Ontario Fall election

[Guest Derek L]

I suppose so. Truthfully, I've never looked at their platform. It's enough I have to keep up with the campaign of the two main parties with a sprinkling of the NDP's.

I’ve looked, briefly at the BC and federal greens, and their fiscal statements/policies always remind me of those of the Joe Clark era PCs (and a number of former PCs have went Green) with a sprinkling of the magic economic dust used by Social Credit…

[capricorn]

Hudak must stop campaigning this minute. Otherwise, he'll completely destroy Ontario's future green energy prospects by driving green energy businesses out of the province.

"We currently have 85 employees and customers visiting and calling daily. Orders are coming in and we are proud of our international reputation for building quality products."

McGuinty, speaking at a media event at a wind power plant in Windsor, said the fact the company has gone through their inventory faster than they expected was "good news."

But he also blamed the Progressive Conservatives and the New Democrats for "putting a bit of a chill" on the green enrgy sector. Both parties have been critical of the Liberals' green energy plans. The PCs have said they would scrap McGuinty's Green Energy Act.

"The opposition wants to stop this industry. They want to stop these jobs," McGuinty said.

Recently, Liberal cabinet minister Laurel Broten, subbing for McGuinty, blamed layoffs and production slowdowns in Ontario’s green energy sector on a “chill” caused by PC Leader Tim Hudak.

This, Broten claimed, because Hudak has promised to cancel McGuinty’s green energy deal with Samsung, along with his ruinously expensive FIT (“feed-in-tariff”) program for new renewable energy generators.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/09/20/dalton-leads-the-stupid-green-men

There will be plenty of household chill this winter when Ontarians have to lower the thermostat during peak hours to keep hydro bills manageable.

[RuralWatcher]

How dare Hudak stop the wind turbine companies from slapping a turbine up 551 metres away from my home with ZERO consultation.

[capricorn]

I can understand your concern Rural Watcher.

"It's all a series of lies," says John Laforet, president of Wind Concerns Ontario (WCO). Wind and solar energy is neither clean nor efficient, he says. "What is really disturbing is that it appears this Liberal government is operating in a culture of willful blindness at the most senior level including the Ministers of Environment, Health and inside the Premier's office."

WCO is a coalition of 53 grass-roots citizens groups across 38 Ontario counties and districts, which presides over regular meetings in various communities across the province. WCO has launched a website www.windyleaks.comto release and feature what it calls "revealing documents through

Ontario's fall election campaign to educate voters on the Ontario Liberals' dishonesty on the impacts of industrial wind turbines." At WCO information sessions, charts are displayed showing that since each turbine is backed up by a gas generator for when the winds don't blow, which is up to 40% of the time, there is really little or no reduction in carbon dioxide emissions.

Armed with information about how wind turbines kill wildlife, make people sick, destroy property values and don't cut greenhouses gases, WCO speakers talk up the unpleasant side effects of renewable energy projects. The nasty part of wind power includes how the Wolf Island turbines on the Bay of Quinte on the north shore of Lake Ontario west of Kingston kill scores of bats and birds. And, in Prince Edward County, turbine installers have asked for permission from the Ministry of the Environment enabling them to kill the rare Blanding's Turtle if necessary. In the pristine wilderness of Lake Superior north of Thunder Bay, several thousand trees are to be clear-cut to make way for wind turbines.

At a project in Ripley, several residents who signed contracts with Enercor to install wind turbines on their land found they couldn't live with the swoosh noises of the rotating turbine blades, signed buyouts (with gag orders attached so they can't reveal details of the agreements) and fled to new homes. A former dean of medicine at the University of Western Ontario, Dr. Robert McMurtry, says he has identified 135 cases of illness related directly to the industrial wind turbines and is calling for a study of the health impacts of wind turbines.

http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3301465

It's anybody's guess how these wind turbines will affect property values.

[Wild Bill]

I suppose so. Truthfully, I've never looked at their platform. It's enough I have to keep up with the campaign of the two main parties with a sprinkling of the NDP's.

I've paid some attention, particularly to their 'talking heads' on the radio and tv. They sound much more practical than they used to on economic matters.

