people will get the energy produced from their roofs after the singles are paid down. Additionally a program for people who replace their rooves (when needed for shingling) would offer a energy advantage through bulk buyin prices of materials managed through the province, and graduated ownership buyin as above.

I laugh inside.

Well, on this one suggestion of yours I'm laughing on the outside!

Any techie knows that it ain't that simple! Your idea is too simplistic and won't work! Solar shingles have been around for a couple of decades. Last I looked the average roof would cost about $40,000. Do you really think that's affordable?

What's more, the provincial grid is not developed enough to handle all those homes feeding that power into it. You're talking BILLIONS of investment to modernize the grid!

The other option is to have that solar roof provide power for just that home. Unfortunately, you need more than just the solar cells. You need a big battery bank to store the power and electronic circuitry to charge the batteries without overcharging and also to convert the DC of the solar cells into 120 volt AC power for the home. More expense!

Don't feel bad, though. Dalton McGuinty understands even less than you and felt perfectly qualified to commit the provincial taxpayers to his unworkable programs!

[bloodyminded]

It seems people on the "left" just love to throw out stuff like this but I've never been able to find out WHY they think so!

It seems that any politician, in fact any PERSON at all who might be considered a conservative or more simply, NOT a socialist is an evil demon who loves to wreak hardship on poor people just for the evil joy of it! Apparently, they also eat kittens, too!

This is just simplistic drivel of the most ridiculous kind! It makes argument very easy, though. A socialist person is good and a non-socialist person is bad! This is also true for anything either one does or says!

Publicly hating non-socialists will make a socialist look like even MORE of a good person!

Frankly, to me it's all juvenile crap!

You've got to be kidding.

The amount of vitriol focussed towards some entity called "the Left"--here on this board--outshines attacks on conservatives by probably three to one. And I'm being generous.

(And none of these deep thinkers had yet deemed it necessary to even delineate what "the Left" is. To Pliny and Shady, it's everyone from Noam Chomksy to Hitler to Hillary Clinton. For August1991, it's expanded all the way to Pinochet and Milton Friedman! (I still can't believe that one.) For a few of our more hardcore righties, it includes you, as well, WB. "The left! the left!" The obssession is cherished, deep-rooted, and knows no bounds. I think these folks long for the days of the Cold War, frankly.)

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Conservatives leave the light on at night.

They can't sleep with the huge bogey man in their closet.

Who would have thought that workers rights, helping the disadvantaged and not only caring about the environment but, investing in it would be so scary to some people.

[Topaz]

I can't see how anyone can vote for Hudak, he's another John Tory. I heard hime today, he thinks if he says all the rights things to the middle class Ontarians like tax cuts, we will rush to the polls and vote for him. Tax cuts isn't going to do it. How about spending our money wisely instead. Hudak helped Harris do what he did to Ontario and my memory isn't that short. Minority government for Ontario.

[Boges]

I can't see how anyone can vote for Hudak, he's another John Tory. I heard hime today, he thinks if he says all the rights things to the middle class Ontarians like tax cuts, we will rush to the polls and vote for him. Tax cuts isn't going to do it. How about spending our money wisely instead. Hudak helped Harris do what he did to Ontario and my memory isn't that short. Minority government for Ontario.

This is a stupid post. Typical of a McGuinty supporter.

Dalton doesn't give a flying fuck about the Ontario middle-class.

First of all the sole reason John Tory lost was because he stupidly thought that perhaps people should have fairness in regards to being able to send their children to faith-based schools. It certainly wasn't his economic policy that sank him.

I frequently listen to John Tory on the radio in Toronto. He's far from a Blue Tory. Today he was ballwashing McSqiggly about his platform for re-introducing house calls for doctors. He thinks toll roads in Toronto is a good idea.

I don't think Tory supporter are looking for too many tax relief measures. We just want the obvious trend of much higher taxes and costs to be slowed or stopped. Dalton has already pledged to increase hydro bills and he plans to pay Samsung far above market rate for electricity that is pretty unreliable. Should he get another mandate there is no reason for him to keep his word after in the election either.

All these "Green Jobs" he pledges is code word for publically subsidized jobs that can't sustain themselves.

Why is the idea that this province has a spending problem ignored by you people. McGuinty has increased spending by 70% since he's been in power. He's in the pocket of all the public service unions in the province. He said he'd freeze public wages and most sectors have since received healthy increases at a time when many in the private sector have lost their jobs.

What about when Daddy Dalton planned to build a power station in Oakville but because they were rich it was a swing Liberal riding they said they didn't actually need to station. Then a few kms down the 401 he now says he'll build one in Mississauga.

He's a lying piece of garbage and I pray this sob story that some modest tax relief is going to ruin this province doesn't get him elected for a third time.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I can't see how anyone can vote for Hudak, he's another John Tory. I heard hime today, he thinks if he says all the rights things to the middle class Ontarians like tax cuts, we will rush to the polls and vote for him. Tax cuts isn't going to do it. How about spending our money wisely instead. Hudak helped Harris do what he did to Ontario and my memory isn't that short. Minority government for Ontario.

We can only hope.

[Wild Bill]

You've got to be kidding.

The amount of vitriol focussed towards some entity called "the Left"--here on this board--outshines attacks on conservatives by probably three to one. And I'm being generous.

(And none of these deep thinkers had yet deemed it necessary to even delineate what "the Left" is. To Pliny and Shady, it's everyone from Noam Chomksy to Hitler to Hillary Clinton. For August1991, it's expanded all the way to Pinochet and Milton Friedman! (I still can't believe that one.) For a few of our more hardcore righties, it includes you, as well, WB. "The left! the left!" The obssession is cherished, deep-rooted, and knows no bounds. I think these folks long for the days of the Cold War, frankly.)

There is an important difference, BM! You're quite correct that there is mudslinging on both sides. Still, from my perspective the difference is that the right mocks the Left's ideas as being impractical or loopy. The Left seems to be virtually entirely ad hominem - non-left people are labeled as conservatives and thus are EVIL PERSONS!

The Right mocks ideas and the Left mocks the individual people!

That is the major reason why in my 58 years I have never been attracted to the Left. I just never could respect them for their personal attacks. That's why I've come to believe most leftwing people today have a religious faith rather than a political philosophy. They don't just disagree with their opponents, they demonize them!

[bloodyminded]

There is an important difference, BM! You're quite correct that there is mudslinging on both sides. Still, from my perspective the difference is that the right mocks the Left's ideas as being impractical or loopy. The Left seems to be virtually entirely ad hominem - non-left people are labeled as conservatives and thus are EVIL PERSONS!

The Right mocks ideas and the Left mocks the individual people!

I think it's just a matter of perspective, then. You could be correct about what you're hearing aimed at conservatives, but you're wrong about how you perceive conservative debating behaviour. Dead wrong. The hatred is palpable.

I have learned that I"m immoral, that I don't care about people because of my "elitism" (this from blatant worshippers of elite wealth and power, interestingly), that I'm an anti-semite, and many other surprising facts.

Those aren't ideas: that's me.

Besides, blaming "the left" for Hitler, Pinochet and Milton Friedman do not comprise "ideas": it's wilfull stupidity, premised on the tautology that "if sumpin's bad...it must be liberal!"

That is the major reason why in my 58 years I have never been attracted to the Left. I just never could respect them for their personal attacks.

But the personal attacks from the political Right aren't a problem? Oh, wait...they don't exist!

Edited August 30, 2011 by bloodyminded