My big difference is that they don't seem to always understand the technical details of their "green" solutions. They sound like mere academics with little or no hands-on background, maximizing the "dirtiness" of present energy generation methods and minimizing that of their "solutions". They also take a LOT for granted in how well their suggestions will work in the real world, or how cost-effective they will be.

So I can live with their economics, for the most part. I think they need some time to attract more hands-on people into their platform development committees before this "Utilitarian" could vote for them.

That day would come a lot sooner for me if they would drop the ridiculous scam idea of carbon trading! They are positing that governments are qualified to set pricing for an artificial market they themselves would create. Past history makes it overwhelmingly obvious that governments are neither qualified nor honest enough to do such a task.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Wild Bill

[RuralWatcher]

It's anybody's guess how these wind turbines will affect property values.

I know people who have had their assessments cut in half.

[William Ashley]

The CBC has issued a provincial version of its federal vote compass.

http://votecompass.cbc.ca/en

Once you have answered all questions, your answers are tabulated and a graph shows where you fit in the political spectrum. I was placed in the economic right of the graph.

A statistic is provided on how much you agree with the parties.

My result:

PC 75%

Green 56%

Liberal 50%

NDP 35%

Statistic on your overall rating of the leaders (I suppose that's out of a possible total of 10):

My result:

Hudak 5.3

Horwath 1.7

McGuinty 0.7

The CBC may have learned a lesson over the criticism of their federal vote compass. This one seems way less partisan.

How Much You Agree with the Parties

GRN

64%

LIB

51%

PC

51%

NDP

43%

[Bonam]

You've got to be kidding.

The amount of vitriol focussed towards some entity called "the Left"--here on this board--outshines attacks on conservatives by probably three to one. And I'm being generous.

Did you see the post WB was quoting and replying too?

[charter.rights]

How dare Hudak stop the wind turbine companies from slapping a turbine up 551 metres away from my home with ZERO consultation.

It isn't McGuinty or the Liberal government that allows that anymore than Hudak will be able to do anything about it. It is the law under the Green Energy Act and the setbacks were compiled from extensive studies on noise and effect of wind turbines.

You could just as easily have you neighbour built a mega pig farm, or 1,000,000 plus chicken farm within 300m of your house and you not only is there no requirement for consultation, but there is nothing you can do about it either even if you complained.

[charter.rights]

I know people who have had their assessments cut in half.

Bull.

[RuralWatcher]

It isn't McGuinty or the Liberal government that allows that anymore than Hudak will be able to do anything about it. It is the law under the Green Energy Act and the setbacks were compiled from extensive studies on noise and effect of wind turbines.

There's just as many studies that say there's issues up to 1km or more. I don't know what to believe.

But I feel for the people who have signed contracts and won't necessarily be protected by a setback. One farmer I know will have a turbine about 175m from his house.

Bull.

They live in the Ripley area.

Edited September 21, 2011 by RuralWatcher

[scribblet]

I can understand your concern Rural Watcher.

http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3301465

It's anybody's guess how these wind turbines will affect property values.

Badly, and McGuinty has had to buy out some homeowners, and one family is suing.

http://windconcernsontario.wordpress.com/

[MiddleClassCentrist]

How Much You Agree with the Parties

GRN

64%

LIB

51%

PC

51%

NDP

43%

LIB

59%

GRN

54%

NDP

53%

PC

44%

[MiddleClassCentrist]

double post

Edited September 22, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[RuralWatcher]

Badly, and McGuinty has had to buy out some homeowners, and one family is suing.

http://windconcernsontario.wordpress.com/

Buy out and gag. If there's no problem with the turbines, why forbid the people from talking? Why have to buy them out in the first place? There's just too many questions for me to feel anything but uneasy when it comes to a gigantic wind turbine in my backyard.

Well, not MY back yard per se, but the landowner next to me.

Edited September 22, 2011 by RuralWatcher

[Wild Bill]

Buy out and gag. If there's no problem with the turbines, why forbid the people from talking? Why have to buy them out in the first place? There's just too many questions for me to feel anything but uneasy when it comes to a gigantic wind turbine in my backyard.

Well, not MY back yard per se, but the landowner next to me.

Making the gag order part of a buyout deal is really over the top! If that doesn't indicate a cover up on the part of McGuinty's government I don't know what does!

The fact that he could even THINK of doing such a thing makes me question if he has any values at all! Of course, after Caledonia I should already have known. The man seems utterly without any firm character of any kind.

[charter.rights]

Making the gag order part of a buyout deal is really over the top! If that doesn't indicate a cover up on the part of McGuinty's government I don't know what does!

The fact that he could even THINK of doing such a thing makes me question if he has any values at all! Of course, after Caledonia I should already have known. The man seems utterly without any firm character of any kind.

There was no "gag order" and RuralWatcher is running afraid over the top. He admittedly knows little about wind turbines or their effects and is simply replacing an ill-informed opinion for the facts.

The fact is that wind turbine effects have been studied in Ontario for the last 10 years and there is little evidence of any adverse health effects. I have no doubt that their presence is felt by some (based on anecdotal evidence) but the mental anguish that some like RuralWatcher experience is entirely in their own heads.

Edited September 22, 2011 by charter.rights

[capricorn]

The fact that he could even THINK of doing such a thing makes me question if he has any values at all! Of course, after Caledonia I should already have known. The man seems utterly without any firm character of any kind.

WB, here's what McGuinty said in an interview when asked about Caledonia.

Q: This hasn’t been an election issue yet, but we’ve had a lot of letters about the alleged double-standard of justice shown in Caledonia, where native lawlessness was allowed to go unchecked. How do you respond to that.

A: There is a long-standing dispute between the First Nations and Ottawa, and we did our very best to maintain the peace as these two parties try to overcome the challenge. I think we did that fairly well. I’m proud of how our police handled that. Some days I thought I should issue them all blue helmets for their peacekeeping.

Q: You say you’re proud of the police. But many of them weren’t proud of themselves. The job of the police is to enforce the law. They weren’t doing that. Peacekeeping is the military’s job.

A: I don’t agree with that. We’re all human beings. We don’t do things perfectly, and I’m sure there’s something we can learn from this.

Q: People felt terrorized in their homes, that law and order had broken down and the province had done nothing because they were more concerned with the public relations of being in a fight with the natives.

A: I don’t see it that way. And it’s always for us to pass judgment. But the police are on the frontlines. I have confidence in their judgment.

Q: That’s not quite fair. That makes sense in a sudden emergency. But this festered for years.

A: I expect the police to be fair.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/09/22/what-dalton-mcguinty-told-the-national-post-editorial-board/

Trust McGuinty to compare cops in Caledonia to UN international peacekeepers.

[Shwa]

Trust McGuinty to compare cops in Caledonia to UN international peacekeepers.

Trust McGuinty to be mindful of the fact that an innocent person was killed by police in a similar dispute under the watch of his PC predecessor.

[charter.rights]

WB, here's what McGuinty said in an interview when asked about Caledonia.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/09/22/what-dalton-mcguinty-told-the-national-post-editorial-board/

Trust McGuinty to compare cops in Caledonia to UN international peacekeepers.

Of course the questions are leading and presenting a fallacy argument....

The responsibility of the Police in a civil society is first and foremost to keep the peace. Essentially that is the purpose of laws through protections they offer against harm against the person, property or public good. The law is an ass, that carries the burden of ensuring that any law created or exercise has as its basis one of the basic principles of keeping the peace.

Six Nations has a valid dispute and under the law exercise their right of proprietary estoppel to stop development on their land. Police did their job, by first keeping the likes of Gary McHale and his white supremacist buddies from creating riots and violent conflict. In many cases the OPP had to face the Clownadonians to do this. In other cases many charges were laid and the courts found either the accused were not guilty or their acts were not violent. Those are the facts.

[Wild Bill]

Six Nations has a valid dispute and under the law exercise their right of proprietary estoppel to stop development on their land. Police did their job, by first keeping the likes of Gary McHale and his white supremacist buddies from creating riots and violent conflict. In many cases the OPP had to face the Clownadonians to do this. In other cases many charges were laid and the courts found either the accused were not guilty or their acts were not violent. Those are the facts.

I shouldn't even talk to you but I'l give it one more try and hope you'll be civil.

McHale didn't even set foot in Caledonia until long after the riots and violence started! What are you trying to do? Use him as a convenient straw man while you rewrite history?

And even if those imaginary racists were real, how does that justify putting an old man into the hospital and leaving him with permanent brain injuries?

You simply excuse anything the protesters did. You'd champion Charles Eng if he were a native.

[jacee]

I shouldn't even talk to you but I'l give it one more try and hope you'll be civil.

McHale didn't even set foot in Caledonia until long after the riots and violence started! What are you trying to do? Use him as a convenient straw man while you rewrite history?

And even if those imaginary racists were real, how does that justify putting an old man into the hospital and leaving him with permanent brain injuries?

You simply excuse anything the protesters did. You'd champion Charles Eng if he were a native.

That incident was entirely regrettable and wouldn't have happened if he'd vacated the site when police told him to.

The courts have dealt with that. Homeowners have been compensated too. What else do you expect?

I know some people expect native land claims disputes to be dealt with as if they are entirely illegal, but they are not. When people organize against them, trouble will happen. That's the message of Caledonia: Stay the hell away and let the police handle it. Without the local pressure for removal of people from the site, there would have been no violent OPP raid, no baricades, no violence. The responsibility for violent escalation in Caledonia lies squarely at the feet of the local population, business community and Council, who chose to act in feigned ignorance of Six Nations's concerns and rights.

[Topaz]

In my area we have hundreds of the turbines and the word out there is, the farmers get 15,000 per turbines and the bigger the farm the more so that a farm could retire from farming having 10+. Since they are leasing their land its concerned a business and with business you have write offs, so depending on the financial outlook on the farmer, they could be a millionare in 10 years or less. There's too many people that are going to benefit from the Green energy, so Hudak is playing with fire when he said about canning it!

[charter.rights]

I shouldn't even talk to you but I'l give it one more try and hope you'll be civil.

McHale didn't even set foot in Caledonia until long after the riots and violence started! What are you trying to do? Use him as a convenient straw man while you rewrite history?

And even if those imaginary racists were real, how does that justify putting an old man into the hospital and leaving him with permanent brain injuries?

You simply excuse anything the protesters did. You'd champion Charles Eng if he were a native.

Talk about fallacy arguments...geez....

1. There were NO riots in Caledonia. There was a police action that was repelled without much resistance by an overwhelming number of residents showing up after the failed injunction raid.

2. McHale showed up with racist invective on discussion boards and media forums just about the day after that failed raid. He organized and enticed the white supremacists long before he ever made a physical presence in Caledonia. That is his tactic.

3. The Stirling Woods subdivision reclamation where Sam Gualtieri was injured was a different subdivision and a different protest. While it demonstrate an escalation of the Six Nations protest, a couple of protesters were charged and only 2 convicted of assault for their part. That is hardly indicative of the Caledonia protest and was a situation that could have been avoided had Sam Gualtieri actually complied with the law to vacate the subdivision.

4. McHale became and still is an instigator of hate and lawlessness. The OPP had his number and so did Six Nation protesters. He singled himself out the minute he embedded himself and his racist friends into the dispute. The reality is that he has never had any standing in the dispute. He lied and he deliberately misled people into believing he was a rights savior and a religious man. Both are complete lies.

Finally, you really need to wak up WB. You have had your head buried in your haas for so long that you are actually starting to think all those delusions and fears you have been telling yourself are real. They aren't. And like McHale your opinion and fabrications hold no standing in the discussion. When you start being factual, then maybe we can talk some more.

[Wild Bill]

That incident was entirely regrettable and wouldn't have happened if he'd vacated the site when police told him to.

The courts have dealt with that. Homeowners have been compensated too. What else do you expect?

I know some people expect native land claims disputes to be dealt with as if they are entirely illegal, but they are not. When people organize against them, trouble will happen. That's the message of Caledonia: Stay the hell away and let the police handle it. Without the local pressure for removal of people from the site, there would have been no violent OPP raid, no baricades, no violence. The responsibility for violent escalation in Caledonia lies squarely at the feet of the local population, business community and Council, who chose to act in feigned ignorance of Six Nations's concerns and rights.

Do you have any idea how much of an inconvenience it was to have the main highway into the town blocked? To have your electricity gone for days? Setting aside the presence of townspeople, why were TV cameramen beaten up and robbed of their equipment?

You make everything sound like something out of a dry history textbook. These were real people! You should read Blatchford's book "Helpless". You are arguing without much information, or at least information only from one side.